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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    I think Nate should step up and start working on the fix since we're not getting paid to re-engineer his design.

    Dan
    I think I know what you meant to say, but I'm not sure you said what you really meant. I don't think there is much wrong with the design itself. Rather, much, if not most, of the problem is with the execution. Nate advertises jig welding, but if mine was welded in a jig, it looks like the jig was shot. Also, using substandard materials (e.g., out-of-square tubing) is an execution problem. Putting aside all of the discussion about how the frame rails should have been milled or ground (it wan't advertised as having milled or ground surfaces) the machine was simply put together poorly. wmgeorge probably had it right when he observed that Chinese manufactures sometimes start off with a quality product, and then later drop any semblance quality and turn out crap. (wmgeorge was maybe a little more generous than the way I characterized his comments, but I believe I'm speaking to the spirit of what he was saying. If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance). Certainly looks like what happened here. However, FLA is not absolved. It's hard to justify passing on the problems to the consumer. If he didn't notice, he certainly should have. And, there is the issue of installing the linear rails so far out of parallel. I believe FLA installs them. My case re: the linear rails could have been an aberration - mistakes happen - but at least one other reported that his is way out of spec too.

    Sometimes I wish it were otherwise, but I'm wired to look for problems and find fixes or solutions. It's often hard to reach a point where I'm willing to say, 'okay, it's time to stop.' My whole work life involved problem identification and solving. Intellectually, I know that its time to stop and go in another direction, but emotionally, I'm having a tough time stopping. I keep looking for a fix to something that shouldn't need fixing. Oh well . . . . I guess I just keep on keeping on.

    Gary


    Last edited by difalkner; 11-08-2018 at 06:00 PM. Reason: fixed quote


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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Frankly the fix I suggested, just remove the linear rails and remount on some 3/8 x 21/2 inch wide or so Cold Rolled flat would involve no welding, just milled slots every 12 inches or so for mounting the flat. I would mount the flat with 1/4-20 socket head screws. Allen screws as button head with a wide surface. Any machine shop and I bet Dan has a milling machine in his, could do it for not a lot of money. A day drilling and tapping holes and another shimming and adjustment of the flat with the linear rail on top. I have a ton of #7 drills and two flute taps and I use as my go to mounting fasteners.

    Getting the rails parallel and then shimmed level should fix it. Dan and ditto what you said about engineering a fix!

    I do not see how the piano wire could insure the linear rails are parallel maybe I missed something. It would work leveling left to right.



    The piano wire would be one step in the process to get to parallel. There are different ways to get to parallel. One is to mount one rail, and mount a temporary piece across the bearing blocks that would give you a fixed width, and then mount the second rail. This is the least preferred of the various mounting methods, from what I've read. The wire would help ensure that you got the first rail on in a perfectly straight line. The preferred method is to reference the rails against a milled edge.

    Of course, the piano wire could be used to reference for straightness, flatness and probably other things I haven't considered.

    I haven't mentioned it before, but linear rails/bearing blocks have a slightly looser height tolerance (level) that for parallel. One spec I looked at indicated for 30mm rails the permissible level deviation was almost.0067". That's a lot looser than .0015" or so, it's all relative. .0067" is still a pretty small measurement.

    Anyway, the idea of using a plate that wasn't milled, and was shimmed, would still need to meet a .0067" tolerance standard. Something to think about. This is probably why some favor milling and be done with it. The other sorts of fixes all have the potential of introducing a new problem. Feels kind of like beating one's head against the wall. Maybe, all this is why the CNC Router Parts 80/20 pro kits are so popular. They too use linear rails. The pieces can be cut accurately. The extrusions are manufactured to very close tolerances. The downside is you lose rigidity. Many, if not most, of us were attracted to the Saturn 2's promise of rigidity, not to mention jig welding, stress relief, etc.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Here's a stupid little question that has been bugging me. How do you remove the plugs from the linear rails? Do you drill a hole in the middle, put in screws, and use a slide hammer to force them out? I haven't been about to think of a better way. From what I've read, they get tapped in with a mallet, so I doubt they are going to come out easily.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    Here's a stupid little question that has been bugging me. How do you remove the plugs from the linear rails? Do you drill a hole in the middle, put in screws, and use a slide hammer to force them out? I haven't been about to think of a better way. From what I've read, they get tapped in with a mallet, so I doubt they are going to come out easily.

    Gary
    My Y does not have the Green caps, the Z does and if I wasn't so tired I go look at the X rails. Spent 1/2 day looking for parts I knew I had, blamed the dog, my wife and finally found where I Had Put Them!

