FlashCut CNC questions.


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    Default FlashCut CNC questions.

    Hello everyone.

    Considering changing from Mach3 to Flashcut and just downloaded the demo to try.

    I have a Taig Mill and I set, under Basic Definition the Axis settings, of 19, 6 and 6 for x, y and z, whether its relevant to this topic I donno .

    I open a g-code file and immediately get a G-Code File Properties window popping up with warning that the tool path goes outside of the safe envelope as follows: and it gives me red messages like "Exceeds machine envelope in X-direction by 0.1535 in. Occurs on G-Code line 17"


    I assumed that I would just be able to load the g-code program. Then set the tool at 0,0 and 0 relative to the part being made and then start. How do I get rid of the machine envelope requirement? I don't have limit switches yet, I don't want to establish home yet, and why does Flashcut care about anything other than were x0, y0 and z0 relative to the part are?



    Also, a separate issue, does FlashCut allow two or 3 axis to be jogged at once. For example, keyboard jog the up and right arrow at the same time should cause the table to move at a 45° angle. Will it jog more axes at a time than just one? If not, this is certainly a deal breaker.

    Thanks,

    Pete

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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    Hey again,

    Think I solved the issue, by selecting clear in the machine DRO. G-code then works.

    Another question. Trying to figure out if it is possible to jog during feed hold. As if I wanted to stop and double check something and then resume. Maybe my tool broke or whatever. Is it possible to jog during feed hold?



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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    You don't want to use Flashcut. There isn't much of an active user base and support is nonexistent. I regretted it.



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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    you can jog during feedhold. but agree with dfurlano



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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    User base is quite large. It just works! Not really a lot to discuss. What do you want to do? If you want to experiment and get frustrated with something, get Mach 3/4. If all you want to do is use your machine with no issues, use Flashcut. Flashcut has never 'not' answered their phone when I called.



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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    if it just works, you aren't using all the features or found the bugs yet, or are using a subset.. part of the reason i bought it was because of the SDK that is offered, which has never appeared, so i feel that is a justified complaint, never gotten an answer from support email on it either.

    so great it works for you, in your situation but it doesn't work for everyone and there is a lot of room for improvement.

    its the old "works on my PC" line, shame we're not shipping your PC.

    cheers



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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    Can appreciate you may not be having issues but if you talk them again can you ask them to fix the a axis display? I have been asking since I bought the system several years ago.

    This is what it displays:

    FlashCut CNC questions.-capture-png

    And this is what it cuts:

    FlashCut CNC questions.-1151640061_cu6rp-o-6-jpg



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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    Don't get me wrong. Flashcut is not the end-all control. It is NOT a high dollar commercial control. It does have its limitations, and I work within those. It is missing some basics such as being able to use an MPG and rigid tap; but relative to anything else at it's price point, is a good deal (IMO). Everything is relative.
    I don't tinker/experiment with my machine. I simply want to use it for what I do, and have it work.
    Cheers!

    Charle,
    What is SDK?



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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    its not a cheap solution either, and its marketed as a pro setup for production use.

    the numpad pendant is what $500 for a third party $140 hid based numpad, which has no encoder, just buttons they could just let you use an actual numpad as laughable as that is.
    it can't control my VFD directly, it seems to need yet another board but i am not sure it can control modbus externally even then, it'd be via 10V line, which it doesn't have by default
    it doesn't interface directly with 24V systems,
    there is too much lag in the jog/feedback
    it crashes a lot, my reports folder has a lot of files in it
    when it crashes it doesn't recover state
    it reloads the GCODE every time you change a state, which on large GCODE files can take ages
    it is slow to load GCODE, see previous
    doesn't work well with network drives
    it is not a true standalone controller system as its indicated to be, it is reliant on the windows software for some of the things going on.
    parts of the control system have extra lag because they're being processed by the windows host, USB isn't always the best for realtime controls as it is, but the marketing for it suggests this isn't an issue that you don't have to worry about windows not being designed for realtime control.
    You can't say look at the toolpaths in the GUI (which is mostly incomprehensible anyway) when its running, because its 'concentrating' rather than being an independent controller, can't even switch the zoom level, so you have to stop it and change it. the auto zoom will take into account the final go home, so if your work piece is a ways away, then the zoomed area is still most of the table and you can't see much, if you use the tool size it ends up looking like a kids mspaint drawing
    the DRO's don't update during probe cycles etc.
    the most accurate running times calculator is baloney, mine regularly gets to 00:00 runtime left, then continues into the negative for another 10 minutes, its the old windows process bar joke, also how worrisome is out your time left indicator goes negative, a lot of people got free pacman/battlezone games in the video arcade because of stuff like that.
    the keyboard jog will sometimes not move, then suddenly do a few at once, causing it to jump, which is expected behaviour from a windows message que, its not designed for realtime controls there can be lag, and is
    custom cycles, how do we do that?
    some of the built in cycles just seem broken, i can't for the life of me make a face milling operation that the GCODE makes sense, it does one half, then moves down and does the the other half?
    the relative DRO has as far as i can tell, a cumulative math error where it'll add on .0001 each time you reset program coordinates.
    the MDI replaces the GCODE, that seems less useful to me, sometimes i just want to run a few lines of code and not lose where i am.
    history would be nice on the GCODE, a better jump to line for resumes, integrated with the XYZ views
    it doesn't do safe Z heights on moves, so it'll happily rip through your part. with a 3D move to get back to where it was, the last time support replied to me 10 months or so ago they said it'd be in the next version.
    the whole move/move/rapid/start from here isn't obvious, i ended up using move and start for ages.
    more resolution in the coordinates.

    The SDK (software development kit) allows us to bypass their GUI and implement features that either have a poor ROI for flashcut and wouldn't make sense for them, either too costly/difficult or just not enough customer base. we can make our own hardware/jog controllers, add in spindle monitoring that is not a COM port, different spindle controllers, in general just expand its usefulness.

    i'm using a dedicated gpu+intel i7 with an ssd drive to run my system btw.

    the applied motion STR8 stepper controllers and motors it uses are decent, never had an issue with them

    I've managed to get mine controlling my VFD via modbus (which i believe flashcut does do internally), i've gotten the remote DRO's so i can see a remote display, which turns out to be less useful since the DRO's don't update during certain operations, i'm seeing if i can bypass that though.



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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    Yikes! That is some list you have there !

    Thing is, I have been a FC user since late 1996. I'd have to say that I have put it on perhaps 20 different machines over the years and certainly do not have the volume of problems you seem to be having.

    Feeling as strong as I do about it's dependable nature, I feel compelled to comment on some of your issues just so people can hear another view. It's not a discussed much program, and frankly, as others have said, it does what most people want it to do without issue.


    >>> not a cheap solution either, and its marketed as a pro setup for production use.

    Well, what is "cheap" anyhow ? I'm seeing people take $150 controls and building rather insane, crazy expensive control panels for sometimes running something as little as a G0704. Because it has been stable for me and constantly reliable upgradeable control, I find it well worth the money.

    >>> the numpad pendant is what $500 for a third party $140 hid based numpad, which has no encoder, just buttons they could just let you use an actual numpad as laughable as that is.

    True, but you do not have to buy it, and at least it is not proprietary as you certainly can buy that exact device from the manufacturer and interface it yourself. Or, what I have done over the years when necessary, use any one of the many USB keyboard emulator circuits to create any unique/special interface you want.

    >>> it can't control my VFD directly, it seems to need yet another board but i am not sure it can control modbus externally even then, it'd be via 10V line, which it doesn't have by default

    True, there is a daughter board for VFD/10v analog... And it too does work excellent. I have one on my Novakon at work and one on a Denford Lathe at home. With the OP thinking about moving away from Mach, I'll just point out that the VFD control was one of many reasons I dumped Mach on the Novakon. That spindle was NEVER reliable with the signal out of Mach.

    >>> it doesn't interface directly with 24V systems,

    Like ?

    >>> there is too much lag in the jog/feedback

    If seen this to change from PC to PC, but just tightening up the communication settings has cleared it up for me. I really can not complain much about that on any of my machines.

    >>> it crashes a lot, my reports folder has a lot of files in it

    Are you sure you do not have other PC issues ? Crashing is not in any list I have of Flashcut "issues".....

    >>> when it crashes it doesn't recover state

    If it did, I'm not sure I would want to trust it ! I'd want to reset everything regardless.

    >>> it reloads the GCODE every time you change a state, which on large GCODE files can take ages

    ??? A great deal of the settings can be changed in the middle of a file without any reloading. What type of "state changes" do you do ? There is also a setting to not reload the code each time somewhere in there... I have not ever turned it to not reload files.

    >>> it is slow to load GCODE, see previous

    I have had version releases that loaded files slowly, usually ones that were on a remote disk in the network. The version of version 4 I am running now seems just fine. At least it does not load files and run them and then STALL on lines it does not like like my last LinuxCNC attempt... boy was that annoying !

    >> doesn't work well with network drives

    See above..... FC has traditionally always worked excellent in a network..... It was one of the reasons I started using it way back in '96. All those old DOS controls just sucked compared to Flashcut.


