Thanks for the Thread!! Made my decision on which company. NOT FLA...

[wmgeorge]

Folks do have to remember these FLA machines (or any) are built to a price point. I did not have the money to invest in a whiz bang machine and neither did the rest of the folks on here. So by the time you build the perfect machine and Gary knows what that cost and the time it took just to make a aluminum extrusion bolted together, based machine. I am not sure if he's truly done yet? Cost?

A welded frame stress relieved, and milled slots for the linear rails… what would that cost?? It would be out of my price range as a hobby machine thats for sure. So when building a machine you need to consider the end user and the market price.

Yes there are several USA based machine makers, and they make a quality product, not hobby grade.

[mactec54]

Folks do have to remember these FLA machines (or any) are built to a price point. I did not have the money to invest in a whiz bang machine and neither did the rest of the folks on here. So by the time you build the perfect machine and Gary knows what that cost and the time it took just to make a aluminum extrusion bolted together, based machine. I am not sure if he's truly done yet? Cost?

A welded frame stress relieved, and milled slots for the linear rails… what would that cost?? It would be out of my price range as a hobby machine thats for sure. So when building a machine you need to consider the end user and the market price.

Yes there are several USA based machine makers, and they make a quality product, not hobby grade.

It is very doable to build a welded frame stress relieved, and machined where needed for the Hobby market the price is not much difference than an extrusion built machine, and a machine that you won't have to build again, if the builder is setup to do it and does not over charge for made in the USA, which most do, that is why I'm looking at some smaller machine builds lets see how it turns out before the naysayers get going, I will be aiming at a price point and still be a quality built machine, when you can buy in large quantities Rails and Ballscrews Etc you can get a good price break, prototype builds are always expensive but a good starting point to know if you can then build for less in building large quantities

A snip of about a weeks supply of Rails and Ballscrew THK high quality

[micknm]

...prototype builds are always expensive but a good starting point to know if you can then build for less in building large quantities

A snip of about a weeks supply of Rails and Ballscrew THK high quality

I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with in a smaller format machine!

[GME]

I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with in a smaller format machine!

So am I.

[wmgeorge]

It would be interesting to see what price point your final product will be. If FLA outsourced the frame and gantry to China and still did not have the machine milled as you say and stress relieved, how are you going to do it at a realistic hobby user price? There is no magic, its a lot of work and a lot of start up funding.

[micknm]

I... how are you going to do it at a realistic hobby user price?

It sounds to me like he's already doing it on the existing models being produced, so he is already set up for it. The cost of machining it properly vs not is not as straightforward as looking only at the time and resources spent machining. You also have to balance out the reduced time spent in assembly because everything goes where it belongs in the first place. No shimming, no compensating, etc. I worked for a US CNC manufacturer for many years going back to the mid 90s. Early on they welded the frames in house but sent them out to a large local metal fab shop that was set up for stress relieving and machining the datums into the frames on any frame larger than about 4 x 8. These were typically frames in the 5 x 10 up to 10 x 40 foot size range. The cost averaged about $500 at that time, including trucking them back and forth. Eventually those capabilities were brought in house as volumes increased mainly to reduce lead times and control quality. On average they produce about 5 CNC machines per day.

[wmgeorge]

So the net cost 30 years ago was $500 to build, mill and stress relieve a steel frame. So what do you think todays cost would be… $2000… net, without the rest of the machine being built. Add on the R&P or ball screws, stepper motors, wiring, control panel what another $4000? So $6000 - 7000 your cost to build the machine, Labor costs, profit added on so you have a $8000 - $10,000 sell price. Overhead, marketing and warranty support cost may vary.

Mac's company builds in China and then they finish here in Holland, MI. Ask him what his current 4x8 machines sell for retail?

[micknm]

No, you misread my post. The cost to do the stress relieving and the machining of the datums was $500 24 years ago. And that was to a subcontractor who was making a profit on it. Had we possessed the capacity to do it ourselves in 1995 the cost would most likely have been a wash due to the reduced cost of assembly and QC. Mac does have the capacity because he's currently having it done on his machines.
Read the posts Bill. Our machines in 1995 averaged about $65,000.

[Ntl]

No, you misread my post. The cost to do the stress relieving and the machining of the datums was $500 24 years ago. And that was to a subcontractor who was making a profit on it. Had we possessed the capacity to do it ourselves in 1995 the cost would most likely have been a wash due to the reduced cost of assembly and QC. Mac does have the capacity because he's currently having it done on his machines.
Read the posts Bill. Our machines in 1995 averaged about $65,000.

