Looking for a Laser


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  1. #1
    Shabalala
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    Default Looking for a Laser

    Hi,

    I need to engrave text on paint. So for example, I have an undercoat and then a top coat and I need to remove just the top coat layer and not go through all the way to the underlying material.

    I'm looking in the various types of lasers and CO2 is the most common, but I'm more interested in Fiber and perhaps a simple diode laser might also do the trick? Based on what I'm reading it should be cheaper and less hassle setting up.

    Question is, who sells these things? Most are in the 4Kw range, but that is probably way overkill for what I'm trying to do!

    These are the only ones that I have managed to find thus far:

    https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_...laser&_ipg=200

    i.e. some brand called JSDU and the wattages seem perfrect for what I'm trying to do.

    Any suggestions?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Quote Originally Posted by Shabalala View Post
    Forget about it.

    CNC lasers, constructions, service


  3. #3
    Shabalala
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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Quote Originally Posted by cinematic2 View Post
    Forget about it.
    What's wrong with them?



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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Talk to George at Endurance Laser. His units are way better than the Chinese ones, at about the same price (or cheaper). His ratings are accurate - i.e. his 8W is actually 8W and can run continually at 8W, where the Chinese 15W are lower powered than his 8W and can’t run continuously. Endurance lasers: a usefull attachment for your 3D printer / CNC machine

    Plenty of positive reviews of his units - more under his other brand name L-Cheapo Lasers.

    A 10W diode laser of his on its own would cost US$695 complete (add x/y mechanism and controller and PSU), an engraving machine complete with 10W diode is $995 in DIY.

    Being an electronic genius I opted for the ‘kit’ laser, which requires assembly/soldering. Less than half the price of an assembled laser unit. Endurance laser kit - EnduranceLasers

    But, for engraving/etching paint, 10W is probably overkill.

    I’m just putting together a 5.6W diode laser cutter for card/paper/foam cutting and can try a piece of painted whatever. What is painted and what is it painted with? How big does your work area need to be and how fast do you want to work?

    If you have an existing CNC router, you can add a focusable laser diode to the existing tool head.

    If you need a large work area, making a unit like the Openbuilds ACRO is really easy. A 60”x60” unit is ~$500 with motors, controller, etc. http://openbuildspartstore.com/openbuilds-acro-system/

    I designed and am building my own in the spirit of complet budget build: https://openbuilds.com/threads/laser.12231/

    I’m anticipating total build cost at around $300 plus the laser diode. My shortest axis is 500mm, you can scale to whatever size extrusion you can buy.

    If you want to discuss, drop me a line



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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Quote Originally Posted by Shabalala View Post
    What's wrong with them?
    Wrong type of laser.

    You want visible light, and the lower the frequency (nm), the better result you’ll get, at your price point. If it was me, I would be looking <500nm, which really means 445/450nm. It’s cheaper and works better for your stated needs.

    From your eBay link, you are in Australia? I’m (almost) in the same timezone.



  6. #6
    Shabalala
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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Quote Originally Posted by ledaero View Post
    Talk to George at Endurance Laser. His units are way better than the Chinese ones, at about the same price (or cheaper). His ratings are accurate - i.e. his 8W is actually 8W and can run continually at 8W, where the Chinese 15W are lower powered than his 8W and can’t run continuously. Endurance lasers: a usefull attachment for your 3D printer / CNC machine


    Plenty of positive reviews of his units - more under his other brand name L-Cheapo Lasers.


    A 10W diode laser of his on its own would cost US$695 complete (add x/y mechanism and controller and PSU), an engraving machine complete with 10W diode is $995 in DIY.

    Thanks for the suggestion. From what I read, diode lasers are more expensive and last less than fiber lasers. So I think I prefer fiber lasers over diodes at least at the moment, but good to see an actual product with a price attached to it. Haven't found other alternatives thus far.


    Quote Originally Posted by ledaero View Post
    But, for engraving/etching paint, 10W is probably overkill.

    Noted


    Quote Originally Posted by ledaero View Post
    I’m just putting together a 5.6W diode laser cutter for card/paper/foam cutting and can try a piece of painted whatever. What is painted and what is it painted with? How big does your work area need to be and how fast do you want to work?


    If you have an existing CNC router, you can add a focusable laser diode to the existing tool head.

    Does it matter what is painted if I'm not planning to go down to the paint? I'm not 100% sure about what sort of paint at this stage. I think it's going to be automotive paint but I'm not a paint expert so I can't narrow that down. So perhaps tests are a bit too early but thanks for the gracious offer (I would definitely be interested in finding out whether it's able to cut balsa however!). In terms of work area, pretty much no bigger than my current CNC machine offers. Speaking of which, why did you decide to build a separate machine rather than strapping on a laser to your existing CNC machine?