    >>> it is not a true standalone controller system as its indicated to be, it is reliant on the windows software for some of the things going on.
    parts of the control system have extra lag because they're being processed by the windows host, USB isn't always the best for realtime controls as it is, but the marketing for it suggests this isn't an issue that you don't have to worry about windows not being designed for realtime control.

    Here we go.... "real time", "windows", "standalone"..... Like those arguments will go away any time soon.... I dont think anyone successfully using FC really cares ! Yes, you need a Windows PC, which I agree sucks as windows continues to go down in flames, but dang it, it is super reliable on a WIn7 or Xp Box. I start a job and it cuts the dang job... there is NO "real time" BS or "lag" when it is cutting a job. The whole topic is MOOT !

    >>> You can't say look at the toolpaths in the GUI (which is mostly incomprehensible anyway) when its running, because its 'concentrating' rather than being an independent controller, can't even switch the zoom level, so you have to stop it and change it. the auto zoom will take into account the final go home, so if your work piece is a ways away, then the zoomed area is still most of the table and you can't see much, if you use the tool size it ends up looking like a kids mspaint drawing

    True as well... but really ? Why would I need to do that ? I generally prove out my toolpaths long before they get on the control.... Zooming in to look at a path while it is running might be a "feature", but heck, While cutting is not the time for me to get concerned. And yes, the VIEW as mentioned for "rotary work is not a 3 dimensional mock up of what your cutting. I think some of the reasons for this is frankly just how old FC really is, and why they had decided to create a ground up from scratch program in that of a version 5. Now, I have seen it running at show, and it seems like they took the path of making it an excellent control starting with plasma which was a large portion of their business. I am under the belief that it will progress into a 5 or more axis control for other applications at some point.

    >>> the DRO's don't update during probe cycles etc.

    Could be the case... I have not really noticed. I would have to think you are incorrect on that, but I would have to look. My usual probe routines are such that I am never looking at DRO's.... I just have the system save tripped switch locations to text file so I can utilize it for point cloud work.

    >>> the most accurate running times calculator is baloney, mine regularly gets to 00:00 runtime left, then continues into the negative for another 10 minutes, its the old windows process bar joke, also how worrisome is out your time left indicator goes negative, a lot of people got free pacman/battlezone games in the video arcade because of stuff like that.

    That has been an issue for larger files. It's not bad on smaller jobs.... I've routinely run jobs that take an hour or so to run and never saw it run backwards. But they knew that was not accurate and were going to fix it somewhere along the way. It's another thing that just never really interfered with anything I was doing, and frankly, again, My toolpath plotting prior to taking the job to the control is the only place I've ever bothered looking at the run time calculation.


    >>> the keyboard jog will sometimes not move, then suddenly do a few at once, causing it to jump, which is expected behaviour from a windows message que, its not designed for realtime

    NOT an issue for me.... never has been. There has never been a time where I did not get what I expected for a move unless I didn't change something on my own accord properly. This tells me that you probably have a PC with funky USB capabilities. Your not running any USB hubs are you ?

    >>> custom cycles, how do we do that?

    Macro type stuff ? You can assign an unused code to do just about anything you would like... I've had help from them getting a start on what the code should look like for when I had to interface this Denford tool changer. Once I had an example, It was pretty easy to understand what type of code the program wanted to see. Combine those with variables, and you can get pretty crazy. I've used variables for one of my plasma machines so that various things about a job can be set on the screen at startup rather than in CAM. Handy for changes without running back to Cam.

    >>> some of the built in cycles just seem broken, i can't for the life of me make a face milling operation that the GCODE makes sense, it does one half, then moves down and does the the other half?

    Never used them. I got Cam.

    >>> the relative DRO has as far as i can tell, a cumulative math error where it'll add on .0001 each time you reset program coordinates.

    This is something I have not seen either. Though a "relative" DRO's accuracy requirement after resseting program coordinates ?... I'd have to think about when I would do that. I generally dont use the machine as a "manual machine" much... certainly never when I have to work with DRO's like you do with a manual machine.

    >>> the MDI replaces the GCODE, that seems less useful to me, sometimes i just want to run a few lines of code and not lose where i am.

    H'mmmm... another thing I never noticed, but then again, I do not recall ever really stopping to USE MDI in the middle of a running job.

    >>> history would be nice on the GCODE, a better jump to line for resumes, integrated with the XYZ views

    ???? History of code is right there on the front page... you can scroll back thru lines and choose one and the XYZ screen will show that location... Likewise, you can click on the screen and go to the line in that location. Zoom in if you have to. I never thought this was much of a problem. A broken tool in the middle of a job has always been super easy to get back to where ever you want to.


    >>> it doesn't do safe Z heights on moves, so it'll happily rip through your part. with a 3D move to get back to where it was, the whole move/move/rapid/start from here isn't obvious

    On restart after jogging like in a broken tool situation ? Never had a problem. You do need to read the details in the manual as to what the various options for restart are. It's actually pretty clear.

    >>>more resolution in the coordinates.

    I thought this was an adjustment too, but can not look right now as I am typing on a Linux Mint Laptop..... Mechanical resolution though will play a role here too as Im sure you realize. You can not get 6 decimal places out of a machine that mechanically can not settle in on 6.

    >>> The SDK (software development kit) allows us to bypass their GUI and implement features that either have a poor ROI for flashcut and wouldn't make sense for them, either too costly/difficult or just not enough customer base. we can make our own hardware/jog controllers, add in spindle monitoring that is not a COM port, different spindle controllers, in general just expand its usefulness.

    I think it was customer base..... I've never seen anyone use it, and frankly, over the years, I have found that less is more. As I mentioned at the top, I see guys making these insane control panels I guess, just because they see Haas and the like have big control panels. If one just uses the FC interface with a touch screen, and add just the few mechanical controls one needs when they really need them, I have no clue what more a guy needs. I am sure its more of a WANT issue....


    >>> I've managed to get mine controlling my VFD via modbus (which i believe flashcut does do internally), i've gotten the remote DRO's so i can see a remote display, which turns out to be less useful since the DRO's don't update during certain operations, i'm seeing if i can bypass that though

    You are the only person I have ever seen attempt anything with the SDK. I find it interesting that you have accomplished what you have. I once needed the ability to SEE the control of a running machine from a remote location and just used TightVNC. It worked out well enough for the user that while monitoring the machine via video camera, they could put the machine in Feedhold if necessary remotely. Beyond that, running FC from my Android phone or tablet has never really been very high on my list !

    If you bail on FC, be sure to put your control up for sale on the forum so others can have a chance to use something that works quite well for most users.

    Chris L


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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by datac View Post
    Yikes! That is some list you have there !

    Thing is, I have been a FC user since late 1996. I'd have to say that I have put it on perhaps 20 different machines over the years and certainly do not have the volume of problems you seem to be having.

    Feeling as strong as I do about it's dependable nature, I feel compelled to comment on some of your issues just so people can hear another view. It's not a discussed much program, and frankly, as others have said, it does what most people want it to do without issue.

    >>> not a cheap solution either, and its marketed as a pro setup for production use.

    Well, what is "cheap" anyhow ? I'm seeing people take $150 controls and building rather insane, crazy expensive control panels for sometimes running something as little as a G0704. Because it has been stable for me and constantly reliable upgradeable control, I find it well worth the money.
    well you brought up the cost, i don't think its worth the money, so we can agree to disagree there.

    >>> the numpad pendant is what $500 for a third party $140 hid based numpad, which has no encoder, just buttons they could just let you use an actual numpad as laughable as that is.

    True, but you do not have to buy it, and at least it is not proprietary as you certainly can buy that exact device from the manufacturer and interface it yourself. Or, what I have done over the years when necessary, use any one of the many USB keyboard emulator circuits to create any unique/special interface you want.
    Not that i know of, but i'd love to know how to interface an encoder wheel to it then, so please do tell. there aren't enough of the keyboard commands (which isn't the right way to do a jog box, but it'll do) to get the controls like say a $150 pendant for the mach3.

    so to the information i have so far, i don't have a reliable way of having a jog controller than can do xyza + continous/step fast/slow/med with feedback on the jog, i have not found any documentation on that, if it exists i'd love to hear it, otherwise that is the only solution.


    >>> it can't control my VFD directly, it seems to need yet another board but i am not sure it can control modbus externally even then, it'd be via 10V line, which it doesn't have by default

    True, there is a daughter board for VFD/10v analog... And it too does work excellent. I have one on my Novakon at work and one on a Denford Lathe at home. With the OP thinking about moving away from Mach, I'll just point out that the VFD control was one of many reasons I dumped Mach on the Novakon. That spindle was NEVER reliable with the signal out of Mach.
    yep a daughter board to do a basic feature thats available on most 100-150$ boards, how much is that daughter board btw?

    >>> it doesn't interface directly with 24V systems,

    Like ?
    VFD control feedback for one.


    >>> there is too much lag in the jog/feedback

    If seen this to change from PC to PC, but just tightening up the communication settings has cleared it up for me. I really can not complain much about that on any of my machines.
    unfortunately thats just the way usb+windows works they are not designed for RTOS, usb can do streaming but its used a packet based here, and it cannot guarantee arrival/send times, neither does the MFC windows message pump., its not designed to with that in mind, thats why there is a RTOS version of windows.

