5 axis cnc design

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    Default 5 axis cnc design

    Hello everyone, i think i have yet publish some related post.
    I’m designin a 3d printable 5 axis cnc desktop size in order to work with metal milling (as aluminium)

    The software that I’m using are: Blender/Solidworks (for the 3d design), Mastercam 2017 (for milling strategy) and Mach3 (for control the machine throug the computer)

    I have many questions, sorry if the post is a little bit long but I just start to learn about cncs:

    1. About Mastercam, do you know if can I import my stl machine file in order to use the same machine for the simulations that i’m gonna use for work (put my slt cnc desing into Mastercam) or we just can use the default machine? How do i set the measures working area and holders?

    2. For working with metals, wich steppers, and motor for cutting, breakboard and electronics in general do you reccomend me? How should i do all the maths? How can i know how strong should be the motor used for milling
    I though to use Nema 17 for the movement of the rotational platform and everything and a nema 34 for cutting.



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  2. #2
    Member awerby's Avatar
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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    Unfortunately, this design of yours won't work for cutting metals. It's not the motors; those are the least of its problems. But the frame would be inadequate even if it were welded steel, not printed plastic. And the unsupported round rails would disqualify it even if the frame was rigid enough. If you wanted to carve small pieces of foam, this could work to some extent, though.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    Unfortunately, this design of yours won't work for cutting metals. It's not the motors; those are the least of its problems. But the frame would be inadequate even if it were welded steel, not printed plastic. And the unsupported round rails would disqualify it even if the frame was rigid enough. If you wanted to carve small pieces of foam, this could work to some extent, though.
    The frame i though to build it in metal, i dont understand what do you mind with unsupported round rails, they will be of 10mm steel.
    Why do you think that the frame or structure in general is not able to cut soft metals as aluminium?
    Which features have to have a 5 axis cnc for metal cutting? Is not that i dont trust on you answer is that i want to learn and to understan about this and modify my design
    What should i have to change?


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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    Think of guitar strings - they're made of metal too, but they vibrate when strung between two points and disturbed. Those rods (and you seem to be using a lot of them) will do the same thing when the spinning end of the tool contacts the metal it's supposed to cut. Supported round rods would be better, but if you really want to cut metals, then well-supported profile rails would be pretty much required. That means enhancing your frame with heavy pieces of metal to mount them on, which would also brace it up a bit.

    You said you planned to use a 3D printer to produce this machine. Did you mean one that prints in metal? There are such things, but they're quite expensive. Any plastic in the working parts of this machine will degrade its function. People get away with plastic parts in 3D printers because there's no resistance to the action of depositing melted plastic on a plate. Cutting things - especially metals - is different; there's a lot of resistance to cutting, which is expressed in vibrations that can be quite intense. The action of smoothly removing material with a cutting tool is disrupted if the tool tip is moving erratically when it's trying to cut. The result is poor cut quality and broken tools. A CNC mill has to be extremely rigid to work right; the more joints and axes it has, the stiffer each of them has to be, so 5-axis mills need to be built more heavily than 3 or 4-axis ones.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default 5 axis cnc design

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    Think of guitar strings - they're made of metal too, but they vibrate when strung between two points and disturbed. Those rods (and you seem to be using a lot of them) will do the same thing when the spinning end of the tool contacts the metal it's supposed to cut. Supported round rods would be better, but if you really want to cut metals, then well-supported profile rails would be pretty much required. That means enhancing your frame with heavy pieces of metal to mount them on, which would also brace it up a bit.

    You said you planned to use a 3D printer to produce this machine. Did you mean one that prints in metal? There are such things, but they're quite expensive. Any plastic in the working parts of this machine will degrade its function. People get away with plastic parts in 3D printers because there's no resistance to the action of depositing melted plastic on a plate. Cutting things - especially metals - is different; there's a lot of resistance to cutting, which is expressed in vibrations that can be quite intense. The action of smoothly removing material with a cutting tool is disrupted if the tool tip is moving erratically when it's trying to cut. The result is poor cut quality and broken tools. A CNC mill has to be extremely rigid to work right; the more joints and axes it has, the stiffer each of them has to be, so 5-axis mills need to be built more heavily than 3 or 4-axis ones.
    Ok, after read this, i will modify something and explain you better about the meassure, thickness, and material in each part, because the picture showed it was just the sketch.
    Let me explain better my idea because i didnt know that cncs structural mechanic was like that so thank you very much, anyway structure and mechanics are sonething that with a better design and building plan can be solved.

    And what about motor used for cutting, steppers, breakboard, how to hold the metal block into the plate software (mastercam)
    What and how do you recommend me to set it?
    Thanks again


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    Last edited by antonio_gt; 04-24-2018 at 08:02 PM.


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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    Hi again, leaving appart the design of the structure, rails etc, which motors do you use to the drill and for the movement of the axis fot cutting aluminium?


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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    It's really best to figure out the structure of the machine first, and worry about the motors and electronics afterwards. Things can change a lot in the course of designing - and redesigning - a CNC machine, and parts you thought you could use may need to be repurchased. Or the whole project could be abandoned, at which point you'll be glad you didn't sink a lot more money in it.

    Eliminate all those unsupported round rods, replace them with profile rails that mount on solid pieces of ground-flat steel securely integrated into your frame, and things will work a lot better. As you're working on this, you can do some more research into spindles, steppers, control systems, etc. There's a lot to learn, and the more you know the fewer costly mistakes you'll make.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    It's really best to figure out the structure of the machine first, and worry about the motors and electronics afterwards. Things can change a lot in the course of designing - and redesigning - a CNC machine, and parts you thought you could use may need to be repurchased. Or the whole project could be abandoned, at which point you'll be glad you didn't sink a lot more money in it.

