Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh. - Page 3


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Thread: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

  1. #25
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    Default Re: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I don't know about you but we have had some extreme temperature changes over the past few weeks. Do you keep your shop at a constant temperature or like me its only 70 when I am working. If you have a slab on grade perhaps its changed, I would check your machine for level. Seems odd that your machine was fine after you set it up a few months ago and now its off?

    CNC RP does not do any machining on their frames, but it looks to be all readily adjustable.
    Yes, it's climate controlled. Machine is level. We set it up over a year ago and this is the first time we've had these issues. Stress relieving (or more precisely, failure to stress relieve) could cause distortion in the frame. When steel is welded it distorts because you're heating one area and not the one next to it. Over time it "relaxes". I believe that may be contributing.

    Saturn 2 4848
    CRP Plug & Play NEMA 34, 2.2kw Spindle, Mach3


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    Default Re: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

    Mick as I see it, IF there were some adjustment built into the design it could all be corrected. But this linear rail mounting depends on the top tubing being flat, square and on the same plane. Whereas other designs mount the linear rail on the side of the square tube. I was surprised you are able to get enough adjustment out of yours to make it right.

    Do me a favor and look at the Camaster or other welded steel frames you will see what I mean. No milling required, and as Gary found out its not a practical solution.

    My flat plate with the slotted adjustment and linear rail mounted on top is one way to make it work on the ones already out there.


    Lot of detail here>

    Last edited by wmgeorge; 01-30-2019 at 09:35 AM.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router


  3. #27
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    Default Re: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Mick as I see it, IF there were some adjustment built into the design it could all be corrected. But this linear rail mounting depends on the top tubing being flat, square and on the same plane. Whereas other designs mount the linear rail on the side of the square tube. I was surprised you are able to get enough adjustment out of yours to make it right.

    Do me a favor and look at the Camaster or other welded steel frames you will see what I mean. No milling required, and as Gary found out its not a practical solution.

    My flat plate with the slotted adjustment and linear rail mounted on top is one way to make it work on the ones already out there.

    I'm not sure what difference, if any, it makes whether the rail is top or side mounted. Both work fine if the tube (datum) is straight.

    If I bought a CAMaster and it was out of quoted tolerances as much as our machine was I would post the same complaints on their forum. Nate quotes .001" repeatability - CAMaster quotes .001". They've obviously figured out a workaround if their frames are not machined. Maybe some of the additional cost goes to shimming and QC in addition to the obvious turnkey items. For what it's worth, I'll almost certainly recommend a CAMaster when the school where I teach pops for a router. I've heard very few complaints.

    On the upside, our efforts appear to have paid off. The machine is running much, much more smoothly and after running a few calibration routines is cutting closer to quoted specs than ever. I'll put a detailed description of our process together and post it as soon as soon as I get a chance.

    Saturn 2 4848
    CRP Plug & Play NEMA 34, 2.2kw Spindle, Mach3


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    Default Re: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

    I’m glad things are improved.

    The reason I posted the video was so you could see the adjustablity built into the Camaster. Notice the linear rail is under the table. It can be raised or lowered, as required No machining needed. Both the rail and gear rack can be adjusted.

    The Camaster Forum is pretty tightly controlled. Make a comment, a not nice one and see how long it stays up. Unlike CNC Zone where non FLA owners can drop in.

    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router


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    Default Re: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

    Bill, you must have linked to a different video. The one posted is a guy sitting on his router table talking about how much he likes his router for 10 minutes.

    The problems with our machine were twofold. The rack was curved along the Y axis on both sides.The rails were also curved along the Y axis. Surprisingly, neither was measurably out vertically, so raising or lowering the rails would not have helped.

    Saturn 2 4848
    CRP Plug & Play NEMA 34, 2.2kw Spindle, Mach3


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    Default Re: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

    The point I am trying to make, If you lookedat the construction of the Camaster it allows for adjustments to be made Whereas the FLA does not. So if the CM was not welded prefect, it could be corrected. 20 years from now if it’s moved, the CM can be adjusted,

    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router


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    Default Re: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

    Yes, I get it. I'm not trying to argue with you, Bill. The point I was trying to make was that Nate should build his machines to the tolerances he claims. He doesn't.
    Before we bought this machine I talked to Nate at length. After learning of my decades of experience in industrial CNC routers he indicated to me that he would welcome my input on what I thought he could do differently. That's what I'm trying to do.

    Saturn 2 4848
    CRP Plug & Play NEMA 34, 2.2kw Spindle, Mach3


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    Default Re: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

    Quote Originally Posted by micknm View Post
    Yes, I get it. I'm not trying to argue with you, Bill. The point I was trying to make was that Nate should build his machines to the tolerances he claims. He doesn't.
    Before we bought this machine I talked to Nate at length. After learning of my decades of experience in industrial CNC routers he indicated to me that he would welcome my input on what I thought he could do differently. That's what I'm trying to do.
    Great now maybe something will change, my understanding they are now milling the steel on the gantry where it mounts to the bearing plate. How much adjustment were you able to get on the rails? Gary GME said his calculations showed there was not enough on the rails mounting holes to make it feasible.

    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router


  9. #33
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

    If you looked at the construction of the Camaster it allows for adjustments to be made Whereas the FLA does not
    Do you have any pictures or other info on how they can be adjusted? If they are bolted to the steel rails then they would be no more adjustable than the FLA machines?

    I've never heard of anyone having to adjust linear rails or gear racks on a Camaster, and for $20K-$50K, you better not ever need to.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  10. #34
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

    There's a machine build here that's local to me where a welded machine frame was stress relieved and machined, for I think under $400.
    If Nate is serious about building a quality machine, he should be able to do this for maybe ~$500 or so.
    As long as he is bolting rails and rack to an unmachined frame, the quality will always be suspect.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  11. #35
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    Default Re: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

    The amount of rail adjustment is limited to the difference in the rail bolt hole diameter and the bolt diameter without redrilling and tapping the bolt holes. We never put an indicator to it. We simply used a spreader bar and clamps to make them as parallel as we could and it worked (for us).

    The Saturn 2 frame is rigid enough that IF it were cut, welded, stress relieved, machined and finally, painted it should hold tolerances (assuming it's leveled properly) withought ever having to make rack or rail adjustments. Those two missing italicized steps are critical to reaching the .001" repeatability and .005" accuracy that Nate claims.

    Saturn 2 4848
    CRP Plug & Play NEMA 34, 2.2kw Spindle, Mach3


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    Default Re: Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

    100% in agreement. I worked at the manufacturing facility for several years when I was with MultiCam. Early on they subcontracted to a local place to have their frames and gantries stress received and machined. Then they bought their own mill and were able to do it in house for anything up to around a 80" x 144" frame. Anything over, they sent out. Then they bought another mill with a 10' x 30' capacity. Anything longer than 30' they manufacture in sections.

    The only machine I remember ever having to make any adjustment to the racks or rails on was a machine we used while running tests for an aircraft window manufacturer. They cast their own acrylic and needed to flatten it prior to polishing on a separate machine. Our machine flattened it to well within specs, but there were periodic parallel ripples visible across the width, so slight that you could only see them in the right light. We determined that the torque on the rack bolts needed to be adjusted so that there was less flex. Problem went away.

    Saturn 2 4848
    CRP Plug & Play NEMA 34, 2.2kw Spindle, Mach3


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Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.

Yet another welding/machining/misalignment problem on Saturn 2. Sigh.