    Quote Originally Posted by ledaero View Post
    I’m anticipating total build cost at around $300 plus the laser diode. My shortest axis is 500mm, you can scale to whatever size extrusion you can buy.

    The biggest problem with building your own machine is the time it takes from the project you're building it for. Doing everything yourself is fun, but slows down the end goal.




    Quote Originally Posted by ledaero View Post
    Wrong type of laser.


    You want visible light, and the lower the frequency (nm), the better result you’ll get, at your price point. If it was me, I would be looking <500nm, which really means 445/450nm. It’s cheaper and works better for your stated needs.


    From your eBay link, you are in Australia? I’m (almost) in the same timezone.

    I tried looking for information that would explain frequency selection, but it's very hard to come by. Perhaps contacting manufacturers of lasers directly for this information is the correct approach.


    Yes in Australia.

    Last edited by Shabalala; 05-15-2018 at 10:16 PM.


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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Quote Originally Posted by Shabalala View Post
    Thanks for the suggestion. From what I read, diode lasers are more expensive and last less than fiber lasers. So I think I prefer fiber lasers over diodes at least at the moment, but good to see an actual product with a price attached to it. Haven't found other alternatives thus far
    Generally not. A fibre laser at the same power as a laser diode in the range you need for engraving and cutting small objects is always going to be more expensive. There’s been a rapid evolution in metal cutting from CO2 to fibre to diode recently and now diodes are being used where we used to use 150W CO2 lasers, cheaper than either co2 or fibre, with less maintenance and longer life, The diode used in the endurance lasers I referred to before should last 10,000 running hours at full power. A fibre laser uses a diode and a doped optical pigtail, and while they claim 100,000 hours life, you are comparing a KW laser with a mW laser and are priced accordingly. To get a long-lifed fibre laser at the same power as a laser diode suitable for engraving will cost many times the price of the diode.

    So, compare like for like, the diode laser is simple, cheap, robust and long-lifed. And in the event you want more power, a different sort of power, different frequency, etc., replacing the actual diode with a different one is a few dollars - an 8000mW diode on its own is around $US35

    Does it matter what is painted if I'm not planning to go down to the paint? I'm not 100% sure about what sort of paint at this stage. I think it's going to be automotive paint but I'm not a paint expert so I can't narrow that down. So perhaps tests are a bit too early but thanks for the gracious offer (I would definitely be interested in finding out whether it's able to cut balsa however!). In terms of work area, pretty much no bigger than my current CNC machine offers. Speaking of which, why did you decide to build a separate machine rather than strapping on a laser to your existing CNC machine?
    Doesn’t matter to me one bit, as I’m now unlikely to be testing for you, but if I had had some of whatever it was lying around, I would have done some ‘sizing’ tests to get a general idea of the power you would need.

    My CNC is dusty and dirty and noisy. My paper/foam/fabric worktable is not, that’s the reason for a different machine. I may put a diode on the Ox so I can mark and engrave at a later date. I also wanted to experiment with different toolchains than I use for CNC routing. Specifically I wanted to try and make it ‘appliance-like’ with wireless and Bluetooth.

    I already had about 30M of v-slot aluminium banging around, spare motors, controllers, etc. and I thought it was something my wife, the clothing designer/tailor, might be interested to have a go on - but she stays well away from the noise and dust of the wood shop.

    I also wanted to see if I could design a small machine, with only two motors and minimal parts but a big work area - A2, in this instance, but if I find a source of A1 or A0 card, I can make it bigger with simply putting in a bigger piece of extrusion, as long as the cantilever balances.

    My mock-up is easily stored flat against the wall, is light and easy to put on any flat surface. I just use a sheet of12mm MDF as both a counterbalance and spoil board.

    [The biggest problem with building your own machine is the time it takes from the project you're building it for. Doing everything yourself is fun, but slows down the end goal.
    My goal was to design a cost-effective small laser cutter

    I tried looking for information that would explain frequency selection, but it's very hard to come by. Perhaps contacting manufacturers of lasers directly for this information is the correct approach.
    I found all I needed researching online, as you are currently doing. The laser pointer forums were the most useful, I found.

    [Yes in Australia.
    So not a lot of Aussie-made components. More than Borneo, though.



