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Thread: HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...

  1. #21
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    Default Take a peek...

    Look at my first couple posts, the drawing I posted is the "schematic" provided by the vendor, I noticed where the change has been made, look at my first photos, the two black wires coming off the DPDT switch are on the same side of the switch, not like in your diagram, that is how it was stock, Also I did not remove any leads from the original modular connector, I am going to rebuild the switch wiring and modular plug to duplicate the original and try to go from there... John, please also read the "chinglish" translation of the note regarding the reverse switch and capacitor... Tell me what you make of that...

    Thanks so much for hanging with me on this problem, I am learning a lot about A/C motors in the process between your tips, diagrams and explanations and the research I am doing behind the scenes...

    I think this is one of those oddball motors as described earlier... The capacitor is switched also, I am going to rework the switch to match the original... If you look at this attached diagram(vendor schematic) and kindly mark up the DPDT switch with "dots" at the actual contact points on that drawing for me and I may be able to sort it out, the wire gauge appears to be identical, I will check the resistance values now and see if there is a difference, I think I remember how to use my fluke77... Uh oh...

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...-at125_wiring_diagram-jpg  


  2. #22
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Did you pull the armature out to see if there is a centrifugal switch?
    Most that are capacitor run, the windings may be the same.
    That original schematic shows the original typical set up for these lathes.
    On the start relay, the retaining contact is physically made by the start button pushing the relay armature over by the button, a cheap way of doing it.
    The reversing switch was a rotary drum style switch.
    You will notice that the start winding is connected permanently to the Hot conductors from the start/stop sw. and only the run windings switched/reversed. for FWD/REV.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    Did you pull the armature out to see if there is a centrifugal switch?
    Most that are capacitor run, the windings may be the same.
    That original schematic shows the original typical set up for these lathes.
    On the start relay, the retaining contact is physically made by the start button pushing the relay armature over by the button, a cheap way of doing it.
    The reversing switch was a rotary drum style switch.
    You will notice that the start winding is connected permanently to the Hot conductors from the start/stop sw. and only the run windings switched/reversed. for FWD/REV.
    Al.
    I did pull the armature out, I see no apparatus that could be a switch, this is the simplest motor design I have ever seen, no brushes, no cent. switch, no cap bulge on the side, instead there's a large cap secured under the lathe bed...

    I am no motor expert, but I have seen the guts of several industrial motors, there is no switch.

    This machine came stock with the DPDT reversing switch, it's actually a nice setup with the magnetic switch, also it it recessed and angled such that it's nearly impossible to trip the reverse switch on accident...

    I've made a change to the wiring based on the diagram posted by the other user, in doing so the DPDT switch wiring has changed, I need to get back to stock, the four motor wires and two cap wires side of the 6 position plug I can replicate to the original...

    The DPDT switch will also be rewired to what it was...

    The only questions remaining is the connection of the hot and neutral into the DPDT switch and the 4 motor wires on the switch side of the 6 position receptacle... If I can accurately get those connections sorted out I can get back to stock...

    My confusion comes from the vendor provided "scematic" I cannot determine where a lead is crossing another or connecting to it, it's the worst wiring diagram I have ever seen provided by a company in the USA...

    Help! I'll be re-wiring the switch and repositioning the leads in the modular connector to the ones I can positively ID... Take it from there is the best I can do... Thanks so much for bleeding with me on this...

    I've put a lot of time into this machine in 14 years to get it to where it is(it's a sweet machine now, cuts aluminum like butter) I've replaced all the bearings with quality bearings, fitted parts, grinding of the castings and refinishing them... Grinding of the table surface, the compound slide had to be completely reworked and fitted... In that 14 years I have hunted down the very best in MT1 tooling and micro lathe tooling that I can find and now have an awesome miniature quick change toolpost complete with dremel toolpost grinder attachment... This machine is actually not just a lathe, it's a "micro smithy clone" MT1 tapers all the way around...

