Alternatives to KBLC-19m controller for Sieg X2 motor

[cncuser1]

My sieg X2 has a DC brushed motor, 110VDC. I need to replace the controller.

Conventional wisdom here is that there are a number of KB controllers that would do. ( KBLC-19M, KBMM, KBWS etc). The used ones are at the edge of my budget.

I see that there are new ones on ebay that seem to have OK specs but I am not sure.

Is there an obvious difference between them and the KB controllers, such as quality of technology used or quality of output signal?

This one can accept 110VAC in, 0-10v DC in for speed control, 2000W capacity
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/311675662809...m=311675662809

This one can accept 110VAC in, 0-10v DC in for speed control, 3000W capacity
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/HX-PWM-AC90V...r/121480450839

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[joeavaerage]

Hi,
KB controllers are phase controlled bridges. The active parts are two diodes and two SCRs. They are old school and quite rugged
and KB have been making them a long time and have all the wrinkles sorted out.

The last one you linked to (the first link didn't work for me) is a buck regulator. So there is a bridge rectifier of four diodes followed by a buck regulator
of a MOSFET/IGBT and highspeed freewheel diode. This is a more modern design and can be both rugged, versatile and responsive but at a cost.
Lower priced units such as you are looking at are probably less reliable than the KB types.

In terms of advantages regarding the technology there is little in it, at least for a spindle. The later type PWM regulator would come out on top if you
were modifying it to drive an axis motor but not otherwise.

Craig

[cncuser1]

Here is another link to the first controller:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/AC-20-110V-I...-/311675662809

Can you advise on the basic compatability of both units with a DC brushed 110V motor? I am weak in this area.

You mentioned a cost to the more modern design, is it the reduced reliability due to low quality build or other reason?

In the Benchtop forum here other commenters said PWM was easier on the brushes and ran quiter than the SCR drives, is there a wrinkle in that position?

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
either type will work fine,

Top quality costs money, that's why KB cost more.

As far as electrical noise then yes there may be substance to the argument that PWM is better, quite frankly there is so little
in it that it makes no difference.

If you want me to say that a Chinese made PWM unit is better than the KB unit, well its not going to happen.

Craig

[Al_The_Man]

Hi,
KB controllers are phase controlled bridges. The active parts are two diodes and two SCRs. They are old school and quite rugged
and KB have been making them a long time and have all the wrinkles sorted out.

Craig

They also make PWM controllers which are a little more higher end hence the extra cost.
The SCR bridge type are similar to the MC-60 T.M. controllers, with the MC-2100 being PWM.
The PWM do not require a series choke as is only beneficial when using SCR bridge. And are also smoother/quieter electrically.
Al.

[cncuser1]

Joe I didn't want you to say anything. I am pretty confident that the Chinese stuff is lower quality. I just wanted to be clear on your reasons for saying there was a cost. The way you phrased it I have to assume what the cost is..............so I assume you meant the cost of the newer PWM design is lower reliability of the Chinese source?

Thanks, now I know either of the Chinese one are OK.

So now I know that I have a choice between used, more expensive KB controllers that are proven and new Chinese controllers that are cheaper but less reliable.

Thanks Joe

[Al_The_Man]

One thing overlooked is the ability to service it, should it fail, the components are readily available for both the KB and the T.M. controllers from Digikey etc, The Chinese are an unknown
Some of them have a SMPS (power supply) which are generally very difficult to fix.
Al.

[cncuser1]

Thanks Al, good tip.
But I wouldn't be able to fix it myself and to be honest If I paid up to $100ish for any one of the controllers repair wouldn't be a serous consideration.

[cncuser1]

Joe and/or Al,
Can you take a look at the controller below? Can you glean from the description if the output is PWM? It says alternative to SCR but I don't know if there is anything else to pin down the method of...driving the motor.:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/HX-P...65962e0eNK8xFg

I think I can use it for my 110Vdc brushed motor. One of the first controllers I linked to stated specifically that input 120 VAC is not OK, only input 110VAC or below. It is a pretty strict spec!

[Al_The_Man]

It is a PWM controller, When used on 120v the DC is generally higher as noted in the AD, higher voltage, per-se is not really a problem just watch the maximum resulting RPM does not exceed the rating of the motor to any great extent.
The general guide is that a motor controller supply should be at least 10% above the motor rating.
Al.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
that will work fine.

As Al says it could in fact produce more voltage than you expect. If you have 110 VAC as input when it is rectified and smoothed
it would be 110 x 1.4= 154 VDC. This is called the DC Link voltage and in theory the unit could supply that maximum output voltage,
rather more than you want. The PWM reduces the DC Link voltage to what you want,

This unit is a fraction, quality wise, of the KB unit.

[Al_The_Man]

Apparently the motor rated voltage is settable by parameter:

Quote:
Seventh, Parameters Setting,
1, the motor rated voltage setting; long press SW1 three seconds to hear a release, the digital display U-110.0, through the SW2 SW3 button to add and subtract (long press will accelerate the addition and subtraction), 48V-250V adjustment .
Al.

[cncuser1]

Thanks Joe, a used KB that uses SCR is twice the price (landed) if this unit. A used KB unit that uses PWM is three times the price.

My entire project is low budget, at this point in time I'm learning and evaluating options as I go along.

What I don't like about this unit is all the parameters I have to learn about and set(and get right), It seems that the KB units are simpler to configure( a couple pots and a resistor).

[cncuser1]

Thanks AL, I skimmed through that section because I am not there yet. I was curious if it, ballpark, fit my needs.

I have to go back and decide if I want to learn and risk making a mistake on all the nitty gritty electronic details of this unit, or spring for a KB unit which although better and more expensive, seems simpler to implement.

[Al_The_Man]

Have you ever looked out for scrap Treadmill ? They use 2hp-2.5hp motor and controllers, both SCR (older) and PWM style drives.
Al.

[cncuser1]

I haven't looked for scrap treadmill. I know it is common here.

I figured since my motor is serviceable and powerful enough for my needs , the only added benefit come from the controller, And to be honest I am leary of tackling the integration of a sparsely supported controller to my Gecko G540 for RPM control. I made the assumption ( possibly wrong) that it is too much project of enough plug-n-play.

[Al_The_Man]

In the case of T.M.'s the controllers themselves are worth it from SCR to PWM types.
The MC-60 controller is almost identical to a KB style.
Al.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
I work for a company who sell and service welding equipment. I'm in the service side, mainly electronics.

The majority of our customers are industrial users but none the less we still have to sell cheap Chinese inverter welders to meet the market.
I don't describe them as rubbish....but then they aren't very good either. They're like a time bomb.....you can hear it ticking and you know its going to go bang
but you don't know when. In truth most last several years and by the time they crap out the guys will come back and buy another one. So they are good enough
to get a repeat sale.

We sell US and European made welders as well.

Cheap Chinese inverter manual arc welder is about $400NZD
European quality manual arc welder is about $2000NZD.

Is the quality European one worth five times the cheap Chinese....probably not. If you want your welder to last.....that's the cost of a reliable solution.

You are faced with the same choice. A cheap Chinese DC controller that may last several years, or may not depending on your luck or a US made controller
that you will highly likely be still using in 15 years from now. You can 'um and ah' as much as you like the decision doesn't change.

Craig