Need Help! Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal


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    Default Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Which is the best way to mount proximity sensors to achieve the highest degree of accuracy and repeatability - vertically, as done with the Saturn 2, or horizontally, as is done with the FLA kit machine and the CNCRP kits? With the Saturn 2, the switch just slides past the target until it trips. On the other, horizontally mounted systems, the target moves head on toward the sensor.

    I like the idea of a vertically mounted sensor, because you can assure you get the maximum travel in any direction. However, I have this nagging doubt that vertical mounting will produce an accurate and repeatable result. I am just about to begin a new build and need to commit to one or the other method.

    Note: I posted to this forum, because FLA machines use both switch orientations.

    Gary


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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Neither get these unless you already have the sensors. https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...limit_switches

    Dan



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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    The ones that came with my Saturn 2 and are working fine, only have either 1/4 or 1/3 the head covered when they trip. Not very much and they work every time. The key is make a adjustment for both the block and the depth of the proximity switch. There are No moving parts inside these and they light up when sensing. They could be mounted in about any position I would guess but check and make sure.

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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Thanks guys. I know how inductive sensors work generally and how to adjust them. I've been using them from the start. The question is accuracy/repeatability in horizontal vs. vertical orientations, i.e., which orientation is more accurate/repeatable? I want my reference all home to be spot on for gantry squaring purposes. I want my mechanical and electronic squaring to work out the same, so there is virtually no gantry flex. I am not a fan of using sensors to square gantry that is not mechanically square.

    I know from experience with my first machine that horizontal mounting works well - even with cheap Chinese sensors (I now have the Pepperl & Fuchs). However, I have no experience with accuracy/repeatability when sensors are mounted perpendicular to the target (where the sensor face slides past the target). My gut tells me that the horizontal (head on) orientation should work better, but I have no real basis for that feeling. However, if the perpendicular orientation works as well as the inline orientation, I like the idea of maybe picking up a little more travel distance. I also really like the idea of using fewer sensors, and having them more conveniently located. In the horizontal orientation, the two front Y sensors are subject to being bumped into all the time. On other forums, there is discussion about making shrouds to protect them.

    To help focus the discussion, I am not concerned about the limit function. Either orientation should work well enough for that. It's really all about accuracy/repeatability with "reference all home" function.

    I suppose I could fabricate my gantry interface plates to permit vertical mounting, also fabricate mounts for horizontal and compare the two. However, it would be better if I could get a solid answer ahead of time to save unnecessary cost, time and effort.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    In the horizontal orientation, the two front Y sensors are subject to being bumped into all the time. On other forums, there is discussion about making shrouds to protect them.

    Gary my sensors are mounted in the gantry both sides just above the rails both Y and B and the pickup block is under. You adjust the sensor up & down to make it pick up sooner and the block could be slid one way or another If It was mounted correctly. , either way no crash can occur unless its the builder error in making the adjustment.

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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Basic difference is that inline puts the sensor in the crush zone and perpendicular takes them out of the crush zone. And they will get crushed if something doesn't go just right... I know from firsthand experience!

    Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal-124-crushed-sensor-jpg

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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    In the horizontal orientation, the two front Y sensors are subject to being bumped into all the time. On other forums, there is discussion about making shrouds to protect them.

    Gary my sensors are mounted in the gantry both sides just above the rails both Y and B and the pickup block is under. You adjust the sensor up & down to make it pick up sooner and the block could be slid one way or another If It was mounted correctly. , either way no crash can occur unless its the builder error in making the adjustment.
    Thank you, Bill. I recall how it went together from the one I sent back. Also, FLA has some good photos on the website depicting the setup. Having used proximity sensors in the past, I assumed that setting them up would be a snap. A potential deficiency on the Saturn 2 was the lack of adjustability of the targets. The 2 screws that hold them in place leave practically no room to adjust them. A wider slot would have solved the issue. On an 80/20 based system, there should be unlimited target adjustability. If I go with the Saturn 2 orientation, I'll probably mill steel targets, as I believe inductive sensors are more sensitive to steel than aluminum.

    Gary



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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Quote Originally Posted by difalkner View Post
    Basic difference is that inline puts the sensor in the crush zone and perpendicular takes them out of the crush zone. And they will get crushed if something doesn't go just right... I know from firsthand experience!

    Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal-124-crushed-sensor-jpg

    David

    David,

    I remember when that happened to you. Not pretty.

    Gary



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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    I have tested them in both of these configurations and both showed great repeatability. So good that I could not say if one configuration is better for accuracy. Both showed about + or - 0.0002" during testing. I have one machine with the target approaching the switch head on, and another machine with the target coming sideways across the face of the sensor. I'm building a third machine and it will have the slide by arrangement.