    If anyone can be of further assistance please stick around, this is my hobby along with R/C flight and computer programming, I am a disabled individual...

    Thanks for helping, time to get the soldering iron hot again... Ken



  4. #24
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=blkbagger;1005265]
    My confusion comes from the vendor provided "scematic" I cannot determine where a lead is crossing another or connecting to it, it's the worst wiring diagram I have ever seen provided by a company in the USA...

    /QUOTE]

    I am positive the schematic was provided by the original Chinese Manuf.
    It uses an old method that has not been in use for many years, if a conductor makes a 'T' junction with another conductor it is a connection, as opposed to if it crosses another conductor, there is no connection.
    Just put a Black dot on all the T connection on the dwg.!
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Member john-100's Avatar
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    Hi

    the best I can make out so far is this diagram

    but I don't see how it will function any better

    John

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...-at125_wiring_diagram-2b-jpg  


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    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blkbagger View Post
    please also read the "chinglish" translation of the note regarding the reverse switch and capacitor... Tell me what you make of that...
    I take it all they are saying is that the black wire coming from the direction change switch is connected to the cap, and then from cap to motor.
    And all the other conductor colours correspond to the motor conductor colours?
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default not better, trying for the same ol stock setup...

    a couple wires needed replaced, a switch replaced, I blew it and did not take photos like I usually do before a disassembly... I'm not trying to reinvent or redesign the setup, just trying to get it back to stock, pardon my igorance of A/C motors and schematics, the "dots" on the switch is where I am stuck...

    See this photo, if you can mark the "missing dots" for me I can sort it out...

    And yes to the last poster, that is what was happening, I just need to replicate it, not improve it, I will rewire the switch, take a look at your drawing and give it another go today...

    My back is killing me today, but I must get this done, I want to move on to and finish my CNC mill, then start the CNC rotary table...

    Guys, thanks for all your time and assistance, I am truly thankful there are still helpful people online...

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...-help_dots-jpg  


  8. #28
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Here is a 'dotted' version
    Al.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...-capmotor-pdf  
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


  9. #29
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    Hi

    more like this ?

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...-at125_wiring_-diagram-2c-jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by john_100 View Post
    Hi

    the best I can make out so far is this diagram

    but I don't see how it will function any better

    John
    So my earlier statement regarding the hot and neutral being on the COM contacts on the DPDT switch is correct???

    One on the 'A' side the other on the 'B' side??? That makes sense to me as how a DPDT switch works, that'll teach me to take photos everytime...

    Thanks again, I am back to the soldering iron... I will report back later after the do-over...

    Ken



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    Hi Ken

    on the dotted version I changed the lables on the windings
    so the Green and yellow /green wires are switched
    as on the original diagram

    on the last two versions the white wire has been moved to
    line up with terminal 1 so they run in sequence


    John



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    Hi Ken

    you can connect the live/hot and neutral to either the common terminals
    or the cross linked corner terminals

    the diagram shows both versions and they will work the same

    John

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...-forward-reverse-switch-take-x-jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by john_100 View Post
    Hi Ken

    on the dotted version I changed the lables on the windings
    so the Green and yellow /green wires are switched
    as on the original diagram

    on the last two versions the white wire has been moved to
    line up with terminal 1 so they run in sequence


    John
    I'm looking at your diagram now, desoldered and cleaned the terminals on the switch, got out the box of wire terminals and melt liner heat shrink, going to attack it once more, this time using new wire etc... One step at a time...



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    Default New switch...

    Here's the new switch wired up and ready for install... I am going to follow the revised diagram and see what happens...

    As you can see I have excellent soldering and wiring skills, I just need a good, proper schematic to follow, having correctly color coded wiring to match the schematics is helpful also...

    The measured resistance on the two pairs from the motor is as follows, the red & blue pair 4.1 ohms, the green & green/yellow pair 5.6 ohms...

