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Thread: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    That would work great. Good idea for not over complicating it, you could even use flatbar if you wanted to.

    Good idea
    I agree, but I just went out to my shop and turned the heat up and lights on to look at mine. My square tubing does Not have open ends as I thought so it would need to be opened up as Crash suggested. Its typical square tubing and it does have a seam, but the sides are not dished enough to make a big difference. I could get a .006 feeler gage under the middle when a Starrett machinist square used for reference. It could be the powder coating also. As long as the linear rails are parallel and the bearings don't bind that's really all you need. The rest can be setup correctly.

    If you insist on making a large milling machine capable of .001 work then you will never be happy. As long as you have adjustment, the frame does not need to be 100% perfect, you can make it work.

    Frankly it might be easier to do it my way as the plates can all be made in a machine shop and then installed directly on the top square tube. But Crashes way may be faster and get the job done.

    The poster who said send it back has no idea of the size of this machine and the difficulty getting a very large double pallet and packing it up. Where else are you going to get a welded steel frame machine at this price point? Especially when the fix is so easy?

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I agree, but I just went out to my shop and turned the heat up and lights on to look at mine. My square tubing does Not have open ends as I thought so it would need to be opened up as Crash suggested. Its typical square tubing and it does have a seam, but the sides are not dished enough to make a big difference. I could get a .006 feeler gage under the middle when a Starrett machinist square used for reference. It could be the powder coating also. As long as the linear rails are parallel and the bearings don't bind that's really all you need. The rest can be setup correctly.

    If you insist on making a large milling machine capable of .001 work then you will never be happy. As long as you have adjustment, the frame does not need to be 100% perfect, you can make it work.

    Frankly it might be easier to do it my way as the plates can all be made in a machine shop and then installed directly on the top square tube. But Crashes way may be faster and get the job done.

    The poster who said send it back has no idea of the size of this machine and the difficulty getting a very large double pallet and packing it up. Where else are you going to get a welded steel frame machine at this price point? Especially when the fix is so easy?
    Yeah you're way will also insure flatness as well since it would be easy to shim out and level up the flat bar and have it machined prior to install. I do agree that you shouldn't have to do all of this, but as the old saying goes you get what you pay for. At some point people need to realize as I have there's a reason similar machines cost as much as they do. Overall I'm extremely happy with my machine now that it seems to be reliable. I still think that even with the work you have to put in to get it right it's still worth it considering a Cam Master of a similar size to mine is 2x the cost including all my electronics. And at the end of the day I have a much better controller than the Cam Master comes with.

    Dan



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Fair enough. I know what you mean about inconvenience and return hassels/shipping etc after having had similar issues :-)

    WRT the "racking", did you follow some alignment procedure when squaring the gantry? What you describe may be misalignment of the R+P meshing if the gantry does move smoothly from end to end with no R+P's engaged.

    IE: As mentioned by others, there should be one reference edge used (the master rail), use this to provide the squareness measure for perpendicular for the gantry X axis and set the other side using this. Initially do this with the R+P's disengaged, test for smooth travel and squareness. If this is square, engage power and mesh the R+P's snugly starting on the master rail side. If the slave side does not mesh easily, remove power (turn off, not unplug motor!), rotate the slave motor a bit and repeat.

    What I found easy to start with was to manually draw equilateral triangles within a square on a piece of MDF from the master rail to get perpendicular lines from the master to slave rail sides, align the gantry (spindle point) to that then engage the R+P's. Example, a 1000 mm square will have 1414.214 mm diagonals. Start on master side, move spindle to slave side and align to drawn line.

    If this is now square to the master rail, when tightened down, test the movement again and feel if there is any binding. With no R+P engaged should be smooth with the same forces needed from end to end, under power listen to the motor sounds and it should be pretty much a constant pitch.



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Actually now thinking it over, I think either way would work

    . All good points made here... a lot of thinking for a Monday!! Too darn cold here, and I need to get back to my projects, a Bear in a Log and 48 inch long walnut live edge slab engraved with a Cabin and Lake scene.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    I feel your pain sir! lol It's about -25 Celsius outside here now!



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Wow, we're heading for about +33C today!



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    -10°F on my way to work this morning.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Pretty cool day here 60°F today supposed to be 73°F by the end of the week. I don't know how you guys deal with the cold. But you guys probably say the same thing when it's 110°F out here during the summer.



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Yes Gerry I am married to a Michiganite lady. We make trips up there a couple times a year so I know how it is!!