    >>> it crashes a lot, my reports folder has a lot of files in it

    Are you sure you do not have other PC issues ? Crashing is not in any list I have of Flashcut "issues".....
    yes quite sure, i've changed PC's three times, and i'm using high quality gear, i've been a hardware/software developer for over 30 years, so i know my way around a PC. The crashes are reproducible.

    >>> when it crashes it doesn't recover state

    If it did, I'm not sure I would want to trust it ! I'd want to reset everything regardless.
    i'd like my machine settings, and there are mechanisms like checksums and so on to recover state, a cars ECU has to do it, as do other devices so its not too much to ask.

    >>> it reloads the GCODE every time you change a state, which on large GCODE files can take ages

    ??? A great deal of the settings can be changed in the middle of a file without any reloading. What type of "state changes" do you do ? There is also a setting to not reload the code each time somewhere in there... I have not ever turned it to not reload files.
    machine settings, io lines, etc, rezeroing etc.

    >>> it is slow to load GCODE, see previous

    I have had version releases that loaded files slowly, usually ones that were on a remote disk in the network. The version of version 4 I am running now seems just fine. At least it does not load files and run them and then STALL on lines it does not like like my last LinuxCNC attempt... boy was that annoying !
    i'm loading off a ssd, and its slow, its not even loading that much..

    >> doesn't work well with network drives

    See above..... FC has traditionally always worked excellent in a network..... It was one of the reasons I started using it way back in '96. All those old DOS controls just sucked compared to Flashcut.
    i have issues with it not seeing new files on NFS, as well as the favouites folder keeps resettting because it doesn't see the drive on the initial load, even though its there.


    >>> it is not a true standalone controller system as its indicated to be, it is reliant on the windows software for some of the things going on.
    parts of the control system have extra lag because they're being processed by the windows host, USB isn't always the best for realtime controls as it is, but the marketing for it suggests this isn't an issue that you don't have to worry about windows not being designed for realtime control.

    Here we go.... "real time", "windows", "standalone"..... Like those arguments will go away any time soon.... I dont think anyone successfully using FC really cares ! Yes, you need a Windows PC, which I agree sucks as windows continues to go down in flames, but dang it, it is super reliable on a WIn7 or Xp Box. I start a job and it cuts the dang job... there is NO "real time" BS or "lag" when it is cutting a job. The whole topic is MOOT !
    realtime is important, its an external box with a controller it should be able to do other things like update the DRO's during a probe operation, you might be ok with that, and perhaps thats why you're so happy with it, maybe you're just not driving it hard enough, this is just a mode of operation.

    you might want the current operation to be dependent on the software running on a remote box, i want it to be able to continue or recover i don't loose a part.

    >>> You can't say look at the toolpaths in the GUI (which is mostly incomprehensible anyway) when its running, because its 'concentrating' rather than being an independent controller, can't even switch the zoom level, so you have to stop it and change it. the auto zoom will take into account the final go home, so if your work piece is a ways away, then the zoomed area is still most of the table and you can't see much, if you use the tool size it ends up looking like a kids mspaint drawing

    True as well... but really ? Why would I need to do that ? I generally prove out my toolpaths long before they get on the control.... Zooming in to look at a path while it is running might be a "feature", but heck, While cutting is not the time for me to get concerned. And yes, the VIEW as mentioned for "rotary work is not a 3 dimensional mock up of what your cutting. I think some of the reasons for this is frankly just how old FC really is, and why they had decided to create a ground up from scratch program in that of a version 5. Now, I have seen it running at show, and it seems like they took the path of making it an excellent control starting with plasma which was a large portion of their business. I am under the belief that it will progress into a 5 or more axis control for other applications at some point.
    ok so we agree, its bad, when was the last update? i also agree its old, the GUI is horribly outdated and uses a very old graphics method. however thats not how its marketed.


    >>> the DRO's don't update during probe cycles etc.

    Could be the case... I have not really noticed. I would have to think you are incorrect on that, but I would have to look. My usual probe routines are such that I am never looking at DRO's.... I just have the system save tripped switch locations to text file so I can utilize it for point cloud work.
    ok sure, but if you look on the flashcut forum you'll see i'm writing various gcode routines to do probing for finding program zero, and finding the center of circles, my version does not update the DRO, this goes back to it being realtime and independent control that method that you don't think is important, i do. you like what you like, i like what i like, but at the end of the day the software doesn't do it, i've checked. i'd love to be wrong

    >>> the most accurate running times calculator is baloney, mine regularly gets to 00:00 runtime left, then continues into the negative for another 10 minutes, its the old windows process bar joke, also how worrisome is out your time left indicator goes negative, a lot of people got free pacman/battlezone games in the video arcade because of stuff like that.

    That has been an issue for larger files. It's not bad on smaller jobs.... I've routinely run jobs that take an hour or so to run and never saw it run backwards. But they knew that was not accurate and were going to fix it somewhere along the way. It's another thing that just never really interfered with anything I was doing, and frankly, again, My toolpath plotting prior to taking the job to the control is the only place I've ever bothered looking at the run time calculation.
    ok so again we agree, its broken, they've said they''ll fix it, it happens on 10 minute runs for me. this is becoming a trend.

    >>> the keyboard jog will sometimes not move, then suddenly do a few at once, causing it to jump, which is expected behaviour from a windows message que, its not designed for realtime

    NOT an issue for me.... never has been. There has never been a time where I did not get what I expected for a move unless I didn't change something on my own accord properly. This tells me that you probably have a PC with funky USB capabilities. Your not running any USB hubs are you ?
    nope modern day PC, i can repeat it on multiple PC's at will. i don't have USB issues, today i just swapped out a brand new PC for it, because my other ones cpu fan died. fresh install, fresh hardware, same thing.


    >>> custom cycles, how do we do that?

    Macro type stuff ? You can assign an unused code to do just about anything you would like... I've had help from them getting a start on what the code should look like for when I had to interface this Denford tool changer. Once I had an example, It was pretty easy to understand what type of code the program wanted to see. Combine those with variables, and you can get pretty crazy. I've used variables for one of my plasma machines so that various things about a job can be set on the screen at startup rather than in CAM. Handy for changes without running back to Cam.
    macros aren't the same thing, custom cycles. its in the Cycles tab, under custom.


    >>> some of the built in cycles just seem broken, i can't for the life of me make a face milling operation that the GCODE makes sense, it does one half, then moves down and does the the other half?

    Never used them. I got Cam.

    me too, but i'm odd that i like to use the features of the software to do what its meant to do, not be broken and force me to go back to a cad/cam and setup a CAM operation to run a facing operation.


    >>> the relative DRO has as far as i can tell, a cumulative math error where it'll add on .0001 each time you reset program coordinates.

    This is something I have not seen either. Though a "relative" DRO's accuracy requirement after resseting program coordinates ?... I'd have to think about when I would do that. I generally dont use the machine as a "manual machine" much... certainly never when I have to work with DRO's like you do with a manual machine.
    have you tried it? its not for manual, i found it when i was writing my edge finder/program zero setting , fully automatic, i used the relative DRO to test repeat-ability of the operations, not much good when the DRO has a cumulative error, but again another flashcut error that apparently is ok, just overlook it, not worried at at all a CNC program thats designed to be entirely based on math is having math errors?


    >>> the MDI replaces the GCODE, that seems less useful to me, sometimes i just want to run a few lines of code and not lose where i am.

    H'mmmm... another thing I never noticed, but then again, I do not recall ever really stopping to USE MDI in the middle of a running job.
    so does seem like i said in an earlier post, you're just not using all the features, so you're happy with the subset. which is totally fine, but why defend it to others who're having issues for stuff you don't use?

    >>> history would be nice on the GCODE, a better jump to line for resumes, integrated with the XYZ views

    ???? History of code is right there on the front page... you can scroll back thru lines and choose one and the XYZ screen will show that location... Likewise, you can click on the screen and go to the line in that location. Zoom in if you have to. I never thought this was much of a problem. A broken tool in the middle of a job has always been super easy to get back to where ever you want to.
    i mean a history of the last GCODE operations, which isn't necessarily linear .for instance if the MDI did work as i'd like, id be able to inject commands.

    >>> it doesn't do safe Z heights on moves, so it'll happily rip through your part. with a 3D move to get back to where it was, the whole move/move/rapid/start from here isn't obvious

    On restart after jogging like in a broken tool situation ? Never had a problem. You do need to read the details in the manual as to what the various options for restart are. It's actually pretty clear.
    I did, and i talked to flashcut tech support 10+ months ago, as i said the said it'll be in the next version. it'll rapid write through a part if you jump around in GCODE, you can manually move around it so it won't do it, or you can have a safe Z height preset and the machine will do it for you.


    >>>more resolution in the coordinates.

    I thought this was an adjustment too, but can not look right now as I am typing on a Linux Mint Laptop..... Mechanical resolution though will play a role here too as Im sure you realize. You can not get 6 decimal places out of a machine that mechanically can not settle in on 6.

