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  1. #81
    Member mactec54's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    From what I can see I have no choice but to use G43 in my code as no other way to get tool length compensation. I could have no G43 and do all the length compensation in cam but that would not be ideal as I would need to know exact lengths before post processing every time. If I didn't use G43 then everything would just work though as far as the XZ/YZ arcs! The fusion 360 Mazak post processor generates G43 for the first Z move after each tool change.
    Never go by what the postprocessor puts out that is only put together by a software person which in most cases does not even no one machine from another, most postprocessor's are generic which individual users like yourself adjust to suit there machine

    So it seems that your control is close to the Fanuc code format, so look at other postprocessors that they have in F360 and you may find one that is better suited to your machine it does not have to have the name Mazak to be able to work with your control

    Mactec54


  2. #82

    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Never go by what the postprocessor puts out that is only put together by a software person which in most cases does not even no one machine from another, most postprocessor's are generic which individual users like yourself adjust to suit there machine

    So it seems that your control is close to the Fanuc code format, so look at other postprocessors that they have in F360 and you may find one that is better suited to your machine it does not have to have the name Mazak to be able to work with your control
    Yeah, I know the post processor is not properly tested, especially Fusion 360 vs some dedicated CAM packages. I guess what I meant was that the post processor always generates these arcs in its normal movements. The code generated by the post processor also works fine on my CNC router and in every g code simulator I can find. I have already edited the post processor a bit to suit my machine and intend on making a few more changes.

    I have tried a Fanuc post processor that was recommended on another forum post for machines with limited memory. It generated the exact same code for the same operation pretty much. The same code that would cause the machine to lose its ship!

    I got my first reply back tonight from local Mazak support. They gave me some lines of code to add directly after the arc but it did not help. Hopefully that eliminates something and leads to a solution...



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    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Hi, giving my opinion as well.
    I haven't used much G18 or G19 in my over 20 years of programming. But this is how I would have programmed this:

    G90 G17 G49
    G53 Z0.
    G54
    G0 X20. Y0.
    G43 Z10. H1
    G1 Z0. F175
    G18
    G1 G41 D1 X0.
    G3 X50. Z-50. I0. K-50.
    G1 G40 X70.
    G0 Z50.
    M30

    I ran this on Vericut generic vertical mill and it looks as follows.



    Last edited by McMaster; 09-30-2020 at 07:19 AM.


  4. #84

    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by McMaster View Post
    Hi, giving my opinion as well.
    I haven't used much G18 or G19 in my over 20 years of programming. But this is how I would have programmed this:

    G90 G17 G49
    G53 Z0.
    G54
    G0 X20. Y0.
    G43 Z10. H1
    G1 Z0. F175
    G18
    G1 G41 D1 X0.
    G3 X50. Z-50. I0. K-50.
    G1 G40 X70.
    G0 Z50.
    M30

    I ran this on Vericut generic vertical mill and it looks as follows.
    Thanks for your example. To be honest, I haven't tried with diameter compensation turned on yet. A few people have mentioned it. I will give it a go tonight.

    In the original case where this issue came up, it was a facing operation. The tool was lowered in Z to about 1mm above the work, went through a small 0.5mm radius arc (XZ) to get down to Z0 and then traversed across X doing the facing operation. So no diameter compensation was needed. The machine would jerk at the arc. So, I simplified it down until I came up with an example arc that always caused the machine to play up. I know I could always just not use XZ arcs but I am worried that if one is ever generated by a post processor and I miss it, the machine will lose the plot and destroy something! It is also a pretty standard function.

    I also don't know what else may not be working correctly due to using tool length offset that I haven't discovered yet!



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    Member mactec54's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    Thanks for your example. To be honest, I haven't tried with diameter compensation turned on yet. A few people have mentioned it. I will give it a go tonight.

    In the original case where this issue came up, it was a facing operation. The tool was lowered in Z to about 1mm above the work, went through a small 0.5mm radius arc (XZ) to get down to Z0 and then traversed across X doing the facing operation. So no diameter compensation was needed. The machine would jerk at the arc. So, I simplified it down until I came up with an example arc that always caused the machine to play up. I know I could always just not use XZ arcs but I am worried that if one is ever generated by a post processor and I miss it, the machine will lose the plot and destroy something! It is also a pretty standard function.