That company he posted website says it's a Chinese company, so unless he's from China is Chinese and lives there it's not likely that he owns the company. Maybe he will clarify his position with the company or have his people fix the website about us section. I'm not going to speculate further but I will say after looking at the website that I don't think he's the owner unless he's been catfishing everyone on the forum for years that he's from the USA.

[micknm]

That company he posted website says it's a Chinese company, so unless he's from China is Chinese and lives there it's not likely that he owns the company. Maybe he will clarify his position with the company or have his people fix the website about us section. I'm not going to speculate further but I will say after looking at the website that I don't think he's the owner unless he's been catfishing everyone on the forum for years that he's from the USA.

Could be that that's the case, but from one of his previous posts, "I may be building some new smaller machines in the USA starting in the new Year, these will most likely only be proto types and will then be built in GDL's factory to the same spec's this will be for the Hobby market, ."
My assumption has been that his company currently sells GDL manufactured (Chinese) machines here in the US but he would like to start another line for the hobby market, also made by GDL in China for sale here and abroad.

That's not an easy undertaking, even though it doesn't really have much to do with the cost of machining frames. As mactec stated in one post, selling tech to the hobby market is often harder (more or equally costly for far less profit) than selling to industry. I'll use Laguna as an example. They first introduced the IQ to the hobby market, since that was their existing bread and butter market when they entered the CNC realm. They soon realized that smaller pro shops were hungry for affordable CNC. Look at their CNC lineup now - it's almost all industry-oriented machines. I worked a lot of trade shows over the course of 3 decades in the CNC industry. The hobbyist attendees almost always had the most questions and took the most time. Fortunately, times have changed and costs can be mitigated somewhat in terms of training and support via Youtube, forums, etc.

There's a lot of cost involved in supporting CNC. In my opinion, that's why Nate has been able to sell at the price point he has - not because he saves money by not machining the frames, but because he offers so little in terms of support. My entire beef with FLA has been that for very little incremental cost he could have his machines milled properly and save himself and his customers lots of headaches.

[mactec54]

That company he posted website says it's a Chinese company, so unless he's from China is Chinese and lives there it's not likely that he owns the company. Maybe he will clarify his position with the company or have his people fix the website about us section. I'm not going to speculate further but I will say after looking at the website that I don't think he's the owner unless he's been catfishing everyone on the forum for years that he's from the USA.

GDL do not own or operate any company's in the USA but do have an operation in BC, there are many company's that sell there machines under there own brand name world wide, just like Newcnc in the USA which have there own custom build features and to there quality specs

I do not own GDL Just a business partner Designer and very close friend of the owner, which is a very fun guy to be around, No I'm not Chinese and do live in the USA, ( well some of the time ) I'm very connected to GDL as I have mentioned in my Posts over the years Building machines in the USA is very feasible if I need to, I have a large machine / fab shop in ID but I live in TN about 250miles away where I have another small shop at my home which consist of manual and CNC machines injection molding Grinding machines Etc. fabrication of steel or aluminum machines is an easy task in our shops, what is the biggest problem in the USA is the cost of materials steel aluminum Etc this is not the case in China where wood is more expensive than steel

Micknm is correct in having a machined frame, where it is needed is a wash, the cost to assemble is then very simple and reliable, alignment of the rails to a machined shoulder is a snap, and gives the user a very reliable machine, machining usually takes around 1-1/2 to 2 hrs. to machine a medium size machine, so not that much cost involved, just need big machines to do it on which can be a problem in some places if you have to take your machine frame any kind of distance to have it machined

The new machines that will be build will have my new Z axes design which I have been using for 2 years now, so is a tested design and works very well is structurally better and has better rigidity than the normal Z axes that we see on most machines

The Z axes being the most important part of any machine, which usually is just a copy of what everyone else uses in these types of machines Enjoy the ride

[micknm]

Thanks for clarifying, mactec54. Again, I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

[mactec54]

Thanks for clarifying, mactec54. Again, I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

My ideal is to build a machine that is very cost effective having low over heads helps with this, Here is an example some years ago I designed and built machines for $2600, these machines another company copied and built these machines and could not manufacture them for under $5200 they are still making those same machines today that sell for $7000

I did an rough build of the same machine last year and can do it for $1200 so there are ways to be cost affective when you know how, have the equipment to do the work, have minimal outside work done, which I hope to be able to do, but as I have said it costs just as much to build a small machine as it does to build a medium size machine, medium size machines are normally to big for most Hobby users

So what do Hobby users expect price wise, for say a 24" x 48" machine with quality hardware and a ready to run machine

Starter machine sizes I'm considering are

24" x 24" all machines actual cut size with .5 cutter

24" x 36"

24" x 48"

48" x 48" down the road if there is enough interest

Which would be the most used or looked at size machine for the Hobby market ???