    [/quote]

    it isn't, it looks like there is, but its meant for something else.

    >>> The SDK (software development kit) allows us to bypass their GUI and implement features that either have a poor ROI for flashcut and wouldn't make sense for them, either too costly/difficult or just not enough customer base. we can make our own hardware/jog controllers, add in spindle monitoring that is not a COM port, different spindle controllers, in general just expand its usefulness.

    I think it was customer base..... I've never seen anyone use it, and frankly, over the years, I have found that less is more. As I mentioned at the top, I see guys making these insane control panels I guess, just because they see Haas and the like have big control panels. If one just uses the FC interface with a touch screen, and add just the few mechanical controls one needs when they really need them, I have no clue what more a guy needs. I am sure its more of a WANT issue....
    then they shouldn't be advertising it as such, and currently still are. My WANT is spindle control to my VFD via modbus with feedback, doesn't seem like a lot to ask ? I can understand a lack of a business model for it, but then don't say its available when it doesn't even exist, that is a lie.


    >>> I've managed to get mine controlling my VFD via modbus (which i believe flashcut does do internally), i've gotten the remote DRO's so i can see a remote display, which turns out to be less useful since the DRO's don't update during certain operations, i'm seeing if i can bypass that though

    You are the only person I have ever seen attempt anything with the SDK. I find it interesting that you have accomplished what you have. I once needed the ability to SEE the control of a running machine from a remote location and just used TightVNC. It worked out well enough for the user that while monitoring the machine via video camera, they could put the machine in Feedhold if necessary remotely. Beyond that, running FC from my Android phone or tablet has never really been very high on my list !
    no offence mate, but the amount of stuff in this post you made that you said you're not aware or don't use in flashcut of doesn't really shock me that you don't know about, there are a lot of people using the older version of flashcut with the SDK they managed to get with MATLAB, also in this very thread there is another chap asking for it, i've never done anything with the SDK because it doesn't exist. even though they say it does



    If you bail on FC, be sure to put your control up for sale on the forum so others can have a chance to use something that works quite well for most users.

    well first off, flashcut bailed on me, they don't reply to support emails, and they haven't supplied promised SDKs etc. also no updates including any of the promised fixes.


    cheers

    I'm probably going to gut it and rebuild it, the parts inside flashcut don't make are actually pretty nice. the WPI medical stuff is also nice.



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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    >>> i don't think its worth the money, so we can agree to disagree there.

    Well, then your options are the old standby at $150 and its shortcomings, or perhaps the two newer USB offerings for the $500 area. With that, your back into USB, but frankly, I do not believe USB is really a problem. In the case of FC, I understand that V4 essentially was a lot of code from very early days, and V5 was going to put a whole lot more operation on the black box rather than the PC. I looked at V5 once, but the two Plasma machines I have that use V4 run perfectly fine, so I don't really need any changes there.

    Perhaps you are a candidate for LinuxCNC ? I've been in and out a few times and always found something that I thought should have worked or worked better. (arc radius issues and debounce as I recall) I have not looked since PathPilot has been the rage.

    >>> Ii'd love to know how to interface an encoder wheel to it then, so please do tell.

    I forgot to mention MPG before, yes, you are right.... No MPG possibilities. Not on V4. Could be I am the odd man out as I always felt they are way over rated. In fact, I have often joked about people who have always bragged about how "cheap" this certain control was, because I guess, they have no money really to spend..... but make any old dangly thing that will plug into Mach, and they will throw all kinds of money at it, even if it does not work ! (Plenty of Mach add-ons never really worked... but hey, it was cheap, right ?)

    I've got machines with MPG's and without. I've got some that are more local that you just push buttons on a fixed box. In the end, it's just a box you grab to jog the machine. I guess I more or less fell in love just using a wireless game controller for all the flatbed style machines, and for me, it has worked perfectly. More perfectly that any MPG. I can jog, change speeds, set zero, start and feedhold just fine. And for less $$ than what guys have been charging for their WIRED mpg's. "Professional looking" ? No. But who cares. It is my favorite jog box. Wireless is the only way especially on the longer machines. So, while I dont have one of those things that make my machine look "pro" hanging there, I still get it done.

    >>> there aren't enough of the keyboard commands (which isn't the right way to do a jog box, but it'll do)

    What commands are you missing ? The only ones I recall not being able to control are the Axis jog WHILE running a G-code (awesome feature for some machines)

    >>> i don't have a reliable way of having a jog controller than can do xyza + continous/step fast/slow/med with feedback on the jog, i have not found any documentation on that

    You want all that for $1000 ? :-) I'm sure some people need it.. I am just kidding with ya. I never needed anything like that... I jog, set the program zeros and hit the button to run. Then I walk away and wait for an alarm to tell me the machine is waiting for new parts. For many parts, I don't need the jog anytime after it was set up for the first one. Perhaps it's because I always jig my work and have known X-Y fence and or pinned locations. Z zero's are automated where optimum.

    >>> yep a daughter board to do a basic feature thats available on most 100-150$ boards, how much is that daughter board btw?

    Not sure anymore. Been a while. I can not fault a company for staying IN business though. Only THEY know their business model. If a company doesn't know their business model, they could end up like any one of the various control manufacturers we have seen disappear over the last 20 years. But, indeed, there are other companies including this into their package. Perhaps you need to try Eding ? I've always anxiously awaited for someone to fully explore what it is and does, then tell us all about it. Price is nice... can't argue that.

    >>> VFD control feedback for one.

    Something beyond the realm of encoder rpm feedback ?

    >>>unfortunately thats just the way usb+windows works they are not designed for RTOS......

    Well, we all get that, but really, In that people scream how expensive FC is, what other cheap options are perfect ? Mach ? Parallel port ? Lol.... Things sure change. Once it was heralded the best on the planet, and it's till got plenty of issues, not to mention the demise of the Parport.

    Now too, a lot of this discussion comes down to what each individual thinks a machine control must do. Myself, I want to set zero, and hit start, have the machine do the job as quickly and as smoothly as possible, then let me know when it is done. I could care less about how its blood is pumped thru its veins to do that. And, so much continues to change !

    I recall when all you could get was a proprietary card.. and DOS. Ugh. ($1000 - $5000)

    Then you had the first parallel option in Ability Systems IndexerLPT (which was quite miraculous at the time). ($995-$1295)

    When Flashcut came out with serial port communication, it was one of the earlier affordable products that used the "black box" methods. Now, not only did it work quite well, it was WINDOWS based, which at the time was essentially unheard of. It also had a pretty decent continuous contouring by late 1997, and it ran from a laptop. NOT BAD ! ($795)


    For the next several years, it really only was Microkinetics who was pushing something that worked with windows in similar fashion (effortless networking and file transfer was the biggest reason to want it), but continuous motion was not their strong point. ($1200)

    At this time, LinuxCNC was still pretty infant. FREE

    Then we endured the years of "you can't do CNC in Windows" baloney from the hobby DOS users, all while people with Flashcut at least were not having anyl problems "in windows" making parts whatsoever. I never knew whether to laugh about it or cry that people had no clue what they were talking about.

    Then we had the "we hate the black box" era, which Art Fenerty took note of and using LinuxCNC and I am sure, some of Art Volta's Indexer as inspiration, came up with a new version "everyday" of Mach. People sure loved "Cheap" ! While I and my company were making parts, the Machers were beta testing. Heck, they are still beta testing. But, cheap still won the day.

    Then it came time when people realized the VALUE of the black box method. But, because black boxes did not come cheap for just anyone to make, people then rallied "we want open source black box" ! Of course no one was able to come out at that time and freely give all their hard work away by handing out black boxes or black box circuits.

    So now, we are almost full circle. You have people realizing that a black box or dedicated card really is the ticket. The black box having a slight edge regards a bit less tied to the continuous changing of internal port configurations. And, with that, we do now see "black box" level products showing up from the eding... kflop etc. type development world at pretty affordable rates. There is just so much more known today about what people want in a control, or even what all the machine variables need to be than existed back in the day. Add to that, now any Tom, Dick or Harry can contract boards to be made at unheard of rates in comparison.

    And, that is where we are today. Everything is really either headed into the once hated black box, or dedicated card. Black box has the upper hand for longevity because USB and Ethernet standards
    will be easier dealt with than internal port changes (how many of them have taken place in the last 20 years ? - how long will they really be retained at this point?) Personally, I see where their could be some really great development from some of the new comers.

    We have seen this from the 3d printer world in GRBL-ish dev. The trick will be, how many people... how many variables will there be of "cheap" that really do not work the way you and I think they should ? Probably more than we will be able to count. How many are YOU willing to buy and play with, only to find out your as upset as you are with FC ? It is a good question !

    I have noticed that V5 from FC regards NON-plasma has been slow in coming. To be fair, I also realize they bit off a VERY large chunk when they decided to also build into their control, full 2d and 3d cad/cam. While certainly nice, it comes at a cost in many ways. One is time..... and time can lose customers, just like you pointing out that there should have been fixes already. It was/is a huge gamble for them, unless of course they know something we don't know, and that could be a move into better OE sales. One could only imagine that an all in one program would fill the bill for many machine builders. I do believe FC V5 is already proving to be an excellent control in the plasma world, but might perhaps be slow because of the price. Hey... people gotta get paid. What can you do about that ?