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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Quote Originally Posted by 109jb View Post
    I have tested them in both of these configurations and both showed great repeatability. So good that I could not say if one configuration is better for accuracy. Both showed about + or - 0.0002" during testing. I have one machine with the target approaching the switch head on, and another machine with the target coming sideways across the face of the sensor. I'm building a third machine and it will have the slide by arrangement.
    What brand did you use? Sound pretty good.
    As Gary said the ones on the FLA machine lacked some adjustments on the blocks but the up and down was ok. Frankly I never had any issues with mine, except for the left side on the X being to high otherwise I would have made new blocks that were adjustable.

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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Quote Originally Posted by 109jb View Post
    I have tested them in both of these configurations and both showed great repeatability. So good that I could not say if one configuration is better for accuracy. Both showed about + or - 0.0002" during testing. I have one machine with the target approaching the switch head on, and another machine with the target coming sideways across the face of the sensor. I'm building a third machine and it will have the slide by arrangement.

    Thank you, 109jb. Just what I was hoping to hear. Looks like I will be making some minor revisions in my gantry interface plates to permit the use of what I termed the vertical arrangement, and what you more aptly described as the the target coming across the face of the sensor. This will mean I can get by with fewer sensors, which is a very good thing. Similarly, I can keep my sensors out of harms way without having to fabricate protective shrouds.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Mine work fine and they are the cheap Chinese ones, I installed all but the z axis since the 2x4 didn't come with them and I requested the hardware. I also am only using one screw so I have a ton of adjustment. And yes when you use steel they are supposed to be more accurate. I think the pick up distance is cut in half when you use steel vs aluminum. I've tested real world repeatability by cutting a .75" hole. Then rehoming the machine and recutting the same hole. It was .003 difference in diameter. I think though it's more than likely due to backlash from the rack and pinion, since the depth didn't change.

    So to answer your question I'm pretty sure that no matter how you mount them they're more than sufficient for routing wood. You'll probably have more issues with the endmill size tolerance issues than the sensors. I measured my .25" the other day and it was actually .2475". I wonder how many people that are caught up in all of this accuracy talk actually measure all their tooling and make those adjustments. Or if they just automatically assume it's a problem with the machine. Same goes for accounting for backlash when they are running rack and pinion.

    Anyway, hope this helps with deciding how to install them Gary.

    Dan



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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Mine work fine and they are the cheap Chinese ones, I installed all but the z axis since the 2x4 didn't come with them and I requested the hardware. I also am only using one screw so I have a ton of adjustment. And yes when you use steel they are supposed to be more accurate. I think the pick up distance is cut in half when you use steel vs aluminum. I've tested real world repeatability by cutting a .75" hole. Then rehoming the machine and recutting the same hole. It was .003 difference in diameter. I think though it's more than likely due to backlash from the rack and pinion, since the depth didn't change.

    So to answer your question I'm pretty sure that no matter how you mount them they're more than sufficient for routing wood. You'll probably have more issues with the endmill size tolerance issues than the sensors. I measured my .25" the other day and it was actually .2475". I wonder how many people that are caught up in all of this accuracy talk actually measure all their tooling and make those adjustments. Or if they just automatically assume it's a problem with the machine. Same goes for accounting for backlash when they are running rack and pinion.

    Anyway, hope this helps with deciding how to install them Gary.

    Dan

    Thank you, Dan. It does.

    I always measure my tooling, but depending upon the job, I may or may not compensate for it.. I also measured backlash in all directions and compensated for it. Interestingly, I did not get a measurable amount of backlash in my X or Y with rack & pinion on my old machine. I know that was bound to change over time, but out of the box, it was good. My acme screw Z axis had a repeatable .001", which I took care of in backlash compensation.

    If you are going after top accuracy, ya gotta know all of the little things that affect it.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    I measured my .25" the other day and it was actually .2475". I wonder how many people that are caught up in all of this accuracy talk actually measure all their tooling and make those adjustments.
    Cut a slot with that bit and measure the slot. I bet the slot is larger than .25.


    My preference for the sensors would be the "slide by" method. You'll never see an industrial grade machine use a sensor in a way that it can make contact with anything.

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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Cut a slot with that bit and measure the slot. I bet the slot is larger than .25.


    My preference for the sensors would be the "slide by" method. You'll never see an industrial grade machine use a sensor in a way that it can make contact with anything.
    I'll try it out tomorrow and let you know what it measures.

    What would make it bigger, runout from the spindle?

    I've never had that problem with a drill bit, but I'm new to routing so I'm just curious what would cause it to be bigger than the endmill.