    I also don't know what else may not be working correctly due to using tool length offset that I haven't discovered yet!
    And all this time we thought you where trying to use a G18 a G18 is never used or needed for regular 3 / 4 Axis milling

    You don't need to use a G18 for what you where trying to do no wonder the machine was confused

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    I know I could always just not use XZ arcs but I am worried that if one is ever generated by a post processor and I miss it, the machine will lose the plot and destroy something! It is also a pretty standard function.
    That behaviour can be shut-off in linking tab lead-in/lead-out some-thing-or-other per tool path operation. I don't have Fusion on this computer so that's as specific as it gets . There may be a way to shut off the swoopy lead-ins globally in Fusions settings. I've always accepted the G18s as they work fine with my control.
    For the time being you could search the gcode files for G18 with a text editor. That's kind of the lousy situation when the post-processor doesn't match the control. I've worked with old Mazaks (mostly using the conversational Mazatrol mode but not always) and can't recall coming across this problem. Hope you find a more satisfactory solution.

    Anyone who says "It only goes together one way" has no imagination.


  7. #87

    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclestart View Post
    That behaviour can be shut-off in linking tab lead-in/lead-out some-thing-or-other per tool path operation. I don't have Fusion on this computer so that's as specific as it gets . There may be a way to shut off the swoopy lead-ins globally in Fusions settings. I've always accepted the G18s as they work fine with my control.
    For the time being you could search the gcode files for G18 with a text editor. That's kind of the lousy situation when the post-processor doesn't match the control. I've worked with old Mazaks (mostly using the conversational Mazatrol mode but not always) and can't recall coming across this problem. Hope you find a more satisfactory solution.
    I already have implemented work arounds (find and replace G18/G19 with G1 so it just does an interpolate rather than arc). But I really want to understand what is causing this issue on the machine. To me the point of this thread is about trying to understand the root cause.



  8. #88

    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    And all this time we thought you where trying to use a G18 a G18 is never used or needed for regular 3 / 4 Axis milling

    You don't need to use a G18 for what you where trying to do no wonder the machine was confused
    It is used by Fusion 360 for lead in/out when milling. I also have a job where I would like to be able to use it for milling that involves a repeated macro to make a semi spherical pocket. My machine doesn't have enough memory to replace all curves with a series of straight lines.



  9. #89

    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    Thanks for your example. To be honest, I haven't tried with diameter compensation turned on yet. A few people have mentioned it. I will give it a go tonight.

    In the original case where this issue came up, it was a facing operation. The tool was lowered in Z to about 1mm above the work, went through a small 0.5mm radius arc (XZ) to get down to Z0 and then traversed across X doing the facing operation. So no diameter compensation was needed. The machine would jerk at the arc. So, I simplified it down until I came up with an example arc that always caused the machine to play up. I know I could always just not use XZ arcs but I am worried that if one is ever generated by a post processor and I miss it, the machine will lose the plot and destroy something! It is also a pretty standard function.

    I also don't know what else may not be working correctly due to using tool length offset that I haven't discovered yet!
    So, I ran this code and did some experimenting with tool diameter compensation tonight. It didn't change my XZ arc not working issue, but it did do something I didn't expect that is probably related. When 10mm diameter cutter compensation was applied, the tool moved down in the Z axis by 10mm! I am pretty sure that is not meant to happen right? see attached pictures.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video-capture-jpg   Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video-20201001_204936-jpg  


  10. #90
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    I think I have uncovered the source of your crashong..
    The IJK is the relative distance from arc centre to the start point of the arc...

