Clearpath Servo motors for CO2 Laser cutter

[Storen]

I don't want to discourage you because this seems as a very interesting project, but I want to mention some potential problems you may want to keep in mind.

The typical Chinese actuators (rails, carriages, etc.) are not suitable for high speed applications. Not to mention the notoriously low quality control. Be prepared for some disappointments with this.

The heads offered on cloudraylaser are for cutting. My honest opinion is - Unless you are willing to design you own head you won't be able to achieve stable scanning speeds anywhere near your target. Take a look at some of the high-speed machines and the head design they are using.

You haven't mentioned what type of laser source you intend to use but I am assuming it will be a DC (direct current) tube. The DC lasers suitable for cutting are not a good choice for engraving and vice versa. The problem is the power fluctuation especially during ignition.
RF lasers are the ideal solution as they don't suffer from any tradeoffs but are quite pricy... Personally I consider using a RF laser "it's a must" for good quality engraving.

I am concerned that using expensive SERVO may be an overkill when combined with typical low-end Chinese components. Using inexpensive Steppers maybe just fine in your scenario. By the way this is the reason why the Chinese factories almost never use SERVOs.

[Teknic_Servo]

Hi nick_the_builder,

I'm an Applications Engineer at Teknic. I noticed this thread and wanted to provide some input that may be helpful.

Like you've mentioned, sizing a servo really comes down to the torque and speed required for the application. It sounds like you have a good handle on the speed requirement by knowing your desired peak speeds and the mechanics of your machine.

Unlike motor RPM, required torque tends to be more difficult to predict, let alone calculate.. While many have commented on this thread that the servo in your link may be overkill for your machine, which may be true, sizing or choosing the right motor ultimately depends greatly on the size and weight of the mechanics, and the desired accelerations of your machine etc.

If you expect your load weights, mechanics, and move requirements are similar to the machine in that video, you could try reaching out to the video creator to see what ClearPath model he used. He may also be willing to use the built in diagnostic features that allow ClearPath to accurately measure how much motor torque and RPM is required – this way you would know for sure how much torque you will need and if you motor is indeed overkill.

When you have a better idea about the required torque, you can use our online motor selection tool to narrow down your options (https://www.teknic.com/products/clea...lection-guide/). If you have further questions, feel free to reach out to us directly through our "contact us" form (https://www.teknic.com/contact/) or call us at 585-784-7454.

Good luck with the rest of your build!

Best regards,
Matt C. - Teknic Servo Systems Engineer

[Dean448]

Just some comments on speed:
My machine is set up to rapid at 300mm/s
Cut at 12mm/s and that depends on material and thickness
engraving I’m at 20mm/s
raster engraving I’m at 300mm/s
Is this way below other machines?

Lasers are actually made up of a series of light pulses. So if you want a light cut but try to speed the cut up, it shows up as a series of dots. Like any other cutting process there is a limit to how fast you can go and in this case the laser is the limit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Storen]

Is this way below other machines?

No, these are very typical speeds for Chinese gantry machine. I was using almost the exact same speed settings on my old machine.

The high-end machines would be much faster but of course would be more expensive. A specialized machine for engraving could easily go beyond 2000mm/s.

[hanermo]

The 2m/s is something picked out of a marketers arse.

The fast machines today might do 3g acceleration or 20m/min, note not second but minute.
About 0.3 m/second.
And that is for a rapid, not an actual move.

With something industrial that costs 500k$ and masses many tons - because it has to, for the acceleration.

It is really, really, really hard to make something very rigid and light, like the current industrial laser systems.
You are unlikely to be able to do anything similar.
But You don´t need to.

Any basic modern ac servo of 200W+ will deliver exceptional accuracy, acceleration, and precision.
And they can usually be driven with s/d controls just like steppers - really easy.

If You actually develop a more stiff gantry, please contact me.
I will sell it for a boatload of money to be paid to You.
Anyone able to make a gantry clearly stiffer /lighter than an optical table has a tens of millions contract in front of them.
Working prototype, some type of drawing, and not unobtanium like spider silk required.
And an exclusive deal.

Of course one can try on their own - and get at most a vapid silly few thousand payment for a half-assed try.
If lucky, and very persistent.

I´m a consultant:
As professionals, we would get about 100x - 10.000x income for a/the gantry idea/system license vs a private deal, with a 10% comission.
Weve done many successful deals like that - past 20 years.
If anyone can make a stiff gantry -- they have business.

With our law office we have done business with over 60 countries in past few years.
And about 30-40% of all Spains national golden visas for investors, done by us.

If anyone is the phileas fogg or the aristotele and actually comes up with a great new gantry or material, please get in touch.
We don´t want money up front, and are obviously serious.

avalanding.es ask for hanermo

[Andreiir]

There are solutions , search for kimla fiber laser can have speeds to 5m/s and 6G , the best way to achieve 2m/s is with linear servo , but there are more expensive , and the co2 tube i dont think can work that fast , because it have a little delay .

[asuratman]

you can take a look at this link for comparison.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000...239&fromDetail

[nick_the_builder]

I don't want to discourage you because this seems as a very interesting project, but I want to mention some potential problems you may want to keep in mind.