    >>> yes quite sure, i've changed PC's three times, and i'm using high quality gear, i've been a hardware/software developer for over 30 years, so i know my way around a PC. The crashes are reproducible.

    I've found reproducible crashes over the years, and it always did seem that it was when a setup was specifically a certain way for a certain machine. In other words, one style machine would never see the issue, but anothers would specifically because of something in the way it was set in the setup. That said, when I did find them, I called, and they ALWAYS provided a quick fix. Though I do realize that fixing V4 issues at this point are not going to be a focus of theirs when they are working hard to build a V5.

    Still, something has to be amuk with what you have because I simply do not have crashes. Two plasma cutters, a 6'x12' router, a 30" x 48" router, numerous engraving machines, some homebuilt, some Retro'd NewHermes, Two retro'd Western Engravers, the large Novakon mill...... Short of many of them still running XP PC's, I couldn't be happier. Maybe THAT is the key ? Come to think of it, I dont think any of them are on anything newer than XP.

    Perhaps I was able to enjoy their best times. Not much unlike the XP years, where we as IT admins had lived thru 12 years of things that worked pretty well, now things have started to slide with Windows 8-10. Personally, they provide absolutely nothing in regards a companies productivity... only eye candy for the kiddies. But we are forced into it.

    I have to reflect on Flashcuts long excellent run keeping guys like me pretty happy. One Western machine still runs the same 1997 box it was retrofitted with. With a simple chip swap and newer software, it is still an incredibly capable machine that gets a lot of hobby use these days. Not many companies have been able to keep the same hardware running for so many years.

    >>> i'd like my machine settings, and there are mechanisms like checksums and so on to recover state, a cars ECU has to do it, as do other devices so its not too much to ask.

    So, are we aware of any sub $1000 controllers doing such ? With a lot of these newer programs, it is possible. I've been too functional to even try one of them. Frankly, I'm wanting for a USB control option for Linux as windows really is starting to be annoying. You would think that developers would be really sick of the changes required just over the last few years to keep their offerings operational.
    To me, a hard crash would be a hard crash, and I would find more security in a full reset of the environment in any scenario. If you start reading forums about todays cars (any of them), there are no miracles going on... lots and lots of crazy, that's all. Some of these late model cars are going to be completely unrepairable once the warranty runs out. When you find someone who replaces a dome light bulb with an LED bulb, and the whole car goes crazy, well, to me, that is not a good direction to be headed.

    >>> i'm loading off a ssd, and its slow, its not even loading that much..

    Not seeing that. At the shop, all my files are on a server..... 50% are at home. I can't say I have an issue !

    >>> realtime is important, its an external box with a controller it should be able to do other things like update the DRO's during a probe operation, you might be ok with that, and perhaps thats why you're so happy with it, maybe you're just not driving it hard enough, this is just a mode of operation.

    I think I am ok with it because as the machine is probing, I have literally zero reason to be staring at a DRO for any reason. The numbers are changing so fast, I can't absorb any one of them anyhow. Good thing the machine is though. Nonetheless, it is very clear that V5 was going to spread workloads around far, far different than V4 ever did, or ever could have. It IS a fast changing world regards every possible thing involved. And, I guess it is working.. well, for the plasma world anyhow.


    >>> ok so we agree, its bad, when was the last update? i also agree its old, the GUI is horribly outdated and uses a very old graphics method. however thats not how its marketed.


    V4 is and has been slated for death. It is what it is, and I am sure that FC would like to be much farther along than they are with V5... or, perhaps they are fully content with the plasma market ? I do know they suffered a DEVESTATING loss with the death of one of their really, really brilliant engineers. Take any small company who invests in a really good worker and suddenly to not have them ? It is tough.

    >>> ok sure, but if you look on the flashcut forum you'll see i'm writing various gcode routines to do probing for finding program zero, and finding the center of circles, my version does not update the DRO

    Alright, indeed, I see your work there. Not much unlike how you would do any automated event from simple z zeroing mid job to toolchanging. Very nice. I still do not understand what you need the DRO to show you while it is locating. I run automated zeroing mid jobs... heck, I'm not even there for some. I could care less what the DRO says while it is locating prior to running. I'm sure it would be more relevant to someone building a measuring machine of sorts, but I think even there, the positions found could be written to file if necessary.....

    >>>> ok so again we agree, its broken, they've said they''ll fix it, it happens on 10 minute runs for me. this is becoming a trend.

    I wouldn't hold my breath on anything V4 being fixed these days, but I do not see estimated run times off very much on jobs that run an hour or so.

    >>> nope modern day PC, i can repeat it on multiple PC's at will. i don't have USB issues, today i just swapped out a brand new PC for it, because my other ones cpu fan died. fresh install, fresh hardware, same thing.

    I know you shouldn't have to, but I'd tend to want to crack open that black box and look at all the solder joints and reseat the main chip. Something is not right. If everyone did have this much trouble, you would not see any forum replys that just say "we love it", and "it just works".... because that is what it must be doing. I mean, it does it for me and has been for years !

    Maybe you have a chip with questional firmware ? I have no idea. I assume you only have the one Flashcut control ?

    >>> macros aren't the same thing, custom cycles. its in the Cycles tab, under custom.

    Ok, yes, my bad. No clue. Never bother with the tab. No clue what it does right or wrong. I guess I am not "pushing it enough" !


    >>> me too, but i'm odd that i like to use the features of the software to do what its meant to do, not be broken and force me to go back to a cad/cam and setup a CAM operation to run a facing operation.

    Can't argue that. If they sell it as something that works, it should work.... though, it never bothers people who spend only $150 when it doesn't really work. So it is a price thing.

    >>> so does seem like i said in an earlier post, you're just not using all the features, so you're happy with the subset. which is totally fine, but why defend it to others who're having issues for stuff you don't use?


    I guess because for one, it does not have a small user base. I've been to their facility in Chicago once, and when there, there is no way only a handful of people happy with the subset are using it.... not with that size of a facility, that many employees, and that many systems being assembled and heading out the door.

    So, I defend it because it has for now close to 20 years run every dang machine I threw it on, and with an excellence that has filled my bill. I can not say that for many other controls that have come thru my life, including a LOT of OE controls. Plenty of them are absolute garbage for far more money than FC ! So, I will continue to defend it.

    When someone says it does not work and don't use it, while thousands obviously are using it for something, it should be defended. Heck, even Mach is "defended"... I've never seen a squirllier control. Even mach 4 gets "defended", though to be hones, you do see cracks showing up in that world in the last year now. For some, the most "awesome control on the planet" suddenly no longer fills their bill I guess. It's all part of the evolution of controls.


    >>> it'll be in the next version.

    In the earlier days, I can tell you that I could have a complaint, or even a feature request and more often than not, I had a version with the feature within a week ! But, this whole V5 thing... like I said, it was one, a BIG, BIG dream to fit in the whole cad/cam thing on top of a full rewrite of what the black box was going to carry in comparison to the PC (many of which were not even possible years earlier), and then you toss in the loss of one of their highly regarded engineers. it is what it is. One thing it is, is that I have seen V5 running full blast at trade shows, so I know they have something.


    >> then they shouldn't be advertising it as such, and currently still are.

    Can't argue that. I would not want to if it was my product... but it is not my product. Bosses do funny things... just stop by where I work and I will point some funny things out ! lol !!

    >>> no offence mate, but the amount of stuff in this post you made that you said you're not aware or don't use in flashcut of doesn't really shock me


    Never offended. never. No time for it. It's foolish to read emotion into forum posts.

    >>> there are a lot of people using the older version of flashcut with the SDK they managed to get with MATLAB...

    Do you know what version it was ? The oldest version I think I have running would be one of the first version 3's. Though, with a quick chip flip, I could probably get back to V1.21. Boy, those were the days !

    >>> well first off, flashcut bailed on me, they don't reply to support emails, and they haven't supplied promised SDKs etc. also no updates including any of the promised fixes.

    That is sad to hear... not sure why, pretty sure there will never be any updates to V4 anymore.

    >>> I'm probably going to gut it and rebuild it, the parts inside flashcut don't make are actually pretty nice. the WPI medical stuff is also nice.

    I too always thought the hardware was good... never ever had one fail. I was not aware of the WPI medical stuff.......


    I think you should get a modern competitors product installed and get cracking ! We will all need to know what our "next options" are if all things go to heck. I'm no fan of anything Mach, not too interested in any control that does not even make adjustments available in a gui (like LCNC who thinks no machine would ever need debounce adjustments), or perhaps the KFlop style world where you practically have to be a programmer to figure it out....

    This is what is/was great with Flashcut. Install it on a laptop or pc, plug it in and visually make all the adjustments you require. No hours in forums looking for the hidden INI rules etc. Just RUN !

    Chris

    Chris L


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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by datac View Post
    >>> i don't think its worth the money, so we can agree to disagree there.

