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  1. #25
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    Default Re: Mach 4 Users

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Hi Gary, I am sure you already have read it but the built that ericks is doing looks to be super strong. The reason other builders are not concerned about the .002 inch is because the machine has adjustments. As long as its not .5 that .002 is of no importance.
    Good afternoon, Bill. As I mentioned, .002" translate to more than 1/8" over the length of a 70" extrusion. IMO, that's a lot. If I could count on the error going the same way on each piece, adjustment might be possible. Unfortunately, it doesn't. The attachment method does not allow me to simply rotate the piece 90 degrees to keep the error going in the same direction. With some pieces, the error is top to bottom. With others, it's side to side. So, in one direction, the cross rails will try to force a parallelogram. In the other direction, the rails will try to force an angle in/angle out situation. Hard to adjust for. The only real solution I've found is to either mill the ends square, or use shims to square out everything.. I prefer the former.

    I used shims on my first machine, with some success. The first machine was easier, because the error went in the same direction for each piece. The extrusions were 1.5" x 3", so when it was cut, it was all cut in the same orientation. I'm using 3" x 3", which presents a different situation. You have to know about the milling for anchor fasteners, like CNCRP uses, to fully understand the problem. BTY, the term "easier" is relative. All-in-all, shimming was a nasty job.

    As you know, one thing in CNC construction builds on others. If one thing is off, and you attach something else to it with an error, the error will either compound, or if you get very lucky, the errors will cancel out. The way my machine goes together, no amount of luck will allow the error to cancel out. All this translates to getting my linear rails aligned properly. On an extrusion-based machine, as with a welded one, the linear rails have very little adjustment. If I start introducing a lot of error at every stage of the frame, it's not hard to predict that it could become impossible to properly align the rails. Sure, I could mill add-on plates to align the rails better, but I would prefer to avoid that option. As has been commented on regarding the defective Saturns, you shouldn't have to do that on a properly constructed frame. Also, there are a lot opinions that the Saturn 2 should have milled surfaces.

    As I commented before, I suspect that most who buy 80/20-based machines have no idea about 80/20's cut tolerances. They are not easy to find, unless you know where to look. I found them by accident. They were buried in the machining part of their catalog. Having said that, CNCRP owners seem very happy with their machines, and do what the owners want them to. On the flip side. I don't see many doing a lot of inlay or dovetail work.

    Yes, I've been following ericks's build. I agree it looks like a strong machine. Also, looks like a lot of attention to detail, and no skimping on assembly accuracy.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Mach 4 Users

    Gary, All machines have adjustments to compensate for errors in layout or machine tolerances. Back in the 1880 - 1940's they did not have machines as mills and lathes built to +/- .001 but they got the job done. It was the operator who made the difference. If you look at the steam and water turbines built for power generation, back in the day. Some are still running today. Lots of fine work done with less than perfect machines. My first metal lathe was made in the Year and almost to the month I was born. SB Heavy 10 42 inch I think bed, it was sitting in a electrical pump and motor repair shop where it had been since the late 1940's. They wore it out, and it was still sitting in that same shop when I purchased in 1990 something. They even gave me a new single phase motor to install on it as the old was 3 phase of course. They ended up with a new lathe and I ended up with a new to me lathe. Made some nice stuff on that old South Bend. I even made and sold some items that had patents I had applied for and they worked fine. But alas the patents expired without a sale .

    I know you are building the way you want it done, and I am excited to see the results. But do you think all those other machines from CNCRP are making out of square or out of round projects? There has been some nice stuff posted on here made even with the Saturn2 like I am using everyday.

    But I am at an age now where I just want to make stuff, and I will have my grandson over next week, to build a birdhouse, so we will see how it turns out. Best of luck on your project and I am really looking forward to seeing iit n the metal.... so to speak!!

    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router


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    Default Re: Mach 4 Users

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post

    But I am at an age now where I just want to make stuff,
    So am I. At this point, I'm making a machine. Once I get it done, I'll make other stuff. I'm still working on a model of a 2 sided 42" king salmon. Probably won't sell any, because the machine hours will make the cost pretty high. However, I have a cottage on the Washington coast that's calling out for it. I also plan to make an old style ships wheel that will be the major element for a coffee table - also for the beach house. It will help to have a rotary axis to cut the handles. A rotary axis is in the plan, but for a later day.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Mach 4 Users

    Bill

    How's it going with Mach4. Have you got the demo working right? Is the setup going okay?

    Gary




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    Default Re: Mach 4 Users

    Gary I have it Downloaded on the Shop router computer and that’s it. Today was the first sunny, no rain no snow above 49 DegF day we have had in two months. So may be doing outside stuff soon.

    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router


  6. #30
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    Default Re: Mach 4 Users

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    Good afternoon, Bill. As I mentioned, .002" translate to more than 1/8" over the length of a 70" extrusion. IMO, that's a lot. If I could count on the error going the same way on each piece, adjustment might be possible. Unfortunately, it doesn't. The attachment method does not allow me to simply rotate the piece 90 degrees to keep the error going in the same direction. With some pieces, the error is top to bottom. With others, it's side to side. So, in one direction, the cross rails will try to force a parallelogram. In the other direction, the rails will try to force an angle in/angle out situation. Hard to adjust for. The only real solution I've found is to either mill the ends square, or use shims to square out everything.. I prefer the former.

    I used shims on my first machine, with some success. The first machine was easier, because the error went in the same direction for each piece. The extrusions were 1.5" x 3", so when it was cut, it was all cut in the same orientation. I'm using 3" x 3", which presents a different situation. You have to know about the milling for anchor fasteners, like CNCRP uses, to fully understand the problem. BTY, the term "easier" is relative. All-in-all, shimming was a nasty job.