    If anyone can see anything incorrect please speak up, that's why I had to ask for help...

    Ken

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...-new_switch-jpg  
    Last edited by blkbagger; 10-10-2011 at 05:45 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    Did you pull the armature out to see if there is a centrifugal switch?
    Most that are capacitor run, the windings may be the same.
    That original schematic shows the original typical set up for these lathes.
    On the start relay, the retaining contact is physically made by the start button pushing the relay armature over by the button, a cheap way of doing it.
    The reversing switch was a rotary drum style switch.
    You will notice that the start winding is connected permanently to the Hot conductors from the start/stop sw. and only the run windings switched/reversed. for FWD/REV.
    Al.
    There is no centrifugal switch.
    The resistance is as follows red & blue pair 4.1 ohms, green/green-yellow pair 5.6 ohms.
    There has never been a rotary switch on this machine, I want it stock to use the existing switch housing etc...
    I need your hand drawn "wiring for dummies" schematic to duplicate the original... (one note, now my switch wiring has changed to match your drawing)

    This has gotten very confusing now indeed, I will have to wire another switch like the original and sort it out... The rewire of the DPDT switch is what has me confused now... I never wanted to change anything, just duplicate what was there originally, it worked... I just cannot read the vendor provided schematic and translate it into wiring in my hands... Thanks for all the help, I hope I did not waste anyones time...



  16. #36
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    I think John has done quite a few sketches of hook ups?
    The fact it appears to be a capacitor run motor MAY account for the apparent start winding being higher res but I would have expected different, nonetheless.
    If you wire up assuming this, you could monitor the no-load running current and compare it to the plate current, if it varies significantly then swap the two windings, you should not damage anything for a short run test.
    If you are not confident that you have wired the switch up correctly, use a simple DC power supply test.
    Replace the AC in with a low voltage fused DC source, substitute the two motor windings with 2 appropriate voltage lamps, power up and check the voltage at each lamp, one for continuous polarity and the other for reversal.
    Crude but simple for the non-confident.
    Shorts will be self evident!!
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Hi Ken


    if the connectors only fit one way round

    this should be what you need

    John

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...-motor-switch-connector-jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by john_100 View Post
    Hi Ken


    if the connectors only fit one way round

    this should be what you need

    John
    John, thank you... Your diagram appears to match the old modular connector exactly... Those are the two pieces I have still intact, I will wire this up and give it a go... Thanks again for your time and assistance...

    Ken



  19. #39
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    According to post #20 there is a green type wire on each winding.
    The original proper drawing, in this case is crap (the colors are wrong)

    Assuming:

    coil 1 - green + blue

    coil 2 - yellow/green + red


    This will work.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...-wire-fixed-jpg  
    Super X3. 3600rpm. Sheridan 6"x24" Lathe + more. THREE ways to fix things: The RIGHT way, the OTHER way, and maybe YOUR way, which is possibly a FASTER WRONG WAY!


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    Default Success... In two directions...

    Quote Originally Posted by john_100 View Post
    Hi Ken


    if the connectors only fit one way round

    this should be what you need

    John
    John, thank you so much for your patience and understanding, the last drawing and your revised switch wiring work perfectly... Time to re-assemble my micro lathe and make some chips... The new wiring harness should last a lifetime...

    John, I do cut vinyl graphics and graphic design, if you'd like something cut for youself, such as truck lettering or something I would be happy to cut it for you... Provide it in PDF at real size up to 13.3 X 39.3, specify the color and it's yours... You've been instrumental in getting this sorted out, I owe you one for your time and efforts...

    Thank you all so much for your tips and suggestions, I have learned quite a bit about AC motors and reversing them in this ordeal... You all have been great... Now I can move on to getting my CNC mill finished, I needed my lathe up and running to make a couple small parts for it...

    Thanks so much to everyone here for your time and efforts, I sincerely appreciate it...

    Ken

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...-wired_up-jpg  


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