    Well, then your options are the old standby at $150 and its shortcomings, or perhaps the two newer USB offerings for the $500 area. With that, your back into USB, but frankly, I do not believe USB is really a problem. In the case of FC, I understand that V4 essentially was a lot of code from very early days, and V5 was going to put a whole lot more operation on the black box rather than the PC. I looked at V5 once, but the two Plasma machines I have that use V4 run perfectly fine, so I don't really need any changes there.

    Perhaps you are a candidate for LinuxCNC ? I've been in and out a few times and always found something that I thought should have worked or worked better. (arc radius issues and debounce as I recall) I have not looked since PathPilot has been the rage.
    Yeah no linuxCNC isn't for me, i like the windows, i like the flashcut hardware, i'd like just like it to be able to do what they claim it can do, i want to automate it as much as possible., and have a nicer more responsive GUI thats usesable and not just there for being there (as it seems)



    >>> Ii'd love to know how to interface an encoder wheel to it then, so please do tell.

    I forgot to mention MPG before, yes, you are right.... No MPG possibilities. Not on V4. Could be I am the odd man out as I always felt they are way over rated. In fact, I have often joked about people who have always bragged about how "cheap" this certain control was, because I guess, they have no money really to spend..... but make any old dangly thing that will plug into Mach, and they will throw all kinds of money at it, even if it does not work ! (Plenty of Mach add-ons never really worked... but hey, it was cheap, right ?)

    I've got machines with MPG's and without. I've got some that are more local that you just push buttons on a fixed box. In the end, it's just a box you grab to jog the machine. I guess I more or less fell in love just using a wireless game controller for all the flatbed style machines, and for me, it has worked perfectly. More perfectly that any MPG. I can jog, change speeds, set zero, start and feedhold just fine. And for less $$ than what guys have been charging for their WIRED mpg's. "Professional looking" ? No. But who cares. It is my favorite jog box. Wireless is the only way especially on the longer machines. So, while I dont have one of those things that make my machine look "pro" hanging there, I still get it done.
    i dont think i want a lot, just a way to set XYZA axis and know it changed, then jog that axis at different speeds.Is that really so much to ask? i'd prefer not to have to go over to the GUI and switch it manually to Jog mode and then have to watch the screen to make sure its in the right mode fast/med/slow and what size steps its taking. i basically want a pendant thats authoritative, and doesn't cause a crash because its not in the mode you think its in, i don't really want to keep looking back at the screen and using the keyboard.

    >>> there aren't enough of the keyboard commands (which isn't the right way to do a jog box, but it'll do)

    What commands are you missing ? The only ones I recall not being able to control are the Axis jog WHILE running a G-code (awesome feature for some machines)
    something to allow an encoder wheel to work., simulating a keyboard is not ideal.


    >>> i don't have a reliable way of having a jog controller than can do xyza + continous/step fast/slow/med with feedback on the jog, i have not found any documentation on that

    You want all that for $1000 ? :-) I'm sure some people need it.. I am just kidding with ya. I never needed anything like that... I jog, set the program zeros and hit the button to run. Then I walk away and wait for an alarm to tell me the machine is waiting for new parts. For many parts, I don't need the jog anytime after it was set up for the first one. Perhaps it's because I always jig my work and have known X-Y fence and or pinned locations. Z zero's are automated where optimum.
    doesn't flashcut charge something like $500 for a limit switch kit which is some wire, a few microswitches and three small aluminium brackets for their cnc conversion kits ?

    yeah i want that for $500 or less whatever the cost of their pendant is., not what is a essentially a numeric keypad which i can buy from amazon for $10.



    >>> yep a daughter board to do a basic feature thats available on most 100-150$ boards, how much is that daughter board btw?

    Not sure anymore. Been a while. I can not fault a company for staying IN business though. Only THEY know their business model. If a company doesn't know their business model, they could end up like any one of the various control manufacturers we have seen disappear over the last 20 years. But, indeed, there are other companies including this into their package. Perhaps you need to try Eding ? I've always anxiously awaited for someone to fully explore what it is and does, then tell us all about it. Price is nice... can't argue that.

    I feel like a 10V should be default on a "PRO" box, i feel like 24V IO tolerant should be as well. That is the choice they made, the hardware inside the box is really nice and really well done, it just lacks features.

    Haven't seen Eding, i'll check it out

    >>> VFD control feedback for one.

    Something beyond the realm of encoder rpm feedback ?
    yeah something beyond that, fault modes, estop, control modes, start/stop etc. the tech has gotten a lot better. modbus is often available.


    >>>unfortunately thats just the way usb+windows works they are not designed for RTOS......

    Well, we all get that, but really, In that people scream how expensive FC is, what other cheap options are perfect ? Mach ? Parallel port ? Lol.... Things sure change. Once it was heralded the best on the planet, and it's till got plenty of issues, not to mention the demise of the Parport.
    its not expensive, but it's not cheap either, especially when you add the daughterboard+limitswitch+pendant, it goes up real fast. i mean c'mon check out that limit switch kit.

    i'd like to see the machine state stored in the controller, the windows side is just the viewer and so on, if the windows app crashes or loose connection ( usb suffers terribly from ground loops and i don't believe its opto isolated on the FC) then the box can still maintain state. and you can safely reconnect without loosing anything. When i looked at the system, thats what i thought it was , this giant box (thats mostly empty) with all these PRO and realtime claims, i thought it'd be a true controller, with a remote, not that the windows box was doing most of the work.


    Now too, a lot of this discussion comes down to what each individual thinks a machine control must do. Myself, I want to set zero, and hit start, have the machine do the job as quickly and as smoothly as possible, then let me know when it is done. I could care less about how its blood is pumped thru its veins to do that. And, so much continues to change !

    I recall when all you could get was a proprietary card.. and DOS. Ugh. ($1000 - $5000)
    sure things are a lot better now, so i'd like to get the benefits of that, DOS was 30 years ago.

    Then you had the first parallel option in Ability Systems IndexerLPT (which was quite miraculous at the time). ($995-$1295)

    When Flashcut came out with serial port communication, it was one of the earlier affordable products that used the "black box" methods. Now, not only did it work quite well, it was WINDOWS based, which at the time was essentially unheard of. It also had a pretty decent continuous contouring by late 1997, and it ran from a laptop. NOT BAD ! ($795)
    and thats all great if we're reminiscing, but we're in a time of cheap powerful microcontrollers and systems that are really good and run in windows, i have a logic analyser that streams at signal rates that are never seen on any CNC anywhere thats windows+usb works great, cost me $10, and my nice one cost $150, it used to be $10K+ and a giant black box, now its one chip.


    For the next several years, it really only was Microkinetics who was pushing something that worked with windows in similar fashion (effortless networking and file transfer was the biggest reason to want it), but continuous motion was not their strong point. ($1200)

    At this time, LinuxCNC was still pretty infant. FREE

    Then we endured the years of "you can't do CNC in Windows" baloney from the hobby DOS users, all while people with Flashcut at least were not having anyl problems "in windows" making parts whatsoever. I never knew whether to laugh about it or cry that people had no clue what they were talking about.
    as someone who has done windows dev since it came out, i've heard all the same crap so i know what you're talking about. I'm not having problems with the windows/flashcut (except the jog lag) they use threads and timers, and windows messaging to control the jog screen, its not always ideal, that is where a RTOS does improve it.


    Then we had the "we hate the black box" era, which Art Fenerty took note of and using LinuxCNC and I am sure, some of Art Volta's Indexer as inspiration, came up with a new version "everyday" of Mach. People sure loved "Cheap" ! While I and my company were making parts, the Machers were beta testing. Heck, they are still beta testing. But, cheap still won the day.
    sure, some people still do, i'm fine with if it works, and if it doesn't as long as they're ok with me taking it apart and making it work


    Then it came time when people realized the VALUE of the black box method. But, because black boxes did not come cheap for just anyone to make, people then rallied "we want open source black box" ! Of course no one was able to come out at that time and freely give all their hard work away by handing out black boxes or black box circuits.
    now move ahead 10 years and look at things like the tinyg/smoothieboard which do have a ways to go yet, but they're really good for whats basically a bunch of volunteers throwing something together.

    So now, we are almost full circle. You have people realizing that a black box or dedicated card really is the ticket. The black box having a slight edge regards a bit less tied to the continuous changing of internal port configurations. And, with that, we do now see "black box" level products showing up from the eding... kflop etc. type development world at pretty affordable rates. There is just so much more known today about what people want in a control, or even what all the machine variables need to be than existed back in the day. Add to that, now any Tom, Dick or Harry can contract boards to be made at unheard of rates in comparison.
    i disagree there, a black box with an open API is what i'd like. not a walled garden. sure i'm the minority of flashcut users, but am i the minority because it doesn't offer those features, or because there aren't many people like me ?

    And, that is where we are today. Everything is really either headed into the once hated black box, or dedicated card. Black box has the upper hand for longevity because USB and Ethernet standards
    will be easier dealt with than internal port changes (how many of them have taken place in the last 20 years ? - how long will they really be retained at this point?) Personally, I see where their could be some really great development from some of the new comers.
    well if i had a vote i'd prefer ethernet/CAN/LIN over USB for control systems.