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Leon,

    I forgot that the ends of the tubing were welded shut with a plate. Just curious, but how would you open up the ends? And once opened, and the remediation completed, would you weld them shut again with a new plate?

    I am also still curious about things like I found on my Saturn. Have you checked the frame tubing for square and plumb? Does the gantry sit flat on the interface plates, or is it stressed flat with the bolts? My left side came with shims, but the right side didn't. When the bolts were tight, the gantry was tight against the interface plate on the right. However, when the gantry was removed and a straight edge placed across the interface plates, there was .034" gap at the right side, inside edge. (The left side was much worse). The frame wasn't welded square. So having bolts in place and tightened is not informative. Why is this so important? Uncorrected angled interface plates will significantly affect the wear to the bearing blocks and linear rails, can cause binding, and can ultimately lead to total bearing block failure. Bottom line: you could fix one thing, but find that the initial problem remains. Better to rule out all of the potential problems up front, which also rules out nasty surprises downstream. Just my $0.02.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Gary IMHO your machine was a disaster and never should have left the plant. There is no excuse for what you got as a machine. But what we are trying to solve here is some practical alinement issues that can done, not send the machine back.

    There are literally thousands or perhaps 100s of thousands of CNC router machines out working everyday that are not needed to cut to +/- .001 inch. Cabinet makers and furniture makers do not need, as wood expands and contacts with humility and temperature, its just not practical to hold that tolerance.

    You certainly can do that with your hand built and tuned machine and I have no doubt you can and will do so.

    Opening up the ends. All you need is a hole large enough to get a flat bar, say 1.5 inches wide by .5 thick. You can cut that with a Sawzall or good heavy duty jigsaw with a metal cutting blade.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Being in Canada adds another level of complexity to returning it. Maybe see if Nate will send you a new frame where you can just transfer the components and scrap the old frame?

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    A couple of replies here for Gary. Yes there are washer/shims on mine. I only ever loosened them once just a bit when initially trying for squarness on the gantry. As for getting the rail tube ends open, well I'm open to suggestions on that one ... lol. Obviously I would like this machine to have all the accuracy that can be had, but I do not require 0.001". This will be primarily a woodworking machine; acrylic and thin aluminum if I'm feeling bold.

    All that being said, I have yet to take any hard accurate measurements for rail alignment and other things. I ran out of time when making these discoveries. I won't have more time until probably closer to the weekend. I have a friend who could loan me a straight edge, also the same friend who I'd probably go to about the threaded bars as he owns a machine shop. When I have some hard numbers and photos to back them up, I will then contact Nate and see what he says. Obviously I will post the same info here and see what you guys think.



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Gary IMHO your machine was a disaster and never should have left the plant. There is no excuse for what you got as a machine. But what we are trying to solve here is some practical alinement issues that can done, not send the machine back.

    There are literally thousands or perhaps 100s of thousands of CNC router machines out working everyday that are not needed to cut to +/- .001 inch. Cabinet makers and furniture makers do not need, as wood expands and contacts with humility and temperature, its just not practical to hold that tolerance.

    You certainly can do that with your hand built and tuned machine and I have no doubt you can and will do so.

    Opening up the ends. All you need is a hole large enough to get a flat bar, say 1.5 inches wide by .5 thick. You can cut that with a Sawzall or good heavy duty jigsaw with a metal cutting blade.


    Bill,

    I think you may have misunderstood my posts. At first, I advocated returning the machine, but once Leon introduced the added layer of complexity, I went with it. My questions were intended to help Leon to get where he wants to be without making one fix, only to find out there was another significant problem that had to be taken care of. We've had the discussion on accuracy in other threads, and I agree with you. Depends on what you want to do with the machine. As you say, typical woodworkers probably don't need to dial their machines into .001". If you look at my posts in this thread, you will see that I didn't suggest that Leon's machine need to be dialed down to a gnat's ear. My questions and comments were intended to help Leon assess whether his machine is also a "disaster", or whether there is a reasonable path to get his machine to a point where he is satisfied.