  8. #8
    Shabalala
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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Quote Originally Posted by ledaero View Post
    Generally not. A fibre laser at the same power as a laser diode in the range you need for engraving and cutting small objects is always going to be more expensive. There’s been a rapid evolution in metal cutting from CO2 to fibre to diode recently and now diodes are being used where we used to use 150W CO2 lasers, cheaper than either co2 or fibre, with less maintenance and longer life, The diode used in the endurance lasers I referred to before should last 10,000 running hours at full power. A fibre laser uses a diode and a doped optical pigtail, and while they claim 100,000 hours life, you are comparing a KW laser with a mW laser and are priced accordingly. To get a long-lifed fibre laser at the same power as a laser diode suitable for engraving will cost many times the price of the diode.


    So, compare like for like, the diode laser is simple, cheap, robust and long-lifed. And in the event you want more power, a different sort of power, different frequency, etc., replacing the actual diode with a different one is a few dollars - an 8000mW diode on its own is around $US35

    Thanks for the info.


    Quote Originally Posted by ledaero View Post
    My CNC is dusty and dirty and noisy.

    My suggestion to this is to use a vacuum cleaner of some sort as you cut, that way you collect the dust immediately at the source and this makes the work area completely pristene.


    Quote Originally Posted by ledaero View Post
    My paper/foam/fabric worktable is not, that’s the reason for a different machine. I may put a diode on the Ox so I can mark and engrave at a later date. I also wanted to experiment with different toolchains than I use for CNC routing. Specifically I wanted to try and make it ‘appliance-like’ with wireless and Bluetooth.


    I already had about 30M of v-slot aluminium banging around, spare motors, controllers, etc. and I thought it was something my wife, the clothing designer/tailor, might be interested to have a go on - but she stays well away from the noise and dust of the wood shop.


    I also wanted to see if I could design a small machine, with only two motors and minimal parts but a big work area - A2, in this instance, but if I find a source of A1 or A0 card, I can make it bigger with simply putting in a bigger piece of extrusion, as long as the cantilever balances.

    Gocha, makes sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by ledaero View Post
    I found all I needed researching online, as you are currently doing. The laser pointer forums were the most useful, I found.

    Sounds promising.



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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Quote Originally Posted by Shabalala View Post
    My suggestion to this is to use a vacuum cleaner as you cut, that way you collect the dust immediately at the source and this makes the work area completely pristene
    We probably have different grades of ‘pristine’. When working with paper and glue, even ‘invisible’ dust can ruin a workpiece.

    Maybe I should replace my industrial dust collecting cyclone system with a vacuum cleaner - good tip



  10. #10
    Shabalala
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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Wow a cyclone isn't enough for a clean area, yes our levels of pristine are certainly different in that case.



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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    The cyclone pulls most of the debris, but I use a lot of MDF and that stuff gets everywhere. I don't have a hepa filter.

    Plus the CNC machine isn't the only woodworking tool in the shop. Hard to hold a vacuum tube in one hand and sandpaper in the other and do a good job...



  12. #12
    Shabalala
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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    1.) Why do George's units cost so much if a diode costs just $35US?


    2.) What about something like this:


    https://www.laserglow.com/R53#


    Why is a DPSS laser, specifically, how is it different to a simple diode? I had a look on wikipedia and if I'm reading this right, this is basically a YAG laser?

    3.) What is the best laser wavelength for copper?

    4.) Does anyone have any leads on software for galvo systems? I have some quotes of software that costs thousands, but am wondering if there is something cheaper available that i haven't stumbled onto?

    Last edited by Shabalala; 05-24-2018 at 05:38 AM.


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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    That module you linked to is probably $1200-1500 in 5W, $2500+ in 10W>

    Its funny that you think Endurance are expensive.

    This one is rated at 10W, but it is probably 8W and that is probably pushed from 5-6W.

    It won’t run continuously, maybe 2Hr at the most.

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10w-laser-module-big-power-laser-head-10w-DIY-laser-520nm-green-light-450nm-blue-light/32611137579.html

    Look at some comparison videos of Chinese vs US or Endurance lasers at the same rating.

    They lie.

    From the biggest US wholesaler of laser diodes:

    To get 5 plus watts of blue power you have to go to a multi laser diode module (see attached brochure). We offer a 13W blue laser diode module (see attached), but it is not really for hobby type applications. In single quantities a 13W blue module is $4500.00.




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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Further - copper is actually very hard to cut with any laser. Easier to cut stainless than copper, easier to cut stainless than aluminium.

    The copper melts, rather than vaporising, and the heat is transmitted really fast to the sheet.

    Google ‘cutting copper with laser’ - there’s bound to be some info. You can etch painted copper sheets with a laser, but your etching the paint and then using chemistry to remove the unwanted copper from the boards.



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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Quote Originally Posted by Shabalala View Post
    but am wondering if there is something cheaper available that i haven't stumbled onto?
    Nothing serius.