    Try proving off with D1=0 before applying any radius comp.
    G90 G17 G49
    G53 Z0.
    G54
    G0 X20. Y0.
    G43 Z10. H1
    G1 Z0. F175
    G1 G41 D1 X0.
    G18 G3 X50. Z-50. I-50. K0.
    G1 G40 X70.
    G0 Z50.
    M30



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    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    It is used by Fusion 360 for lead in/out when milling. I also have a job where I would like to be able to use it for milling that involves a repeated macro to make a semi spherical pocket. My machine doesn't have enough memory to replace all curves with a series of straight lines.
    No it should not be used like that for arc on arc off that's a F360 screw up

    Mactec54


  12. #92

    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    No it should not be used like that for arc on arc off that's a F360 screw up
    Can you elaborate on why an arc should not be used? It would work well if my machine wasn't being a dick about doing an arc!!!



  13. #93

    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by Superman View Post
    I think I have uncovered the source of your crashong..
    The IJK is the relative distance from arc centre to the start point of the arc...

    Try proving off with D1=0 before applying any radius comp.
    G90 G17 G49
    G53 Z0.
    G54
    G0 X20. Y0.
    G43 Z10. H1
    G1 Z0. F175
    G1 G41 D1 X0.
    G18 G3 X50. Z-50. I-50. K0.
    G1 G40 X70.
    G0 Z50.
    M30
    I haven't had a chance to run this code on the machine yet. I will hopefully get to it today. I did find in an old mitsubishi controler manual the following which explained why diameter compensation is applied on the Z axis. It seems G18 causes diameter compensation to be applied on the XZ plane.

    The plane to which the movement of the tool during the circle interpolation (including helical
    cutting) and tool radius compensation command belongs is selected.
    By registering the basic three axes and the corresponding parallel axis as parameters, a plane can
    be selected by two axes that are not the parallel axis. If the rotary axis is registered as a parallel
    axis, a plane that contains the rotary axis can be selected.
    The plane selection is as follows:
    • Plane that executes circular interpolation (including helical cutting)
    • Plane that executes tool radius compensation
    • Plane that executes fixed cycle positioning.



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    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    I haven't had a chance to run this code on the machine yet. I will hopefully get to it today. I did find in an old mitsubishi controler manual the following which explained why diameter compensation is applied on the Z axis. It seems G18 causes diameter compensation to be applied on the XZ plane.

    The plane to which the movement of the tool during the circle interpolation (including helical
    cutting) and tool radius compensation command belongs is selected.
    By registering the basic three axes and the corresponding parallel axis as parameters, a plane can
    be selected by two axes that are not the parallel axis. If the rotary axis is registered as a parallel
    axis, a plane that contains the rotary axis can be selected.
    The plane selection is as follows:
    • Plane that executes circular interpolation (including helical cutting)
    • Plane that executes tool radius compensation
    • Plane that executes fixed cycle positioning.
    Now that you mention it, I remember one time I used G18 to mill a profile with a ballnose cutter, and yes, when I applied G41 it used radius in Z direction. Didn't remember this as it was 20 years ago. I had to set tool length to center of the ball and not the tip of tool as I usually would have.

    I made this quickly on Edgecam and this is what I got posted with Fanuc i31M post. Z zero is at the center of the of the 50 radius other than that it's the same.

    G0 G43 H1 Z55.0
    Z53.0
    G1 Z50.0
    G18 G3 X50.0 Z0.0 R50.0
    G0 Z55.0
    G91 G30 X0 Y0 Z0

    And I think this is pretty much what you have already tried.

    I think solution could be that turn on radius compensation on before G18 as the Superman said.



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    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    [QUOTE=ashes-man;2405916]Can you elaborate on why an arc should not be used? /QUOTE]

    To arc on and off of a job it is done using a G17 a G18 is not used to do this

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    It would work well if my machine wasn't being a dick about doing an arc!!!
    You are trying to make it do something it can not do, only a G17 is used for an Arc On /Off of a part, a G18 can never work for doing this your machine is completely confused with what you are trying to make it do

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by McMaster View Post
    Now that you mention it, I remember one time I used G18 to mill a profile with a ballnose cutter, and yes, when I applied G41 it used radius in Z direction. Didn't remember this as it was 20 years ago. I had to set tool length to center of the ball and not the tip of tool as I usually would have.

