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Thread: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    BTW just for kicks I went to my cold shop (45 F) and checked my 3 inch square tubing with my Starrett precision square and its not dished. According to my precision straight edge its not warped or bent either.

    Like Gerry pointed out, you do not need a perfect machine to do good work. Ever given any thought to those machines like turbines and engines, made back in the 1890's or so with lathes and milling machines in the day? Some of those machines are still being used today. It was the machinist and millwrights skill, not the old sloppy machines that made them.
    You have one of the first machines right? I think like you and others have said that the people he has making the frame pulled a bait and switch on him. My machine has some significant dishing, talking like in the range of 0.03" I haven't put a feeler gauge on it yet but eyeballing it that would be my guesstimate.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada-20190209_152411-jpg   Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada-20190209_152941-jpg  
    Last edited by Ntl; 02-09-2019 at 06:36 PM. Reason: Pictures added


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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Purchased May 2018 and shipped later in July at my request because we had to clean up flood damage. No my machine cut accurately out of the box so to speak. I did need to shim the Z a bit but I think tramming is normal. There were minor things I needed to correct but I feel very blessed as to what I am reading on here.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    BTW just for kicks I went to my cold shop (45 F) and checked my 3 inch square tubing with my Starrett precision square and its not dished. According to my precision straight edge its not warped or bent either.

    Like Gerry pointed out, you do not need a perfect machine to do good work. Ever given any thought to those machines like turbines and engines, made back in the 1890's or so with lathes and milling machines in the day? Some of those machines are still being used today. It was the machinist and millwrights skill, not the old sloppy machines that made them.

    Wow! I have seen a lot of square tubing, and have never seen any that didn't have some dish across the width. Good for you. Looks like you hit the jackpot.

    I'm taken back to an earlier discussion. Could be the early frames were made well, maybe to get purchase commitments. At some point, the mfgr decided sub out to some jackleg company, or just decided to abandon quality to maximize profits. Whatever it was, folks are now seeing the result. Very sad. I've seen how it can go with woodworking machines. Two companies here in the states can sell the same machine, one is a great; the other is junk. On of the companies sells quality machines and commands a price for them. The other is more interested in turning and burning at a cheaper price and quality is hardly a secondary consideration. The same factory in China may make both machines, but they know that they will lose their contract for the quality machines, if they play games. Maybe as much to the point, the quality companies may have their own QC folks in China. The mfg's are also getting paid more for a better product. At the end of they day, you usually get what you pay for (but not always).

    I doubt much is going to change on the Saturn series machines unless or until FLA puts pressure on the mfgr or looks for another one. Problem is, I don't get the impression he is a high volume outfit. You have to have something to bargain with. Low volume doesn't give much bargaining power. Carrying on FLA as a part time business does add much encouragement.

    Dan,

    The linear rails on the Saturn are CHTR brand. Chinese, I think. You will find CHTR on your bearing blocks. They are pretty cheap, especially compared to quality brands, like Hiwin. I tried to look them up, but there's not much out there on them. No pamphlet guides like Hiwin puts out. I've found them for sale on sites like AliExpress and Alibaba. I haven't seen them for sale here in the States. Note that the linear rails aren't installed on the frames at the mfgr. Nate adds them to the frame in his shop. I know this, because my machine delivery was delayed waiting for the rails to clear customs (at least that's what Nate told me).

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    The tolerance of 4130 flat bar is +- 0.006 from the mill. With that said the most efficient way of making them would be to have them water jet or laser cut from plate since he needs to fix a lot of machines anyway. Then after they are cut out have a quick second op on a mill for the little bit of machining that would be needed.


    Nate provided some fixes when the machines were in the prototype phase. I will be very surprised if he provides fixes for all of the problems now cropping up. For everyone's sake, I hope I'm wrong; however, I wouldn't be holding my breath. I think, under the most optimistic scenario, the choices are likely to be 1. exchange it, 2 take a discount of some short, or 3. send it back.

    Gary



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    Wow! I have seen a lot of square tubing, and have never seen any that didn't have some dish across the width. Good for you. Looks like you hit the jackpot.

    I'm taken back to an earlier discussion. Could be the early frames were made well, maybe to get purchase commitments. At some point, the mfgr decided sub out to some jackleg company, or just decided to abandon quality to maximize profits. Whatever it was, folks are now seeing the result. Very sad. I've seen how it can go with woodworking machines. Two companies here in the states can sell the same machine, one is a great; the other is junk. On of the companies sells quality machines and commands a price for them. The other is more interested in turning and burning at a cheaper price and quality is hardly a secondary consideration. The same factory in China may make both machines, but they know that they will lose their contract for the quality machines, if they play games. Maybe as much to the point, the quality companies may have their own QC folks in China. The mfg's are also getting paid more for a better product. At the end of they day, you usually get what you pay for (but not always).