    We have seen this from the 3d printer world in GRBL-ish dev. The trick will be, how many people... how many variables will there be of "cheap" that really do not work the way you and I think they should ? Probably more than we will be able to count. How many are YOU willing to buy and play with, only to find out your as upset as you are with FC ? It is a good question !
    i didn't buy a 3d printer for ages, since its a toy and i let everyone else sort out the mess, then i picked up a cheap flashforge and it performs poorly and its a PITA, i use it occasionally, however i knew that going into it because thats how they're positioned

    I have noticed that V5 from FC regards NON-plasma has been slow in coming. To be fair, I also realize they bit off a VERY large chunk when they decided to also build into their control, full 2d and 3d cad/cam. While certainly nice, it comes at a cost in many ways. One is time..... and time can lose customers, just like you pointing out that there should have been fixes already. It was/is a huge gamble for them, unless of course they know something we don't know, and that could be a move into better OE sales. One could only imagine that an all in one program would fill the bill for many machine builders. I do believe FC V5 is already proving to be an excellent control in the plasma world, but might perhaps be slow because of the price. Hey... people gotta get paid. What can you do about that ?
    sure i know very little about FC as a company, i'm sure they're doing great stuff, i just want what they sold me to work and have the bits they told me it had before i bought it.

    yep we gotta get paid, i'm totally on for that, but i'm also on the i want what i paid for too, not just marketing speak or promises..

    >>> yes quite sure, i've changed PC's three times, and i'm using high quality gear, i've been a hardware/software developer for over 30 years, so i know my way around a PC. The crashes are reproducible.

    I've found reproducible crashes over the years, and it always did seem that it was when a setup was specifically a certain way for a certain machine. In other words, one style machine would never see the issue, but anothers would specifically because of something in the way it was set in the setup. That said, when I did find them, I called, and they ALWAYS provided a quick fix. Though I do realize that fixing V4 issues at this point are not going to be a focus of theirs when they are working hard to build a V5.

    Still, something has to be amuk with what you have because I simply do not have crashes. Two plasma cutters, a 6'x12' router, a 30" x 48" router, numerous engraving machines, some homebuilt, some Retro'd NewHermes, Two retro'd Western Engravers, the large Novakon mill...... Short of many of them still running XP PC's, I couldn't be happier. Maybe THAT is the key ? Come to think of it, I dont think any of them are on anything newer than XP.
    yeah i run 7, not windows XP . its advertised to work on it. but again i personally feel like some of the flaws are due to the way the GUI handles the jogging, there is a lot of lag between a keyboard/process and then sending via usb to another box. the round trip time for that is a lot.

    you did say earlier i think that you're not doing a lot of that type of thing, so perhaps you're not seeing it because of that. but i can regularly do a continuous jog Z down and every so often you'll hit the Z-/Z+ button the GUI , nothing happens, then you press it again and it'll do two steps.


    Perhaps I was able to enjoy their best times. Not much unlike the XP years, where we as IT admins had lived thru 12 years of things that worked pretty well, now things have started to slide with Windows 8-10. Personally, they provide absolutely nothing in regards a companies productivity... only eye candy for the kiddies. But we are forced into it.
    7 is great, 10 is good, 8 never happened.

    I have to reflect on Flashcuts long excellent run keeping guys like me pretty happy. One Western machine still runs the same 1997 box it was retrofitted with. With a simple chip swap and newer software, it is still an incredibly capable machine that gets a lot of hobby use these days. Not many companies have been able to keep the same hardware running for so many years.
    great, you're a repeat customer, i'm just a guy with one box who never got any answers beyond, no, its coming and no reply at all. you're where their bread and butter is. i'm the guy posting FC is bad. but that was after 10 months.

    >>> i'd like my machine settings, and there are mechanisms like checksums and so on to recover state, a cars ECU has to do it, as do other devices so its not too much to ask.

    So, are we aware of any sub $1000 controllers doing such ? With a lot of these newer programs, it is possible. I've been too functional to even try one of them. Frankly, I'm wanting for a USB control option for Linux as windows really is starting to be annoying. You would think that developers would be really sick of the changes required just over the last few years to keep their offerings operational.
    To me, a hard crash would be a hard crash, and I would find more security in a full reset of the environment in any scenario. If you start reading forums about todays cars (any of them), there are no miracles going on... lots and lots of crazy, that's all. Some of these late model cars are going to be completely unrepairable once the warranty runs out. When you find someone who replaces a dome light bulb with an LED bulb, and the whole car goes crazy, well, to me, that is not a good direction to be headed.
    there are lots of boards that can store state, but the real question is whats sub $1,000 and is closer to professional use and not for the hobby/home/non income user. the smoothieboard is heading in the right direction, it is $150. It's pretty decent, not for a minute am i saying a working shop should be swapping out FC's for something like a smoothieboard, but its coming. that stuff is really improving, i have an accuratecnc360 that i paid $15,000 for to make PCB's about 7 years ago, its great , very precise and works well. but i'm looking at things like the othermill which is a 10th of the cost, and its coming very close to the capabilities.

    a PC is sub $1000 and it does a whole of a lot more than the FC box.


    >>> i'm loading off a ssd, and its slow, its not even loading that much..

    Not seeing that. At the shop, all my files are on a server..... 50% are at home. I can't say I have an issue !
    how long does it take you to loads 20K lines of GCODE?

    >>> realtime is important, its an external box with a controller it should be able to do other things like update the DRO's during a probe operation, you might be ok with that, and perhaps thats why you're so happy with it, maybe you're just not driving it hard enough, this is just a mode of operation.

    I think I am ok with it because as the machine is probing, I have literally zero reason to be staring at a DRO for any reason. The numbers are changing so fast, I can't absorb any one of them anyhow. Good thing the machine is though. Nonetheless, it is very clear that V5 was going to spread workloads around far, far different than V4 ever did, or ever could have. It IS a fast changing world regards every possible thing involved. And, I guess it is working.. well, for the plasma world anyhow.
    how about if you're writing new GCODE and macros to probe circle holes, and program zero, and want to make sure its doing what you think it ought to do, hard to simulate GCODE that requires feedback.

    If i had a machine with DRO's and they just didn't update during certain operations, i'd replace them. i don't always need to know what speed my car is going, or RPM but i expect the gauges to be accurate and always running. just seems off to me.

    wheres that ESTOP line connected too, does it send the signal directly into the box, or does it send it into the box, then down usb to the windows box, then to flashcut, then back to the box? same for the probe?

    [/quote]


    >>> ok so we agree, its bad, when was the last update? i also agree its old, the GUI is horribly outdated and uses a very old graphics method. however thats not how its marketed.


    V4 is and has been slated for death. It is what it is, and I am sure that FC would like to be much farther along than they are with V5... or, perhaps they are fully content with the plasma market ? I do know they suffered a DEVESTATING loss with the death of one of their really, really brilliant engineers. Take any small company who invests in a really good worker and suddenly to not have them ? It is tough.
    i wonder how much the upgrade will be. Sorry to hear about the death. It is tough , i've run my own businesses i get it, but again i'm only really looking for what i was sold, i'm not asking for FC to do the work for me, or change anything (sure fix bugs but they do that or they've stopped working on V4). I'm not saying hey you monkeys i paid a lot of money for this thing, give it to me, i've given up asking them , and the most i asked them for is, can i have the SDK, which they've never responded. i asked three times over the course of a about 3 months.

    If you've seen my other posts i'm doing the work myself and trying to bypass FC and add the bits i wanted, i got the VFD working with FC by poking under the windows hood. But the cost of that is that i'm unhappy about FC, and i'm going vocalise that while i post the solutions i've found, so others in my position can gain, i ain't charging for the work i'm doing (that i feel I did pay FC for btw)


    I'm not complaining about the cost of the box, i do think some of the accessories are outrageously priced though, but i didn't buy em, so as you said earlier, you don't have too, agreed on that .



    >>> ok sure, but if you look on the flashcut forum you'll see i'm writing various gcode routines to do probing for finding program zero, and finding the center of circles, my version does not update the DRO

    Alright, indeed, I see your work there. Not much unlike how you would do any automated event from simple z zeroing mid job to toolchanging. Very nice. I still do not understand what you need the DRO to show you while it is locating. I run automated zeroing mid jobs... heck, I'm not even there for some. I could care less what the DRO says while it is locating prior to running. I'm sure it would be more relevant to someone building a measuring machine of sorts, but I think even there, the positions found could be written to file if necessary.....
    as i said before, i want to see what its doing , its moving so slowly on some moves, and then really fast elsewhere i want to make sure its going in the right direction, i don't want to have to guess if its only searching .5 and the tool won't crash. Crashing a touch probe isn't that great, sure i can do it another way and so on, or i could be using DROs which is what they're designed to do ?

    I just find it odd that anyone would be its OK the DRO's don't update, seems pretty basic, doesn't seem like an unreasonable ask.

    >>>> ok so again we agree, its broken, they've said they''ll fix it, it happens on 10 minute runs for me. this is becoming a trend.

    I wouldn't hold my breath on anything V4 being fixed these days, but I do not see estimated run times off very much on jobs that run an hour or so.
    well if i had done that, i'd be dead 10+ months ago . I see it all the time, especially with more complex GCODE.

    again i'm no longer expecting anything from FC, i'm just getting on with it as best i can, its a lot of work to figure out the internals but i can do it..