    Eliminate all those unsupported round rods, replace them with profile rails that mount on solid pieces of ground-flat steel securely integrated into your frame, and things will work a lot better. As you're working on this, you can do some more research into spindles, steppers, control systems, etc. There's a lot to learn, and the more you know the fewer costly mistakes you'll make.
    I got it, thank you very much again, so after take a look of the types of linear guide rails i found these (pictures) which should you reccomend me?
    And what about rails of the drill motor? They wont be ground sopported, after weekend i will show the modifications and i’ll specify which material would be each part and piece.
    All the bearing will be in metal
    Do you think also that this frame work is adecuate for this project (all metal)


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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    The "Hong Yi" type of linear bearing rectangular trucks and profile rails (and the one above it) are what you need (although not necessarily that brand). Forget about the round "Thompson" type of rails if you want to cut metals. But they still need a solid and extremely flat surface to mount on; that's what I was suggesting Blanchard-ground steel plates for (like these: https://www.industrialmetalsupply.co...ecut-squares#1). You can screw them into your frame to make a more solid structure than you have now. Use this system to mount all your rails: the ones under the trunnion, the ones that span the arch, and the ones that run the spindle up and down. If all you want to cut is aluminum, you can use a VFD-controlled high-speed spindle/motor combo unit with collets (I suppose that's what you mean by a "drill motor"). But if you want to cut harder metals like steel, you need a spindle that can deliver high torque at low speeds.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default 5 axis cnc design

    Good night, after taking a look about some parts of the cnc like the trunnion, well i cannot make the 3d parts in metal, so i just have 2 options:
    1º print in PETG or similar (strong material for 3d printing) the pieces in blue in the pictures (i dont trust a lot in this option)
    2º buy a trunnion full metal made in aliexpress

    The thing is, im completely new and ofcourse ingnorant in this matter, i just want to build a machine to cut pieces designed in 3d in aluminium, but i dont know where to buy parts or directly a machine as the one which i found in aliexpress but is quite expensive without motor to cut.

    In the other hand, the VFD controller i think this motor is too big to install in my motor holder in the design and also heavy
    Take a look of the meassures that i have in my design i dont know if i can set it with screws
    And also what about this motor wire connector?

    What do you reccomend me? Buy a full built
    machine?
    Build myself design buying the trunnion in metal and the VFD controller?
    Print in 3d with PETG the trunnion and buy the missing parts?


    In pictures (blue = 3d printed)








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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    I don't really like those cheap Chinese trunnions, but they'd be better than something you printed yourself in plastic. Likewise, the machine you found is likely to disappoint you with its performance (or lack thereof) but it will probably work better than what you've designed so far. If you don't have the ability to make parts in metal yet, then it's unlikely you're going to build a metal-cutting machine that will work well. If you use high-quality electronic components, though, you can probably build a better motion-control system than that mill would normally come with. That spindle can probably cut aluminum to some extent, but they often come without proper grounding, so be careful of shocks when you put power to it. An air-cooled model might be easier to set up.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    I don't really like those cheap Chinese trunnions, but they'd be better than something you printed yourself in plastic. Likewise, the machine you found is likely to disappoint you with its performance (or lack thereof) but it will probably work better than what you've designed so far. If you don't have the ability to make parts in metal yet, then it's unlikely you're going to build a metal-cutting machine that will work well. If you use high-quality electronic components, though, you can probably build a better motion-control system than that mill would normally come with. That spindle can probably cut aluminum to some extent, but they often come without proper grounding, so be careful of shocks when you put power to it. An air-cooled model might be easier to set up.
    So leaving appart the chinese machine and my design, how is the way to get a medium quality machine to cut aluminium in order to do hobby parts, because in the end i want it to this, hobby parts.
    How to start? Im open to any possibility and also i want to learn abou cnc and metal part doing
    Thanks agais for all your attention!


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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    If making parts in metal is your goal, I'd say look out for a used commercial CNC machine that is taking up space in someone's shop which they need for a new machine. Often machines like that go for a small fraction of what they cost originally, or even what they'll fetch as scrap iron. Often the main thing the owner wants is someone who will take it away. If you can fix a broken controller, or replace it with a new one, you can end up with a very capable mill for not much money at all, much better than the problematic hobby machines you're seeing advertised on Aliexpress. But if you can bring someone with you when you look at it who knows about machinery of this sort, they can help you avoid machines that are worn out in certain places, which happens if a mill has been dedicated to making a single part over and over again for years on end.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    Firstly, you must ask yourself, what kind of things or products you want your cnc machine to make? For myself, ten years ago, I planned to do plastic prototype first and, later on, I changed my mind to build some aluminum prototype injection molds instead. Luckily, the original bought European-made router machine still can do that aluminum machining. Now, I want to build a new one on my own that can machine aluminum as well as slight cutting of steel. So, it means that if you have not experience, you need to go step by step. Secondly, if you are a fresh guy of Cnc, metal machining, Cnc electronic or Cad/Cam. It is highly recommended that you buy a good ready-made one or CNC kit instead of building one on your own. None of experience will just waste a lot of your money. If you are eagerly to have a diy one and will have patient to do it in long term and long time. You need to have some friends to teach you by your side to tell you what you are right or wrong. Then, you can do that. Also, do more research on internet and youtube. There are numerous things you can learn and good machine design to follow to build.



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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    UNknown unknowns!



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    Default Re: 5 axis cnc design

    Do you know how to program 5 axis in mastercam ?



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    Default

    I would recommend a small benchtop mill, I started with welded steel 10 years ago and it gave me confidence.
    But after building it i never used it, it felt like an experiment rather a real machine.
    Costs add up quickly and thats money better spent on cast iron goodness.

    Wisdom results from foolishness!


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