    I doubt much is going to change on the Saturn series machines unless or until FLA puts pressure on the mfgr or looks for another one. Problem is, I don't get the impression he is a high volume outfit. You have to have something to bargain with. Low volume doesn't give much bargaining power. Carrying on FLA as a part time business does add much encouragement.

    Dan,

    The linear rails on the Saturn are CHTR brand. Chinese, I think. You will find CHTR on your bearing blocks. They are pretty cheap, especially compared to quality brands, like Hiwin. I tried to look them up, but there's not much out there on them. No pamphlet guides like Hiwin puts out. I've found them for sale on sites like AliExpress and Alibaba. I haven't seen them for sale here in the States. Note that the linear rails aren't installed on the frames at the mfgr. Nate adds them to the frame in his shop. I know this, because my machine delivery was delayed waiting for the rails to clear customs (at least that's what Nate told me).

    Gary
    I 100 agree with you on what more likely than not happened with the qc. The other thing that complicates things is the Chinese steel that is used, the factory probably bought +- (whatever was the cheapest) if you know what I mean. And thank you for the information on the brand of bearings and rails. Sounds like if I need replacement parts I'm going to have to go with a different brand.



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    So Gary, what about the folks who got a good machine?

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    The tolerance of 4130 flat bar is +- 0.006 from the mill.
    That's most likely for thickness, or width, not straightness.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    So Gary, what about the folks who got a good machine?
    I for one like my machine and after a lot of hard work getting it dialed in it works great. My only concern after seeing a recent post of bearings failing after minimal use is fixing the issue I know exists. I still have a gap between the gantry plate and the bearing blocks that I'm not thrilled with.

    I have no desire to have a expensive labor intensive problem after a couple hundred hours of service if I can avoid it. I'm still waiting to see if Finline is ever going to address this issue now that they are aware that it wasn't just one or two machines. Every single one that has been posted since I received my machine has had all the same problems. I'm not looking for perfection, just advertised specs for the machine I purchased.



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    I hear you and wonder what the timeline is or was for the bad machines? Its going to be interesting to see how this all works out. It would be nice if Nate acknowledged the issues and said, "Hey hold on I am working on a fix" and given his track record in the past, I think he will make things right.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    That's most likely for thickness, or width, not straightness.
    It is but that material is very straight, especially such a short length as long as it didn't get tweaked in transport.



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I hear you and wonder what the timeline is or was for the bad machines? Its going to be interesting to see how this all works out. It would be nice if Nate acknowledged the issues and said, "Hey hold on I am working on a fix" and given his track record in the past, I think he will make things right.
    Agreed since I know he's aware of the problem. I can't imagine that he's going to just ignore it and hope it's not a issue going forward. I don't know though how many of these machines are in service outside of the half dozen or so that are on the forum. I do know that even if there were 50 of them the 4 I believe that are having the same problems isn't a very good percentage. If my calculations are correct that would be....$@#!%... I think close 10% of them with the same issue. That was me making light of the situation with bad humor, I know that my delivery was a bit off lol. Who knows maybe he's sold 1000000000 of them and then it's not bad at all. Only Finline knows what's going on and they've gone silent apparently.



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    So Gary, what about the folks who got a good machine?



    They are lucky and happy.




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    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post



    They are lucky and happy.
    I hope the heck they are Warm and Happy got more snow coming in tomorrow ?And this was the year we decided to skip the month in Florida



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I hope the heck they are Warm and Happy got more snow coming in tomorrow ?And this was the year we decided to skip the month in Florida

    Warm and Happy,

    We just got 7 or 8 inches of snow here in western Washington, which is a rare event around here. Most years, we don't see any, or very little snow. On the downside, anything more than flurries is darned near paralyzing. Our temperatures rarely get much below freezing, even at night. Downside: It rains frequently (but not a lot at a time), except during summers, which are glorious. Low humidity (except at the coast) and temperatures generally below 75 degrees. We have a heat pump, but most folks in the area don't bother with A/C. It's cooler at the coast.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I hear you and wonder what the timeline is or was for the bad machines? Its going to be interesting to see how this all works out. It would be nice if Nate acknowledged the issues and said, "Hey hold on I am working on a fix" and given his track record in the past, I think he will make things right.


    I wish I could be as optimistic. A lot of folks like Nate, but his past track record doesn't look all that good to me. From the best I can tell, his customer service, which has always rotten, has gotten worse since he changed jobs.