    After suggesting the flat plate under the rails above, If I was me I would return the machine. Whatever YOU do is there a 100% sure thing fix? And its a Lot of work. I did get a price on a 4x4 Camaster and it would have been 14k to my door. I would look at the CNCRouter Parts machines. They mount the Linear Rail on the side like perhaps Camaster does. That gives you adjustment for leveling and truing. I believe the gear rack is mounted below.

    Last edited by wmgeorge; 11-08-2018 at 05:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    My Y does not have the Green caps, the Z does and if I wasn't so tired I go look at the X rails. Spent 1/2 day looking for parts I knew I had, blamed the dog, my wife and finally found where I Had Put Them!

    After suggesting the flat plate under the rails above, If I was me I would return the machine. Whatever YOU do is there a 100% sure thing fix? And its a Lot of work. I did get a price on a 4x4 Camaster and it would have been 14k to my door. I would look at the CNCRouter Parts machines. They mount the Linear Rail on the side like perhaps Camaster does. That gives you adjustment for leveling and truing. I believe the gear rack is mounted below.

    I hear you about returning the machine. I first want to connect with Nate before doing anything else. I'm also reluctant to incur the expense totally in the blind. Also, at this point, I don't plan to try to fix this machine. Too much wrong with it. Too much time and expense to try, and I may not be happy with it by the time I reach the end. I do plan to continue measuring to document what okay and what's not. My precision straight edge will arrive on Saturday. That will help with some of my measurements.

    As far as moving the gantry is concerned, before I loosened the gantry mounting bolts, I had to put my back into it to move it After loosening the bolts, it was better, but still took some effort, and no chance of coasting. I attribute that to the misalignment of the linear rails. They had to be binding in each direction. When I stopped shoving, the gantry stopped moving.

    Here's a question for you. How would you go about putting straps around the ox box? I don't have a strapping machine or access to one. Maybe try to get the shipper to do it?

    I'm also worried about getting the machine back to my driveway. No problem getting to my shop, but I was driving down a hill. To return it, I have to drive up the hill. Traction is probably going to be a problem. Unfortunately, trees prevent me from getting my tow vehicle (or any vehicle) down to it. I may be able to work it out, if I buy some tow chains, but that's just more expense against an unknown outcome. I guess I could just take my plasma torch to it, and return it in pieces.


    Gary



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    For the earlier question about the plugs; yes, they are tapped into place and probably difficult to remove without tearing them up. Since we got the prototype Saturn there were many things that Nate forgot and so we got packages for a few weeks after the machine arrived. One of those packages was the plugs except ours are black. When I tapped them into place I knew they weren't coming out on their own and likely wouldn't go back in if I did succeed in getting them out whole.

    David

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Here's a stupid little question that has been bugging me. How do you remove the plugs from the linear rails? Do you drill a hole in the middle, put in screws, and use a slide hammer to force them out? I haven't been about to think of a better way. From what I've read, they get tapped in with a mallet, so I doubt they are going to come out easily.
    They are only about 1/32" thick (or less) Try something sharp like an awl near the edge. If they get damaged a little, you can probably clean the up with a chisel after re-installing them.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by difalkner View Post
    For the earlier question about the plugs; yes, they are tapped into place and probably difficult to remove without tearing them up. Since we got the prototype Saturn there were many things that Nate forgot and so we got packages for a few weeks after the machine arrived. One of those packages was the plugs except ours are black. When I tapped them into place I knew they weren't coming out on their own and likely wouldn't go back in if I did succeed in getting them out whole.

    David

    Thanks, David. My machine came with the plugs already inserted. Mine are black too. You confirmed what I suspected. They are not coming out intact, and won't be reusable. I'm not planning to take them out anyway, so it's an academic question at this point. I appreciate your weighing in.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    They are only about 1/32" thick (or less) Try something sharp like an awl near the edge. If they get damaged a little, you can probably clean the up with a chisel after re-installing them.
    I thought they were thicker. Good suggestion. Thanks, Gerry.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Well I went out and removed one of the mounting Allen bolts. I perhaps need to post a couple of pictures but there appears to be some slop in the holes. The bolt is 7.83 mm dia and the hole is 9.02 mm. I am not sure if shifting the rail over would hold because the hole has a V or counter sink slight taper at the top. Mine is fine so I hate to mess with it. Pictures. Gee I wish I would have wiped it off better.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine-img_3362-jpg   Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine-img_3364-jpg  
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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Well I went out and removed one of the mounting Allen bolts. I perhaps need to post a couple of pictures but there appears to be some slop in the holes. The bolt is 7.83 mm dia and the hole is 9.02 mm. I am not sure if shifting the rail over would hold because the hole has a V or counter sink slight taper at the top. Mine is fine so I hate to mess with it. Pictures. Gee I wish I would have wiped it off better.
    DON'T MESS WITH IT!!!!!! I'm sure everyone appreciates the effort. I know I do, but no sense in putting anything to do with your machine at risk. Apparently, you got one of the good ones. I urge you to keep it that way.