    If you look at Leon's last post, his machine also had washers between the gantry and interface plate. Big red flag. On mine, the washers were pretty thick, and even then, were not thick enough. Also, on the right side there was no shimming of any kind, but there should have been. If Leon has the same problem, tightening the mounting bolts will stress the linear rail bearing blocks and cause binding, excess wear and/or maybe even bearing failure. Jack's fix was to use shims to eliminate the stress. It worked for him and I believe he is satisfied with the fix. On mine, the frame was welded such that the frame rails were rotated inward. Could be the same on Leon's machine (rotated inward or outward), or it could be that the problem is with the welded-on mounting plates under the gantry being badly warped, or just plain welded out of alignment. I believe one of those variations was the problem Dan (NTL) had. The solution for Dan was to change over to an extrusion gantry. I believe he has expressed his satisfaction with the fix. Could be the same for Leon. Anyway, we don't want Leon to think that aligning the linear rails will necessary be a complete solution to his problem. Although I hoped that realigning the rails would be the total solution, I doubted that it would. Now that we now know the gantry was shimmed, my concerns are vindicated. We can reasonably conclude that there will be more to the fix. What "more" is yet to be determined.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Was the gantry shimmed to level it or keep the frame aligned with the bearings? That's the question. If its not level and not parallel then my plates might solve the problem as they could be shimmed up as needed.

    Gary I have a great deal of respect for your talents, I am sure your designed and constructed machine will be perfect. I hope you post some pictures so we can all learn.

    Headed back to the shop, I hate running the heat but I hate sitting in the house looking out at the snowbanks even more!

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Was the gantry shimmed to level it or keep the frame aligned with the bearings? That's the question. If its not level and not parallel then my plates might solve the problem as they could be shimmed up as needed.

    Gary I have a great deal of respect for your talents, I am sure your designed and constructed machine will be perfect. I hope you post some pictures so we can all learn.

    Headed back to the shop, I hate running the heat but I hate sitting in the house looking out at the snowbanks even more!
    Leon,

    Possibilities:

    1. The frame tubing was welded at an angle. That is what I experienced. In this case, the frame rails are tilted, which means the linear rails are also tilted. Assuming the gantry mounting plates (the plates mounted to the underside of the gantry) are flat and parallel to the gantry, the rotation angle would cause a gap between the gantry plate and the interface plate. If the frame was rotated toward the inside, the gap would also be on the inside. The washers/shims would be used to close the gap. Absent the shims, when you tighten the gantry bolts, the tightening force will cause the interface plate to pull upward, putting the bearing blocks under significant stress. The shims need to be equal to the gap, so when the bolts are tightened, the tightening force is neutral with respect to the linear bearings. Does this ensure that the gantry will be level? No.

    Assume one side of the frame was welded higher on one side than the other, and the frame was also welded at an inward angle. If you put a straight across the interface plates, it touches at the outer edges, and has a gap at the inside edges. You could use shims to close the gap to prevent the bearing from binding, but you would still have a gantry that isn't level. It may or may not be parallel to the cross pieces (spoilboard), depending upon how accurately they were welded. You could probably get parallelism with the spoilboard when surfacing it, but getting the linear rails mounted correctly becomes more difficult. You are starting off with angled rails, and one side may be angled more than the other (my situation). You also don't know whether any disrelationships are entirely consistent from front to back. I didn't get that far when I measured. With a plate on top, you have a shot at getting a good straight line. With a plate on the inside, I see a much time of it.

    If memory serves, it's a bad idea to rely on shims alone, when installing linear rails. You end up with gaps between the mounting bolts, and that will affect accuracy. Remember, the gantry is pretty heavy and the rails will flex. I've heard of shimming the rails, but those who have done it use some sort of grout or epoxy to fill the gaps. I believe they inject it. Some have solved the whole angle/ misalignment issue by using epoxy to create a level, coplaner surface. You have to box in the rails, create bridges between the two side and works fast while the epoxy is still flowing. It's a big job. expensive, and pretty hit and miss as far as success. I considered and rejected the idea pretty quickly. Likewise, shimming a plate mounted on top is problematic. Shims alone are also going leave gaps. I suppose, if you use a thick enough plate, and you put the shims close enough together, it may work. For aluminum, I wouldn't go thinner than 1/2" and would probably opt for 3/4" to 1". I don't have a good sense for steel.

    As far as I'm concerned, this is a nightmare scenario.

    2. The frame was welded fine, but the welded mounting plates on the gantry are way out of whack. This too can open up gaps that need to be filled with shims. Same issue with stress on the bearing blocks. This would be another situation where epoxy injection might be beneficial. This is probably your best case scenario.

    3. The two Y axis frame tubes are level, but one is higher than the other. In this case, you will have gaps on both interface plates. One will be on the inside of the plate, and one on the outside. Same issue with shimming to prevent bearing stress, but the low side would get all the shims. This is the alternative to shimming the linear rails, or new mounting plate. You shim between the interface plate and gantry mounting plate to make up for any discrepancy.