    As you know, one thing in CNC construction builds on others. If one thing is off, and you attach something else to it with an error, the error will either compound, or if you get very lucky, the errors will cancel out. The way my machine goes together, no amount of luck will allow the error to cancel out. All this translates to getting my linear rails aligned properly. On an extrusion-based machine, as with a welded one, the linear rails have very little adjustment. If I start introducing a lot of error at every stage of the frame, it's not hard to predict that it could become impossible to properly align the rails. Sure, I could mill add-on plates to align the rails better, but I would prefer to avoid that option. As has been commented on regarding the defective Saturns, you shouldn't have to do that on a properly constructed frame. Also, there are a lot opinions that the Saturn 2 should have milled surfaces.

    As I commented before, I suspect that most who buy 80/20-based machines have no idea about 80/20's cut tolerances. They are not easy to find, unless you know where to look. I found them by accident. They were buried in the machining part of their catalog. Having said that, CNCRP owners seem very happy with their machines, and do what the owners want them to. On the flip side. I don't see many doing a lot of inlay or dovetail work.

    Yes, I've been following ericks's build. I agree it looks like a strong machine. Also, looks like a lot of attention to detail, and no skimping on assembly accuracy.

    Gary
    Yeah I know what you mean Gary I had to take .06" off my spoil board to level the bed. My machine bed was far from being flat, .06 higher on the +y than the -y also off a bit on the x axis. The good thing is though it doesn't matter for cutting since now I have a flat surface. The part that matters obviously after what you delt with is the linear motion. I'm getting great results now after a ton of work, but the machine s still not right and it bugs me. Post some pictures of your new router build.


    Dan



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    Default Re: Mach 4 Users

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Post some pictures of your new router build.


    Dan

    Dan,

    I've got a few more tasks to complete, before I get started on my build. I am making a leveling base for my mill, and have to complete my design of my milling support to allow me to mill/square the ends of the long extrusions. Once I get to actual extrusion milling, I will start a build thread, including lots of pictures. Hopefully, I can get my mill to a point where it will do what I want it to. Worst cases, I'm back to shimming.

    Gary




  8. #32
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    Default Re: Mach 4 Users

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    Dan,

    I've got a few more tasks to complete, before I get started on my build. I am making a leveling base for my mill, and have to complete my design of my milling support to allow me to mill/square the ends of the long extrusions. Once I get to actual extrusion milling, I will start a build thread, including lots of pictures. Hopefully, I can get my mill to a point where it will do what I want it to. Worst cases, I'm back to shimming.

    Gary
    Not to get you into another project, but have you checked out Franco's PM CNC conversion? There's a company called Heavy Metal that sells the ballscrew motor mount kits. I really want to build one, one day lol.

    Dan



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    Default Re: Mach 4 Users

    I am Really wanting to see Gary’s big Fish project done!

    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router


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    Default Re: Mach 4 Users

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Not to get you into another project, but have you checked out Franco's PM CNC conversion? There's a company called Heavy Metal that sells the ballscrew motor mount kits. I really want to build one, one day lol.

    Dan

    Thanks, Dan. Appreciate your thinking of me.

    I've followed Franco on Youtube for sometime now. Actually, converting my mill to CNC is on my to do list after I finish my router. I'll need to build another controller, buy steppers, etc., so I'll have to budget both time and money for the project. For now, the DROs I added to my mill make the process a lot quicker, easier, and a lot more accurate.

    I hadn't heard of Heavy Metal CNC before. When I checked their site, I noted that the PM-25MV is not among the kits they offer, or even developing. The best reviews appear to go to Dave at ArizonaVideo99, who I've also followed for a good while. He repacks his ball nuts to reduce backlash. Good attention to detail.

    Do you have a mill, or when you say you want to build one, are you talking about the having to start from scratch? The dollars sure add up, don't they?

    This CNC stuff gets pricey, especially for someone like me who does it for a hobby. I might make some stuff for craft fairs out at the coast and in the Seattle burbs. Maybe pay for some of my materials and recoup some equipment costs. However, no interest in growing a business. If I wanted to keeping working, including the commitments associated with it, I wouldn't have retired.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Mach 4 Users

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I am Really wanting to see Gary’s big Fish project done!

    So am I.



  12. #36
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    Default Re: Mach 4 Users

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post

    Thanks, Dan. Appreciate your thinking of me.

    I've followed Franco on Youtube for sometime now. Actually, converting my mill to CNC is on my to do list after I finish my router. I'll need to build another controller, buy steppers, etc., so I'll have to budget both time and money for the project. For now, the DROs I added to my mill make the process a lot quicker, easier, and a lot more accurate.

    I hadn't heard of Heavy Metal CNC before. When I checked their site, I noted that the PM-25MV is not among the kits they offer, or even developing. The best reviews appear to go to Dave at ArizonaVideo99, who I've also followed for a good while. He repacks his ball nuts to reduce backlash. Good attention to detail.

    Do you have a mill, or when you say you want to build one, are you talking about the having to start from scratch? The dollars sure add up, don't they?

    This CNC stuff gets pricey, especially for someone like me who does it for a hobby. I might make some stuff for craft fairs out at the coast and in the Seattle burbs. Maybe pay for some of my materials and recoup some equipment costs. However, no interest in growing a business. If I wanted to keeping working, including the commitments associated with it, I wouldn't have retired.

    Gary
    Ah I didn't know that he didn't have a pm25 kit. And no I wouldn't try to build a mill, just interested in a cheap table top one to convert to cnc if they are capable of milling steel since the router will handle aluminum pretty well, probably better than one of the table top Chinese mills since the mills don't seem to go above 2500rpm. It's more of a wish list than anything right now. Honestly a small lathe would be more useful, but I have no clue on how to use one.

    Dan



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