    When I cut a 0.75" counter boar hole in MDF it measures 0.747" and at first I thought it was something with the machine. Then I measured the endmill and realized it wasn't exactly 0.25" in diameter and was 0.2475". So for the heck of it I'm going to change the tool diameter to the actual measured diameter and rerun the test and see what I get. I'll post some pics or run a video for you. Either way it's pretty darn close to cutting perfect. I also need to read up on cutter comp and see where the best place is to make the adjustments, in the cam software or in the control software.

    Dan



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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    My preference for the sensors would be the "slide by" method. You'll never see an industrial grade machine use a sensor in a way that it can make contact with anything.

    Thank you, Gerry. I appreciate the information and confirmation. Makes sense that industrial grade machines would be designed to keep sensors out of harm's way. As I think about it, it makes sense on most machines.

    Gsry




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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    so I'm just curious what would cause it to be bigger than the endmill.
    Yes, runout, and possibly flex in the machine.

    How are you measuring the tool? It's very difficult to measure the actual diameter of a router bit. Not saying it's not smaller, though.

    A 1/4" spiral bit is made from a blank of 1/4" carbide. If the grinding machine is off just a little, the bit will be smaller.


    When I cut a 0.75" counter boar hole in MDF it measures 0.747" and at first I thought it was something with the machine.
    I wouldn't count on automatically getting better than .003" on something like that. Just changing the feedrate can change the size that much.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post

    Thank you, Gerry. I appreciate the information and confirmation. Makes sense that industrial grade machines would be designed to keep sensors out of harm's way. As I think about it, it makes sense on most machines.

    Gsry
    Thats the way my Saturn 2 is made.

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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Yes, runout, and possibly flex in the machine.

    How are you measuring the tool? It's very difficult to measure the actual diameter of a router bit. Not saying it's not smaller, though.

    A 1/4" spiral bit is made from a blank of 1/4" carbide. If the grinding machine is off just a little, the bit will be smaller.




    I wouldn't count on automatically getting better than .003" on something like that. Just changing the feedrate can change the size that much.
    I was just using my digital calipers, the shank is exactly 0.25" but not the tip. I honestly never really thought about it until the other day when I was testing the homing on my machine after the new firmware update. Out of curiosity I wanted to see how repeatable it was.

    That's when I realized that the end mill was a little undersized.

    Thanks for the info on the the run out and other things that can affect the actual cut dimensions. The depth is dead on so I was wondering if it was the ballscrew vs rack and pinion.

    But after what you said, it sounds like it's a combination of things. Honestly for the the type of work I'm using it for I was happy to see the .003 , I thought it was pretty good for a router like mine.

    I did look at the run out on you suggestion and it's fluttering +- .003 not sure if if that's good or bad for a Huanyang? Also I'm not sure sure how accurate that measurement is since I don't have a dial test indicator only a dial indicator. And I had to measure off the shank of the endmill, which I'm not sure if that's the right place.

    The only reason I brought anything up was just out of curiosity and being new to the router world.

    Thanks for the advice and information Gerry.



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    Default Re: Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    I was just using my digital calipers, the shank is exactly 0.25" but not the tip. I honestly never really thought about it until the other day when I was testing the homing on my machine after the new firmware update. Out of curiosity I wanted to see how repeatable it was.

    That's when I realized that the end mill was a little undersized.

    Thanks for the info on the the run out and other things that can affect the actual cut dimensions. The depth is dead on so I was wondering if it was the ballscrew vs rack and pinion.

    But after what you said, it sounds like it's a combination of things. Honestly for the the type of work I'm using it for I was happy to see the .003 , I thought it was pretty good for a router like mine.

    I did look at the run out on you suggestion and it's fluttering +- .003 not sure if if that's good or bad for a Huanyang? Also I'm not sure sure how accurate that measurement is since I don't have a dial test indicator only a dial indicator. And I had to measure off the shank of the endmill, which I'm not sure if that's the right place.

    The only reason I brought anything up was just out of curiosity and being new to the router world.

    Thanks for the advice and information Gerry.

    Dan,

    From what I've read, .003" of runout is terrible. It will cause your cutters to wear out faster. What collects/collet nuts are you using? Techniks is a very good brand. Cheap collects and collet nuts are always suspect, when it comes to runout. Best to get a precision metal dowel to insert in the collet for measurement purposes. As you suggested, you need a good test indicator for the job. You also need to measure inside the spindle, where the collet seats. In fact, that's a good starting point for sorting things out. If the collet seat is way off, nothing is going to reduce runout much.

    Here's are a couple of links you may find useful:

    https://www.precisebits.com/tutorial...dle_runout.htm

    https://www.cnccookbook.com/spindle-...fix-tool-life/

    Gary




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Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal

Inductive Proximity Switch Mounting - Vertical vs. Horizontal