    If I were trying to fix a machine that wasn't coplaner, I believe I would go with the top mount plate, and shim between the plate and frame. I might be inclined to use something like grub screws to help get it level and coplaner. Turning a screw is much easier than trying to slide shims in and out. This is very fiddly option and you could find yourself chasing adjustments for days and never get it quite where you want it. Easy to create a wavy surface. Been there, done that in another setting. Anyway, I would then inject epoxy under the plate to fill the gaps, or make a dam and fill spots and pour the epoxy in. Understand, I would never really do it. If I didn't have the option of returning my Saturn, I would have pulled everything off the frame and gantry and sold the rest for scrap. I know that I would never have gotten it right and would have never used it.

    Bottom line: IMHO opinion, before thinking much more about making plates to realign the linear rails, you should more fully assess what you have and what needs to be corrected. I hate to say it, but pulling the gantry will probably be necessary to fully understand what you have. An ugly task, but if you are contemplating fixing the linear rails, it's going to have to come off anyway. Sooner is probably better than later.

    I hope your machine is a better candidate for rehap than mine. I get it about the difficulty taking it back. What's more, where would you go from there? I still remember. It's a stomach churner.

    Oh, one other thing. I designed a top plate arrangement for the linear rails. It's done in Fusion 360. It doesn't include grub screws, but they could easily be added. If you're interested, I'm happy to share. I have no need of it. Let me know.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Oops. Something else just occurred to me. If you use a top plate for your rails, you're going to have a problem with your stepper drives. A top plate will raise raise everything but the gear racks. So, the angle of the drives will become more vertical. They may work okay; maybe not. A lot of time and expense for something that may be doomed to fail. Sorry about that. I missed an important piece of it.

    I guess it's probably an internal plate or nothing. I fear that injecting epoxy under the linear rails to fill gaps, assuming that become necessary, would be a tough business. They would have to be well masked. Getting epoxy on them would be terrible. One other thing. You wouldn't use garden variety epoxy. There are special no sag epoxies designed for this sort of work. If memory serves, I looked one of the Hysol variations. I believe it may have been Hysol 9460, which is applied with a mixing gun. The mixers aren't too expensive. You can find it on amazon.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by he1957 View Post
    Fair enough. I know what you mean about inconvenience and return hassels/shipping etc after having had similar issues :-)

    WRT the "racking", did you follow some alignment procedure when squaring the gantry? What you describe may be misalignment of the R+P meshing if the gantry does move smoothly from end to end with no R+P's engaged.

    IE: As mentioned by others, there should be one reference edge used (the master rail), use this to provide the squareness measure for perpendicular for the gantry X axis and set the other side using this. Initially do this with the R+P's disengaged, test for smooth travel and squareness. If this is square, engage power and mesh the R+P's snugly starting on the master rail side. If the slave side does not mesh easily, remove power (turn off, not unplug motor!), rotate the slave motor a bit and repeat.

    What I found easy to start with was to manually draw equilateral triangles within a square on a piece of MDF from the master rail to get perpendicular lines from the master to slave rail sides, align the gantry (spindle point) to that then engage the R+P's. Example, a 1000 mm square will have 1414.214 mm diagonals. Start on master side, move spindle to slave side and align to drawn line.

    If this is now square to the master rail, when tightened down, test the movement again and feel if there is any binding. With no R+P engaged should be smooth with the same forces needed from end to end, under power listen to the motor sounds and it should be pretty much a constant pitch.
    I like the triangle idea, I had a question for you. Do you have any pictures of it in action? A video would be even better.

    Thanks,

    Dan



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Gary the 3/8 mounting plate not the rail would be shimmed. The gear drives are mounted on a swivel, 3/8 inch would not be an issue. Gantry weight is 200 lbs or 100 on each rail.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Gary the 3/8 mounting plate not the rail would be shimmed. The gear drives are mounted on a swivel, 3/8 inch would not be an issue. Gantry weight is 200 lbs or 100 on each rail.
    Bill,

    Yes, I see Leon was referring to shimming the plates. Thank you for calling it to my attention. I misread what he wrote. 3/8" thick seems pretty thin to me. I still have my Fusion 360 file from when I mocked up an addon plate for the Saturn. I drew it up as 3/4" thick. For Leon's sake, I hope it's the gantry mounts that are off. Otherwise, he has the same general problems I had. I don't have a sense of how far out things are, except for parallelism of the linear rails. Time will tell.

    Gary




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Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada

Saturn 2 4x4 w/ Nema34 closed-loop - In Canada