    CNC lasers, constructions, service


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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    With a full respect - you are trying to buy lawnmower and use it as off-roader. Wrong tool. Of course you can experiment, but this will be not productive solution. Most of small LED laser have unexpected working time, and big % of them are sold with peak possible power announced as "power". Many people complain about 5W / 10W LED lasers stops work after 1-2 months and new model fitted blows even after few days. If you are rich enough you can try, but probably there are better way to mark painted material.

    Polish @ Éire


  17. #17
    Shabalala
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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Quote Originally Posted by ledaero View Post
    Its funny that you think Endurance are expensive.


    This one is rated at 10W, but it is probably 8W and that is probably pushed from 5-6W.


    It won’t run continuously, maybe 2Hr at the most.


    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10w-...611137579.html


    Look at some comparison videos of Chinese vs US or Endurance lasers at the same rating.


    They lie.


    From the biggest US wholesaler of laser diodes:

    I have attached an image of the rough breakdown of the cost of materials for this laser (items in red don't have a cost estimate but it won't be a lot). It's all at most $150USD. How they priced it at $800 is beyond me.


    Yes maybe they can deliver the rated power, but it's still much too expensive for what it is, which is just basically raw materials stuck together. The link I provided maybe costs 1200-3000, but those units are engineered properly and you get your money's worth which I can't say the same for these units.


    Quote Originally Posted by cinematic2 View Post
    Nothing serius.
    Dang. I think everything points to meaningful galvo machines being too expensive for my needs/plans.


    Quote Originally Posted by abyss View Post
    With a full respect - you are trying to buy lawnmower and use it as off-roader. Wrong tool. Of course you can experiment, but this will be not productive solution.

    I don't think I follow. I know that what I'm trying to do is done professionally with lasers, so I think lasers are the right tool for the job, the question is which one and how much. Let me know if I'm missing something.


    Quote Originally Posted by abyss View Post
    Most of small LED laser have unexpected working time, and big % of them are sold with peak possible power announced as "power". Many people complain about 5W / 10W LED lasers stops work after 1-2 months and new model fitted blows even after few days. If you are rich enough you can try, but probably there are better way to mark painted material.

    This is making me even more apprehensive about endurance. I know they use japanese lasers, but that's not the part I'm most worried about. It's all the other engineering that was carried out.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Looking for a Laser-cost-breakdown-jpg  
    Last edited by Shabalala; 05-25-2018 at 05:58 AM.


  18. #18
    Shabalala
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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Quote Originally Posted by abyss View Post
    With a full respect - you are trying to buy lawnmower and use it as off-roader. Wrong tool. Of course you can experiment, but this will be not productive solution. Most of small LED laser have unexpected working time, and big % of them are sold with peak possible power announced as "power". Many people complain about 5W / 10W LED lasers stops work after 1-2 months and new model fitted blows even after few days. If you are rich enough you can try, but probably there are better way to mark painted material.
    Oh didn't read the response carefully enough. Yes I think I follow now. Basically what you're saying is don't be cheap when buying a laser.

    Last edited by Shabalala; 05-26-2018 at 09:35 PM.


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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    Quote Originally Posted by Shabalala View Post
    Basically what you're saying is don't be cheap when buying a laser.
    Not exactly. More - don't believe basic information provided by sellers.
    For example laser which was sold by supplier as "2W LED laser" has module which was supplied by manufacturer who wrote:
    "The laser has an ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM of >2W and should only be run at this level for very short times. Additional cooling techniques would be advisable if you want to run for extended periods at this high power. 1 amp at ~1.2W will allow for longer “on” times and will not degrade the laser as quickly. Thermal issues are the number one reason for catastrophic failure of the laser. [...] The laser diode will operate at its optimal level for thermal performance at 1 amp and an output of 1W. Additional current above this level will lead to possible degradation of the laser output and thermal damage if additional precautions for thermal management are not taken." Of course laser seller do NOT mention this time limitation. At this stage when you are going to LED laser sources with usable level of power they comes (at this moment, May 2018) really expensive. I was considering fitting additional head to my CO2 laser just for "low power engraving & LONG time" (up to real full time 7.5-10W) and there was no acceptable solution with warranty of full-time working over 2 years in 1000$ price range (just for the head with PSU, not whole laser/plotter machine!). But there is a progress in industry, so maybe within next months/years it will be possible.

    P.S. Unfortunately there is a no much information about LED laser expected life time, so is a harder to make a business calculation if is worth to go for particular model.

    Polish @ Éire


  20. #20
    Shabalala
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    Default Re: Looking for a Laser

    I see, thanks for the information, very useful. I came very close to falling into your described trap.



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