The typical Chinese actuators (rails, carriages, etc.) are not suitable for high speed applications. Not to mention the notoriously low quality control. Be prepared for some disappointments with this.

The heads offered on cloudraylaser are for cutting. My honest opinion is - Unless you are willing to design you own head you won't be able to achieve stable scanning speeds anywhere near your target. Take a look at some of the high-speed machines and the head design they are using.

You haven't mentioned what type of laser source you intend to use but I am assuming it will be a DC (direct current) tube. The DC lasers suitable for cutting are not a good choice for engraving and vice versa. The problem is the power fluctuation especially during ignition.
RF lasers are the ideal solution as they don't suffer from any tradeoffs but are quite pricy... Personally I consider using a RF laser "it's a must" for good quality engraving.

I am concerned that using expensive SERVO may be an overkill when combined with typical low-end Chinese components. Using inexpensive Steppers maybe just fine in your scenario. By the way this is the reason why the Chinese factories almost never use SERVOs.

Storen, you are not discourage me, the opposite.
Thank you very much for your tips. I appreciate it and also from the other guys.
As I know a good rail system can take very high speeds and if you buy the original HIWIN they are good. For other Chinese rail systems to be honest I don't know the quality. I saw a video from Chieftek manufacturer that they can take about 10M/sec.
As for the laser head, I don't know the differences between a cutting head and an engraving head but I found on the net some good lasers by Epilog (Fusion) or Trotec (Speedy) and yes they use their own designs. It will not be difficult to design my own laser head but I must know the differences between them and it's something that I can't found on the net as info.
The laser that I want to build is for cutting at about 70% and the rest 30% for engraving jobs. I don't want to have the photo resolution engraving as some very expensive lasers in the market but the high speed is one of the advantages that I would like to have on both cutting/engraving processes.

The laser source will be a 60W co2 tube, not RF.

I fully understand why the Chinese companies almost never they use Servo but in my scenario when I build something I'm trying to build it as good as I can do, to work with that for years without major problems. Many of the parts tha you can find on the market are from China (Laser head, Tube, etc) at a reasonable price but when you can find some other parts like motors Made in USA for example and they have many advantages I will choose them. I agree with many of you that may they are overkill but I will stop think that the motors will not move the axis perfectly.

Last years I have a CNC machine that I upgraded the controller with the Gecko G540 and after that my CNC is completely different machine. I stopped to think about for problems like losing steps.
My first hought for the laser was to use the Gecko GR214V Bulletproof drive, it's an expensive tool but from when I found the Teknic Servo I'm thinking that it will work much better.

I hope to understand my opinion and thank you again for your posts, feel free to tell me what you are think about it.

Hi nick_the_builder,

I'm an Applications Engineer at Teknic. I noticed this thread and wanted to provide some input that may be helpful.

Like you've mentioned, sizing a servo really comes down to the torque and speed required for the application. It sounds like you have a good handle on the speed requirement by knowing your desired peak speeds and the mechanics of your machine.

Unlike motor RPM, required torque tends to be more difficult to predict, let alone calculate.. While many have commented on this thread that the servo in your link may be overkill for your machine, which may be true, sizing or choosing the right motor ultimately depends greatly on the size and weight of the mechanics, and the desired accelerations of your machine etc.

If you expect your load weights, mechanics, and move requirements are similar to the machine in that video, you could try reaching out to the video creator to see what ClearPath model he used. He may also be willing to use the built in diagnostic features that allow ClearPath to accurately measure how much motor torque and RPM is required – this way you would know for sure how much torque you will need and if you motor is indeed overkill.

When you have a better idea about the required torque, you can use our online motor selection tool to narrow down your options (https://www.teknic.com/products/clea...lection-guide/). If you have further questions, feel free to reach out to us directly through our "contact us" form (https://www.teknic.com/contact/) or call us at 585-784-7454.

Good luck with the rest of your build!

Best regards,
Matt C. - Teknic Servo Systems Engineer

Thank you for your post Matt.
It will be the first time that I will use a servo motor and I don't know how much Torque I need to have. How can I calculate it?
May this motor that I'm thinking is overkill but from your experience could you inform me if this will be a problem? the less is a problem, the more?
I sent a message to the video creator but he didn't answer me.

I will check also your links and if I have more questions I will contact with you Matt, thank you!

The 2m/s is something picked out of a marketers arse.

The fast machines today might do 3g acceleration or 20m/min, note not second but minute.
About 0.3 m/second.
And that is for a rapid, not an actual move.

With something industrial that costs 500k$ and masses many tons - because it has to, for the acceleration.

It is really, really, really hard to make something very rigid and light, like the current industrial laser systems.
You are unlikely to be able to do anything similar.
But You don´t need to.

Any basic modern ac servo of 200W+ will deliver exceptional accuracy, acceleration, and precision.
And they can usually be driven with s/d controls just like steppers - really easy.

thank you for your reply and for the info.
To be honest, I don't know if I will achieve this speed but if I can do that I will contact with you for your proposal.