    I made this quickly on Edgecam and this is what I got posted with Fanuc i31M post. Z zero is at the center of the of the 50 radius other than that it's the same.

    G0 G43 H1 Z55.0
    Z53.0
    G1 Z50.0
    G18 G3 X50.0 Z0.0 R50.0
    G0 Z55.0
    G91 G30 X0 Y0 Z0

    And I think this is pretty much what you have already tried.

    I think solution could be that turn on radius compensation on before G18 as the Superman said.
    You guys are not getting it he is only doing an Arc On / Off of the job you don't use a G18 to do this

    Mactec54


  17. #97

    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You guys are not getting it he is only doing an Arc On / Off of the job you don't use a G18 to do this
    It doesn't matter what I am using a G18 arc for, the point of this thread is that my machine cannot do a G18 arc at all when tool length compensation is used.

    I do have two uses for a G18 arc. One is for lead in as is generated by F360, but I can work around that by not allowing F360 to do it, the other is a job where I want to make pockets (kind of like half an egg cup where the egg goes). I have tried making too paths for this using lots of little lines and it uses all the machines memory. A series of G18 arcs would work perfectly in a few lines. I also wanted the machining marks that the G18 arc would leave for cosmetic reasons so don't want to do it horizontally.

    It still comes down to why cant my machine do an arc in the XZ plane when tool compensation is turned on, and why does it lose its marbles and do a big bang! Every other machine and simulator I have tried can do it.



  18. #98

    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by McMaster View Post
    Now that you mention it, I remember one time I used G18 to mill a profile with a ballnose cutter, and yes, when I applied G41 it used radius in Z direction. Didn't remember this as it was 20 years ago. I had to set tool length to center of the ball and not the tip of tool as I usually would have.

    I made this quickly on Edgecam and this is what I got posted with Fanuc i31M post. Z zero is at the center of the of the 50 radius other than that it's the same.

    G0 G43 H1 Z55.0
    Z53.0
    G1 Z50.0
    G18 G3 X50.0 Z0.0 R50.0
    G0 Z55.0
    G91 G30 X0 Y0 Z0

    And I think this is pretty much what you have already tried.

    I think solution could be that turn on radius compensation on before G18 as the Superman said.
    Thanks for taking the time to try that code. I will try it on the machine. I am willing to give anything a go now, especially if it points out something that may identify what is going on.

    I did try turning on radius compensation before and after G18. I tried all sorts of random combinations and nothing changes (in regards to the XZ arc).



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    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    It doesn't matter what I am using a G18 arc for, the point of this thread is that my machine cannot do a G18 arc at all when tool length compensation is used.

    I do have two uses for a G18 arc. One is for lead in as is generated by F360, but I can work around that by not allowing F360 to do it, the other is a job where I want to make pockets (kind of like half an egg cup where the egg goes). I have tried making too paths for this using lots of little lines and it uses all the machines memory. A series of G18 arcs would work perfectly in a few lines. I also wanted the machining marks that the G18 arc would leave for cosmetic reasons so don't want to do it horizontally.

    It still comes down to why cant my machine do an arc in the XZ plane when tool compensation is turned on, and why does it lose its marbles and do a big bang! Every other machine and simulator I have tried can do it.
    As I have been telling you that is total Bs what F360 is doing, no machine would allow a G18 to work like you are trying to use, this operation would normally use a spiral in if you wanted to go in from the top if you don't want any marks on the part you can Arc off at the end of the part

    It looses it marbles because it can not do an operation like this, there are many machines that could not do what you are trying to make it do, especially older machines like what you have

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    I did try turning on radius compensation before and after G18. I tried all sorts of random combinations and nothing changes (in regards to the XZ arc).
    ...mazak was very advance for the day back in the future (5axis tool comp) .... I think you should try using G41/G42 in G17 mode first to figure out your favor the program format needs to be.

    Program something with3 Bosses say 25mm dia...with a 12mm endmill at randum Points XY...with a rough and finish Tool 1 and tool 2....using diameter/radius comp...may help.



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Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video