    Rant follows:

    I was pleased that "he did the right thing" on my Saturn, but that turned out to be a no brainer. Go to his website, look at the bottom of the page, and find "Returns." Under Returns, you will find FLA's 60-day Money Back Customer Satisfaction Guarantee.
    Note: FLA does not warrant the product. FLAguarantees the customer's satisfaction. Big difference. I don't know about you, but the first place I always look for any kind of warranty or guarantee information is on the "Returns" page. (Read that as being facetious). I suppose he offered it when he did, because at the time, it was a low risk (cost) proposition. It may still be a relatively low risk offer. Of those we know about who have had problems, I appear to be the only one to send the machine back. Others grouse, but at the end of the day, they live with it. That said, I'd be surprised if there weren't others who sent their machines back, and we just don't know about them. I hope so, for their sake. If I hadn't been seeking answers on building my control box, and setting up my VFD, I doubt I would have found the Zone and the FLA sub forum. I'm guessing that the majority of buyers have no idea we are here.

    Nate has a big PR issue going on now. It centers not only on the defects in the machines, but his (1) knowing about at least some of the defects, and (2) sending out machines to customers knowing they were defective. If you go back to the customer satisfaction guarantee, Nate represents that "We guarantee that all merchandise is tested and usable when shipped . . . ." If he really tested anything, he knew everything. Surely he knew he couldn't just bolt on some linear rails and they would be good to go. If he didn't, he has no business selling machines that use them. Also, when he put thick washers under the gantry mounts, he knew something was very wrong. Nevertheless, he went forward with shipping the machine. What does that tell you about doing the right thing? It tells me everything I need to know.

    For Leon and Dan: I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for FLA to make things right.

    Rant concluded




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Oh Hmmm and it goes on and on.... A reminder Gary, you did get a refund did you not? Why would not others get the same fair treatment?

    FYI I came to the Zone because of a post on his website. It was not hidden in any way. You are posting speculation, some business owners would sue and have sued and won lawsuits where such online postings were proven to be not true.

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    Last edited by wmgeorge; 02-10-2019 at 12:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Oh Hmmm and it goes on and on.... A reminder Gary, you did get a refund did you not? Why would not others get the same more than fair treatment?


    Yup, I got a refund. I alluded to it in the post you just responded to, so reminders not required. I also pointed out that there is a published customer service guarantee, so the refund was baked in. Am I happy about it? You bet. But, if getting a refund based upon a published guarantee providing for it was more than fair, every other warranty/guarantee out there is also more than fair. Maybe we have different perspectives on the subject. That said, kudos to FLA for not making us fight to get what was promised.

    What to do when folks want to keep their defective machines, or go beyond the 60-day guarantee period? That's up to FLA and them. While we all may have opinions about it, it's really not our concern. However, I'm sure prospective purchasers will have an interest in the history and outcomes.
    Like you, I hope everything works out to the satisfaction of all.






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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Here's a pretty good video showing how to use epoxy to get a level surface.



    Gerry

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    That's a pretty nice looking DIY CNC!

    David

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Here's a pretty good video showing how to use epoxy to get a level surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by difalkner View Post
    That's a pretty nice looking DIY CNC!

    David
    Thank you, Gerry. If this isn't the best video on the subject, it's darned close to it.

    +1, David. This is about the stoutest looking extrusion-based machine I've seen. I believe he did his own aluminum milling. The machine he's building in the video isn't his first. He used a previously built CNC router to do most, if not all, of the milling.

    The link to this fellow's 24 episode build series follows: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9E...F_LkiyQ/videos

    I suggest looking at Episodes 15, 16 & 17. They go through the epoxy leveling process for what he refers to as the X axis, but what many of us think of as the Y axis. More importantly, they show what can go wrong. The first attempt was a fail. He had to chip off the epoxy and do it over.

    For anyone thinking of going down this road, there are a few things to consider. 1. The larger the machine, the more bridges you'll need. For a 4 X 4 machine, you'll need at least 3 bridges, front, middle and back. 2. West System epoxy may not be the best choice for a project such as this. West System products are among the very best. However, there are some formulations designed specifically for this sort of work. 3. Warming the epoxy will lower the viscosity and help it self level, but heat also makes epoxy kick off more quickly. Longer working times are generally preferred. 4. Epoxy is exothermic, meaning it gives off heat. If you mix too much at once, the container can get too hot to hold. I've seen it hot enough to smoke. You need to learn all you can about epoxy before starting a big project, like making a level pad for linear rails.

    Gary




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