    >>> nope modern day PC, i can repeat it on multiple PC's at will. i don't have USB issues, today i just swapped out a brand new PC for it, because my other ones cpu fan died. fresh install, fresh hardware, same thing.

    I know you shouldn't have to, but I'd tend to want to crack open that black box and look at all the solder joints and reseat the main chip. Something is not right. If everyone did have this much trouble, you would not see any forum replys that just say "we love it", and "it just works".... because that is what it must be doing. I mean, it does it for me and has been for years !
    i was in there last night changing the steps for the Z axis, and it looks fine , the chips are soldered not socketed, i'd like to have seen a heavier conformal coating, but just got to keep that box well away from swarf since its not filtered. their hardware is generally really nice, i don't know the connection between WPI and flashcut though.

    Maybe you have a chip with questional firmware ? I have no idea. I assume you only have the one Flashcut control ?
    yep but it when its cutting, its fine. i've cut a lot of stuff on it, i only have issues with the jogging in that sense, so it doesn't feel like its a hardware/box error, its always possible but i think its the design of the UI personally.

    >>> macros aren't the same thing, custom cycles. its in the Cycles tab, under custom.

    Ok, yes, my bad. No clue. Never bother with the tab. No clue what it does right or wrong. I guess I am not "pushing it enough" !
    they're just some mystery box for some mystery customer. yeah maybe you do all the stuff i'm looking for in different software, and have different processes.


    >>> me too, but i'm odd that i like to use the features of the software to do what its meant to do, not be broken and force me to go back to a cad/cam and setup a CAM operation to run a facing operation.

    Can't argue that. If they sell it as something that works, it should work.... though, it never bothers people who spend only $150 when it doesn't really work. So it is a price thing.
    well theres also that whole fanboyism, people get attached to a brand and are loyal to corporations so sometimes they let that sway them.

    >>> so does seem like i said in an earlier post, you're just not using all the features, so you're happy with the subset. which is totally fine, but why defend it to others who're having issues for stuff you don't use?


    I guess because for one, it does not have a small user base. I've been to their facility in Chicago once, and when there, there is no way only a handful of people happy with the subset are using it.... not with that size of a facility, that many employees, and that many systems being assembled and heading out the door.

    So, I defend it because it has for now close to 20 years run every dang machine I threw it on, and with an excellence that has filled my bill. I can not say that for many other controls that have come thru my life, including a LOT of OE controls. Plenty of them are absolute garbage for far more money than FC ! So, I will continue to defend it.

    When someone says it does not work and don't use it, while thousands obviously are using it for something, it should be defended. Heck, even Mach is "defended"... I've never seen a squirllier control. Even mach 4 gets "defended", though to be hones, you do see cracks showing up in that world in the last year now. For some, the most "awesome control on the planet" suddenly no longer fills their bill I guess. It's all part of the evolution of controls.
    i had a similar back and forth with the mach guys a few weeks ago when i was looking for an alternative, i got a similar response from them as yours to this, it works for them, lots of of people use it, what i wanted is dumb/or not in general enough. so i said thanks, and moved on. interestingly a feature that flashcut does have that mach4 no longer does, and one of the reasons i still use FC.

    somehow people think if a lot of people use something, it just works. it makes me feel those people don't realise how much people will put up with when they're invested into a system, rather than being a utilitarian box with a computer that does math and has no care for anything beyond that, it becomes an emotional part of them.



    >>> it'll be in the next version.

    In the earlier days, I can tell you that I could have a complaint, or even a feature request and more often than not, I had a version with the feature within a week ! But, this whole V5 thing... like I said, it was one, a BIG, BIG dream to fit in the whole cad/cam thing on top of a full rewrite of what the black box was going to carry in comparison to the PC (many of which were not even possible years earlier), and then you toss in the loss of one of their highly regarded engineers. it is what it is. One thing it is, is that I have seen V5 running full blast at trade shows, so I know they have something.
    great if they ship V5 as within reason paid update or free to V4 that works on the same hardware, awesome . otherwise i bought a new system that was already obsoleted when i bought it, with no idea that it was and was a dead end, you says thats great customer service, me not so much. i'm sure they're not telling people hey btw this is an EOL product, but its full price and we're not going to update it again, or fix bugs etc.


    >> then they shouldn't be advertising it as such, and currently still are.

    Can't argue that. I would not want to if it was my product... but it is not my product. Bosses do funny things... just stop by where I work and I will point some funny things out ! lol !!
    yeah same everywhere, i get it. but as long as people defend the practice for them,it'll continue.

    >>> no offence mate, but the amount of stuff in this post you made that you said you're not aware or don't use in flashcut of doesn't really shock me


    Never offended. never. No time for it. It's foolish to read emotion into forum posts.
    awesome and frankly unexpected, but very welcome.

    >>> there are a lot of people using the older version of flashcut with the SDK they managed to get with MATLAB...

    Do you know what version it was ? The oldest version I think I have running would be one of the first version 3's. Though, with a quick chip flip, I could probably get back to V1.21. Boy, those were the days !
    v2 or v3, i have the older versions but not the SDK for em, i've tried.

    >>> well first off, flashcut bailed on me, they don't reply to support emails, and they haven't supplied promised SDKs etc. also no updates including any of the promised fixes.

    That is sad to hear... not sure why, pretty sure there will never be any updates to V4 anymore.
    wish they'd mentioned that when i bought it, when instead they did the opposite and said updates and features were coming.

    >>> I'm probably going to gut it and rebuild it, the parts inside flashcut don't make are actually pretty nice. the WPI medical stuff is also nice.

    I too always thought the hardware was good... never ever had one fail. I was not aware of the WPI medical stuff.......


    I think you should get a modern competitors product installed and get cracking ! We will all need to know what our "next options" are if all things go to heck. I'm no fan of anything Mach, not too interested in any control that does not even make adjustments available in a gui (like LCNC who thinks no machine would ever need debounce adjustments), or perhaps the KFlop style world where you practically have to be a programmer to figure it out....

    This is what is/was great with Flashcut. Install it on a laptop or pc, plug it in and visually make all the adjustments you require. No hours in forums looking for the hidden INI rules etc. Just RUN !

    Chris
    naw the mach fanboyism is out of control, its not somewhere i want to go. plus it doesn't support a feature i really like in FC, which i hope they keep in V5.

    sure i had a similar experience with it, i got my FC conversion running in a day. that parts great, but things went a little bit downhill after that. its not quite what its hyped to be. again i'm only looking what was offered.

    i just don't see myself even getting a quote for that daughterboard for the 10V line, simply because of the pendant/limit switch cost. why waste their time asking. no wonder they don't publish prices.

    cheers,
    charlie



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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    since we're rapping. can someone try this in the mdi/gcode

    G31 X-1 I7 S1 E0 F1
    #XC = #Program.X
    I7 needs to be an input, you can simulate it , it'll just return immediately..



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    Default Re: FlashCut CNC questions.

    I have not read all of the long posts, but here are my observations...

    complaints...

    Quote Originally Posted by ME
    It's Windows. I use Windows for my desktop, but dislike it on machines.

    The JOG delays are probably over 1/2 second. That's enormous when you are trying to fine tune something, so it demands you go over to STEP mode, which has the same delay, but at least you know how far it will travel. I had hoped the keypad would fix this, but it is no different.

    They do not listen much to user feedback. I've requested several very simple implementations that would make setups drastically faster, and they won't do it. They come up with lame excuses instead, even for features my Bridgeport DRO has. I don't think I have received any updates since I got my machine in 2013.

    Offset setups are tedious, unless you do it with their touch-off tool. One of my "simple" requests was as simple as "put a textbox here, and subract the number when you click the Set button". Without it, you have to set all your z offsets, then go back into their slow config editor and modify the value to compensate for your pin gauge or 123 block.

    It is tediously slow with large files. It processes every file in the PC, then dumps it to an off-board processor, and if you are doing CAM generated 3d surfacing, plan to wait a while.

    If you use MDI mode, you lose all of your "program" gcode, so you have to reload the file. And wait for it. And wait.

    If you stop the program, it often loses it's program position so you have to memorize the line number you are on.

    Good...

    Quote Originally Posted by ME
    I cannot remember experiencing a crash. Granted, I do not use it continuously, but occasionally I use it very heavily, with long cam-generated 3d surfacing.
    Although you can't customize it extensively, they have a rather complete set of setup options.
    The macro feature is nice.
    The MDI code is saved in an editor, so you can change it and rerun it. On this, it is probably the nicest mdi mode I've ever used. It'd be perfect if you did not lose your "program".

    If you want to transition from Mach, my preference would be to go with LinuxCNC. It's far more responsive, can use any of the same quality hardware, and at least the interface is easily customizable. But I can write code...not everybody can. It's best for people want to tweak it to perfectly suit themselves.

    On the other hand, if you want something that is nearly plug and play, and it meets all of your needs and you will never want to change it or improve it, Flashcut is a fine solution. It's best for those who never want to tinker or tweak their control setup.



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