[GME]

My ideal is to build a machine that is very cost effective having low over heads helps with this, Here is an example some years ago I designed and built machines for $2600, these machines another company copied and built these machines and could not manufacture them for under $5200 they are still making those same machines today that sell for $7000

I did an rough build of the same machine last year and can do it for $1200 so there are ways to be cost affective when you know how, have the equipment to do the work, have minimal outside work done, which I hope to be able to do, but as I have said it costs just as much to build a small machine as it does to build a medium size machine, medium size machines are normally to big for most Hobby users

So what do Hobby users expect price wise, for say a 24" x 48" machine with quality hardware and a ready to run machine

Starter machine sizes I'm considering are

24" x 24" all machines actual cut size with .5 cutter

24" x 36"

24" x 48"

48" x 48" down the road if there is enough interest

Which would be the most used or looked at size machine for the Hobby market ???

I'm a hobbyist and would be interested in a 48" X 48". So, you have your first bite. Camaster Stinger appears popular, but at $13K base price, I believe it is priced higher than most hobbyist can afford. Although I have nothing solid to back me up, it's my impression that they are popular with small woodworking shops - so not just hobby machines. Personally, my pocketbook would keep me in the $7,500 price range for a 48" x 48". I'm pretty happy with my current machine. I took great pains designing and building it, but I'm not living in fantasy land. However you slice or dice it, it's still a bolt-together aluminum extrusion solution.

I don't have a handle on what users would expect to pay for a 24" x 48" machine. Folks are currently paying $2,400 for Fineline's 2' x 4' Saturn2, but it is not what I consider a quality machine and doesn't have quality components. Avid CNC pro kits are $3,650, and are popular among hobbyists, but they don't use the sort of quality components you are talking about, and don't have anything like the precision a properly built machine would have. They are aluminum extrusion based and the extrusions come from 80/20 with unacceptably loose tolerances. I believe may hobbyists are so price driven that they are willing to accept pretty bad and call it good enough. Although I wouldn't be interested in a 24" x 48" machine at any price, I'm guessing that around $5K would be the max.

Mactec, can I make a suggestion? Start a new thread and check in with the market that way. As of this post, there have been only 2232 views of this thread, and it's under Fineline's subforum. I doubt you are ever going to get much attention here. A discrete thread with a good subject line would probably get more viewers and a lot more feedback. You are well known and respected on CNCzone. On the build you linked to, you had over 78,000 views. That's a lot of interest. Just sayin . . . .

Gary

[Ntl]

My ideal is to build a machine that is very cost effective having low over heads helps with this, Here is an example some years ago I designed and built machines for $2600, these machines another company copied and built these machines and could not manufacture them for under $5200 they are still making those same machines today that sell for $7000

I did an rough build of the same machine last year and can do it for $1200 so there are ways to be cost affective when you know how, have the equipment to do the work, have minimal outside work done, which I hope to be able to do, but as I have said it costs just as much to build a small machine as it does to build a medium size machine, medium size machines are normally to big for most Hobby users

So what do Hobby users expect price wise, for say a 24" x 48" machine with quality hardware and a ready to run machine

Starter machine sizes I'm considering are

24" x 24" all machines actual cut size with .5 cutter

24" x 36"

24" x 48"

48" x 48" down the road if there is enough interest

Which would be the most used or looked at size machine for the Hobby market ???

X2 on thank you for being more clear! You had me worried for a minute there that you were full of it lol.

Looking forward to what you have going on I'd be interested in selling my machine for a 4x4 if you meet your target retail price.

Thanks for the info

[mactec54]

I'm a hobbyist and would be interested in a 48" X 48". So, you have your first bite. Camaster Stinger appears popular, but at $13K base price, I believe it is priced higher than most hobbyist can afford. Although I have nothing solid to back me up, it's my impression that they are popular with small woodworking shops - so not just hobby machines. Personally, my pocketbook would keep me in the $7,500 price range for a 48" x 48". I'm pretty happy with my current machine. I took great pains designing and building it, but I'm not living in fantasy land. However you slice or dice it, it's still a bolt-together aluminum extrusion solution.