    Interesting about the countersink/taper to the hole. I understand why it's there, but it didn't occur to me that it would be. The dimensions you provided seem consistent with what I read about on other rails. A slightly oversized hole, and little room for adjustment (assuming the mounting surface was flat). Now knowing about the taper, I doubt that any side-to-side adjustment would be possible. Apparently, you get the bolt holes lined up correctly the first time, or you're screwed. (pun intended).


    Gary



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    The taper is more consistent with just being the taper at the bottom of a drilled hole from the drill cutting surface angle. My guess it could just be made flat with a milling cutter or reamer in a few seconds.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    All of the rails I've seen specs for have a hole 1mm larger than the bolt size. So if the holes are drilled perfectly, you have 0.5mm adjustment.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Ok a little research on using piano wire for alignment Link http://fwrc.msstate.edu/southernsaw/alignment1.pdf
    not ready the method posted above by Mactec, and this has the details correct. It appears the taut wire method has been used for a long time, and still is.

    Over on Practical Machnist there is a Table published on sag in piano wire .016 dia over a distance tensioned wirh a 30 lb weight. Also a very detailed discussion on leveling and alignment.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    All of the rails I've seen specs for have a hole 1mm larger than the bolt size. So if the holes are drilled perfectly, you have 0.5mm adjustment.
    And .5 on each side might get Jack the 1 mm he needed.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Ok a little research on using piano wire for alignment Link http://fwrc.msstate.edu/southernsaw/alignment1.pdf
    not ready the method posted above by Mactec, and this has the details correct. It appears the taut wire method has been used for a long time, and still is.

    Over on Practical Machnist there is a Table published on sag in piano wire .016 dia over a distance tensioned wirh a 30 lb weight. Also a very detailed discussion on leveling and alignment.


    I just did a quick scan of the document. While it looks like it might be very interesting, I don't understand most of the terms used. I might pick some up upon close reading, but it will take a lot of research to figure out much of what the article describes. What I did catch, and found pretty cool was the electronic sensing head on page 6. However, it will take some thought to figure out its practical application. I hope I never need to use most of the stuff covered. Still, you don't always appreciate a technique until you encounter a situation where you need it.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    And .5 on each side might get Jack the 1 mm he needed.

    Yes, if the holes are up against the bolts on the correct sides. Could be a total of 1mm of adjustability; could be zero. Also, have to remember that there a number of holes along the rail for it to work. If you have a bolt against one side of the hole and the next bolt against the opposite side, that's the ballgame. Zero adjustment. My fingers are crossed for Jack, if he chooses to try to make the adjustment. Worst cases, the misalignment is as good as it's going to get. Best cases, he is able to remove 1mm of misalignment. Could be a nail biter.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    One technique I have heard of for getting the rails parallel is to adjust one rail to the other. You snug down one rail then start snugging the other one down starting at one end. You move the gantry to one end and snug the loose rail bolt by bolt as you move the gantry ahead of it. Alternately, snug down both rails at the same time as you move the gantry from one end to the other. LOTS of assumptions in this method (like you bearing blocks are parallel on both rails, the mounting holes need to be accurately machined, the mounting surfaces should be co-planar, etc. etc. etc.) Machining alignment steps into the mounting surface using the same machining setup is really the best way to get the rails parallel. But it comes at a cost.



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Ok a little research on using piano wire for alignment Link http://fwrc.msstate.edu/southernsaw/alignment1.pdf
    not ready the method posted above by Mactec, and this has the details correct. It appears the taut wire method has been used for a long time, and still is.

    Over on Practical Machnist there is a Table published on sag in piano wire .016 dia over a distance tensioned wirh a 30 lb weight. Also a very detailed discussion on leveling and alignment.
    Keep looking that is not even close to being a good example of how to use the piano wire, the stainless steel wire is to soft there is no sage if it is correctly tensioned, a 30lbs weight is no where near enough I have check the method with a laser and it can be just as accurate as a very expensive laser you need at least 100 to 150lbs of tension on the wire depending on how long it is which is easy to do

    Piano wire is high tensile spring steel wire any other type of wire would not work

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    The information found on Practical Machinist and referenced above and also the link above are published by experts in the field, not just some guy on the internet.

    Gary this is of course what your really need cost is no object right? > https://pinpointlaser.com/products/a...nt-gantry-kit/


    The published Chart using the 30 lb weight and .016 stainless steel piano wire is here and its from an Expert source > Tight Wire Sag Chart - 1


    And another Expert source > https://www.cnczone.com/v...45/index2.html

    Last edited by wmgeorge; 11-09-2018 at 07:59 AM.
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