Now on the market we have to Laser companies, Trotec that can achieve 3.4M/sec and Epilog with the Fusion that it can achieve 4.5M/sec.
Both of them they use servo motors (smaller than Teknic), linear rails and their gantry system doesn't look very rigid.
I think that it's possible to have the 2M/sec and with a more rigid gantry system.

The only thing that I cannot understand on them is the motor to belt driving system. Both of them have a small pulley on the motor that drives a larger pulley. It looks like a 4:1 reduction but the big pulley has a smaller one on the opposite side that drives the belt. For example the motor pulley 16T, the big pulley 64T and the belt pulley 32T.
Why they do that? With the reduction system they increase the torque but lose from speed. The third pulley (32T) works as a gear? Maybe I'm wrong.

There are solutions , search for kimla fiber laser can have speeds to 5m/s and 6G , the best way to achieve 2m/s is with linear servo , but there are more expensive , and the co2 tube i dont think can work that fast , because it have a little delay .

I'm not for Kimla fiber laser, they are not for me but thank you for your info.
The delay on CO2 tube comes from the design of the tube or from the Tube Power supply?
Thank you.

[fixtureman1]

As for the cutting engraving heads They are the same. You can change lenses to get deeper cuts but most use a 2 inch or 59mm focal length

[nick_the_builder]

As for the cutting engraving heads They are the same. You can change lenses to get deeper cuts but most use a 2 inch or 59mm focal length

Yes, as I know the bigger difference between cut and engrave comes from the lences and the standard for both of them is the 2". This is what I'm thinking to buy.
Thank you!

[cinematic2]

Using Servo motors for glass lasers is loosing money.

[zentus]

Storen, you are not discourage me, the opposite.
Thank you very much for your tips. I appreciate it and also from the other guys.
As I know a good rail system can take very high speeds and if you buy the original HIWIN they are good. For other Chinese rail systems to be honest I don't know the quality. I saw a video from Chieftek manufacturer that they can take about 10M/sec.
As for the laser head, I don't know the differences between a cutting head and an engraving head but I found on the net some good lasers by Epilog (Fusion) or Trotec (Speedy) and yes they use their own designs. It will not be difficult to design my own laser head but I must know the differences between them and it's something that I can't found on the net as info.
The laser that I want to build is for cutting at about 70% and the rest 30% for engraving jobs. I don't want to have the photo resolution engraving as some very expensive lasers in the market but the high speed is one of the advantages that I would like to have on both cutting/engraving processes.

The laser source will be a 60W co2 tube, not RF.

I fully understand why the Chinese companies almost never they use Servo but in my scenario when I build something I'm trying to build it as good as I can do, to work with that for years without major problems. Many of the parts tha you can find on the market are from China (Laser head, Tube, etc) at a reasonable price but when you can find some other parts like motors Made in USA for example and they have many advantages I will choose them. I agree with many of you that may they are overkill but I will stop think that the motors will not move the axis perfectly.

Last years I have a CNC machine that I upgraded the controller with the Gecko G540 and after that my CNC is completely different machine. I stopped to think about for problems like losing steps.
My first hought for the laser was to use the Gecko GR214V Bulletproof drive, it's an expensive tool but from when I found the Teknic Servo I'm thinking that it will work much better.

I hope to understand my opinion and thank you again for your posts, feel free to tell me what you are think about it.




Thank you for your post Matt.
It will be the first time that I will use a servo motor and I don't know how much Torque I need to have. How can I calculate it?
May this motor that I'm thinking is overkill but from your experience could you inform me if this will be a problem? the less is a problem, the more?
I sent a message to the video creator but he didn't answer me.

I will check also your links and if I have more questions I will contact with you Matt, thank you!



thank you for your reply and for the info.
To be honest, I don't know if I will achieve this speed but if I can do that I will contact with you for your proposal.

Now on the market we have to Laser companies, Trotec that can achieve 3.4M/sec and Epilog with the Fusion that it can achieve 4.5M/sec.
Both of them they use servo motors (smaller than Teknic), linear rails and their gantry system doesn't look very rigid.
I think that it's possible to have the 2M/sec and with a more rigid gantry system.

The only thing that I cannot understand on them is the motor to belt driving system. Both of them have a small pulley on the motor that drives a larger pulley. It looks like a 4:1 reduction but the big pulley has a smaller one on the opposite side that drives the belt. For example the motor pulley 16T, the big pulley 64T and the belt pulley 32T.
Why they do that? With the reduction system they increase the torque but lose from speed. The third pulley (32T) works as a gear? Maybe I'm wrong.



I'm not for Kimla fiber laser, they are not for me but thank you for your info.
The delay on CO2 tube comes from the design of the tube or from the Tube Power supply?
Thank you.

Nick, I don't think a DC glass tube can switch quickly enough to give a decent quality engrave when you go at speeds much greater than 1 m/s. That's why all the fast higher end machines from Trotec and Epilog, etc use RF laser sources which can switch quickly.

I have Trotec, Epilog and ThunderLaser machines and am building both a glass tube, stepper based laser for cutting and an RF, servo based laser for engraving.