I don't have a handle on what users would expect to pay for a 24" x 48" machine. Folks are currently paying $2,400 for Fineline's 2' x 4' Saturn2, but it is not what I consider a quality machine and doesn't have quality components. Avid CNC pro kits are $3,650, and are popular among hobbyists, but they don't use the sort of quality components you are talking about, and don't have anything like the precision a properly built machine would have. They are aluminum extrusion based and the extrusions come from 80/20 with unacceptably loose tolerances. I believe may hobbyists are so price driven that they are willing to accept pretty bad and call it good enough. Although I wouldn't be interested in a 24" x 48" machine at any price, I'm guessing that around $5K would be the max.

Mactec, can I make a suggestion? Start a new thread and check in with the market that way. As of this post, there have been only 2232 views of this thread, and it's under Fineline's subforum. I doubt you are ever going to get much attention here. A discrete thread with a good subject line would probably get more viewers and a lot more feedback. You are well known and respected on CNCzone. On the build you linked to, you had over 78,000 views. That's a lot of interest. Just sayin . . . .

Gary

Thanks Gary I will start a thread but may not be able to reply to it as often as needed so will get lost in the jungle I posted here just testing if there was any interest

[micknm]

Mactec54, I'm pretty much on the same page as Gary in terms of size and interests. Our Saturn2 4 x 4 equipped with AvidCNC controller, NEMA 34 motors, 3Hp spindle and Mach3 was right around $7500. I would gladly pay another $1500 to $2500 for better components and machining. I would like to see a couple of optional heavier spindles, maybe in the 5 - 7.5Hp range and perhaps an option for hybrid motor drives.
Let us know when you can get another thread on CNCzone set up.

[GME]

Just so we are all on the same page, the $7,500 I mentioned was for a fully ready to go frame and axes, but without motors, electronics, leg kit or software. Basically the way Fineline and Avid sell their machines (except Avid's are DIY kits). I want a fully built out frame with pretty much everything else optional. I suppose that would put a turnkey machine around the Camaster Stinger 4 x 4 price range. For someone like me, buying the motors and electronics all over again doesn't fit the budget. This is the tough part of marketing a new product line. Among hobbyists, you are going to find a whole range of customers. Some, like me, want to build out the electronics and are fine with buying the motors. Others wouldn't touch any of it with a 10' pole. Folks are all over the board on motor preferences. Some are good with steppers; some want closed loop steppers; some want servos. So many choices - a blessing and a curse.

Bottom line: I'm not sure any of us are quite sure what you have in mind to sell. If you could dial it in a little closer, you are likely to get more meaningful feedback.

Gary

[mactec54]

Just so we are all on the same page, the $7,500 I mentioned was for a fully ready to go frame and axes, but without motors, electronics, leg kit or software. Basically the way Fineline and Avid sell their machines (except Avid's are DIY kits). I want a fully built out frame with pretty much everything else optional. I suppose that would put a turnkey machine around the Camaster Stinger 4 x 4 price range. For someone like me, buying the motors and electronics all over again doesn't fit the budget. This is the tough part of marketing a new product line. Among hobbyists, you are going to find a whole range of customers. Some, like me, want to build out the electronics and are fine with buying the motors. Others wouldn't touch any of it with a 10' pole. Folks are all over the board on motor preferences. Some are good with steppers; some want closed loop steppers; some want servos. So many choices - a blessing and a curse.

Bottom line: I'm not sure any of us are quite sure what you have in mind to sell. If you could dial it in a little closer, you are likely to get more meaningful feedback.

Gary

Thanks for the feed back Micknm Gary, I only use Ac servos, and have used them for the last 20 years I get a very good price break for using Ac Servos which would cost around the same as any quality stepper system , Controls can be the choice of the machine owner, I have tested most controls that Hobby machine builders use, and have them, plus high end controls

Once you move forward it's had to move back regarding Ac servos, this two could be a choice

I did not know that you brought just the frame and had to add legs to put it on motors and electronics Etc. that would be an easy build at $7500 for the frame with 3 axes 4' x 4' machine size

I guess I'm going to have to start a new thread thanks everyone for your support

[difalkner]

Be sure and link the new thread here, Mac, so we can find it. Looking forward to seeing what you've got!

David