Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

[PLJack]

Interesting stuff guys. Thanks.
I've measured mine again since my last post. Comes in a 1.1mm.
I grabbed the first PDF I saw on google to see what the anatomy of these rails are. Does not look like a lot of wiggle room for adjustment if I were to loosen the rails.
Partial catalogue LSK Linear Guides - isel - PDF Catalogue | Technical Documentation | Brochure
Page 6 specifically.


Jack.

[GME]

I don’t know how you would machine a finished 4x4 or 4x8 welded frame. Interesting to look at for example the Camaster Stinger or other major brand router how are they made? The Stinger III is welded but says the gantry rides on 25 mm rails and bearings that are not mounted on the top of the welded tube. My guess its all adjustable and does not rely on the welded square tube being a 100% true.

Interesting that the rails are on the underneath side. Hard to tell how it's put together. As far as machining, I've done some hunting here in Washington State where I live. So far, I have only found one place with machines large enough to do the job. They are out there. Here's a link to the company, so you see what they look like: Machining Services | Schurman Machine, Inc. The page I linked to has some photos of the machines. If you scroll down the page a little, you will see "CNC Machines" by make. If you hit the plus sign, it will tell you the capacities. Interesting stuff. Anyway, the machines are out there. I believe this is the only shop in Washington with such large machines. I've also found one shop that does stress relief. I believe there may be 2 or 3. Wouldn't you know it, they are all some distance from me. Interestingly, the machine shop and the heat treatment place are in the same general locale. Good info to have, in case I decide to (and can afford) to go that way.

Gary

[GME]

Interesting stuff guys. Thanks.
I've measured mine again since my last post. Comes in a 1.1mm.
I grabbed the first PDF I saw on google to see what the anatomy of these rails are. Does not look like a lot of wiggle room for adjustment if I were to loosen the rails.
Partial catalogue LSK Linear Guides - isel - PDF Catalogue | Technical Documentation | Brochure
Page 6 specifically.


Jack.

Yeah, Jack. Not much wiggle room. I found that out in other manufacturer's specs. Bummer. For those who don't think in metric, 1.1mm = .0433".

Gary

[wmgeorge]

Just trying to think this out. Since the rail is on top of the 80 mm square tube that limits the adjustment up and down. To do the side to side parallel the rail would need adjustment slots. So its all limited to the adjustment in the bearing block attachment points and shimming under the gantry mounting plates. But how can adjusting the bearing blocks correct the rails not being parallel or the same height end to end?

I am guessing the Camaster has a rail mounted under the table and it has adjustments up / down or right / left. The Chinese machine I had for a short time was that way and the round rail was supported at points other than just the ends. The linear bearings they used had no adjustment, only the rail.

So can the rail on the Saturn 2 be adjusted and shimmed?

[mactec54]

I don’t know how you would machine a finished 4x4 or 4x8 welded frame. Interesting to look at for example the Camaster Stinger or other major brand router how are they made? The Stinger III is welded but says the gantry rides on 25 mm rails and bearings that are not mounted on the top of the welded tube. My guess its all adjustable and does not rely on the welded square tube being a 100% true.

If you are using linear rails it all needs to have machined mounting surfaces, there is nothing about Linear Rail mounting that are adjustable, only by Machining Grinding or hand scraping

A manufacture that I know, that builds very large 5 axes machine, can machine up to 30meters 10meters is there standard double sided milling machine, they machine both sides at the same time, it is very common in the USA to find standard CNC Milling machines that can machine 8' to 12' Plus Grinder that can do this also

There is a build here on the Zone that I worked on that is 12' long and was machined for rails and racks, there mounting was within .001 over the 12' machined length, this was a hobby design and built machine which can be found here on the Zone

Here is one of the USA manufactures that build a 80" x 200" machine and there are many others as well, a snip of a Cincinnati USA built machine

BR8200IL | Milltronics USA - Let's Invent

[mactec54]

My initial impression was that the machines were made in China. The tubing is metric, and I doubt a frame and gantry like the Saturn 2's could be fabricated here for the price FLA charges. I believe FLA does lineal rail, Z-axis, sensor blocks, etc. assembly.

I knew going in that the surfaces were not machined. In fact, I recall that someone specifically asked the question on this forum and Nate answered that they weren't. So, it was known that this wasn't an industrial class machine. I believed that this machine was better than hobby class, but not industrial. Maybe commercial class.

I admire your exacting standards, and unwillingness to accept anything less. I only wish I could afford them. As with many folks out there, I make compromises that you wouldn't. Nevertheless, you bring a useful perspective to the table, and I hope you will continue to do so. Were it not for your posts, I would never have figured out the settings on my HY VFD. [/FONT][/SIZE]

I don't have, and will probably never have a 6 foot precision straight edge. The need vs cost is never going to tilt toward the purchase. I have top quality machinist squares (various sizes up to 12", and this Saturday, I am taking delivery of a 36" precision straight edge guaranteed to .0002" in 12". For me, that's as good as it gets. Wish I could afford a 6 footer, though.

I have some familiarity with the way machines were made in "the old days." I've rehab'd a few over the years. I still wonder at what folks could do back then. I've read up on scraping, and studied the technique. I'd like to try it sometime, but have never had the occasion.

You don't need to have a straight edge for an even a more accurate alignment and flatness checking

A simple small roll of piano wire ( .020 Dia or similar can be smaller dia ) and feeler gauge set is all you need, you need to make a fixed block for one end of the piano wire, and the other mounting block so you can tension the wire, both blocks are fixed mounted by bolting or clamping, they must be rigidly mounted, this is simple and can be very accurate within .001 can be achieved

When making your adjustable side for tensioning the piano wire, think of a simple tuner like on a guitar can be just a bolt to wind up the wire

[wmgeorge]

We are talking about real world practical answers to a problem in a home shop with a budget. Camaster appears to use a adjustable rail system not machining.

[mactec54]

We are talking about real world practical answers to a problem in a home shop with a budget. It looks like you posted something worth considering.

Everything I post is usually accurate and open for interpretation, this how things are normally done, ( welcome to the real world ) your inability to understand is your problem, arrogance is another thing

You keep using the word real world, you all have brought these machines ( this is real world ) not knowing what you are buying ( this is reality ) when using these types of rails and bearings they need to be used how they where designed to be mounted this is real world information and available to everyone, simple research or hands on expearance that's all it takes

These are not a Hobby level machines when you are using real world components, there are no exceptions for bad design manufacture and assembly

[GME]

You don't need to have a straight edge for an even a more accurate alignment and flatness checking

A simple small roll of piano wire ( .020 Dia or similar can be smaller dia ) and feeler gauge set is all you need, you need to make a fixed block for one end of the piano wire, and the other mounting block so you can tension the wire, both blocks are fixed mounted by bolting or clamping, they must be rigidly mounted, this is simple and can be very accurate within .001 can be achieved

When making your adjustable side for tensioning the piano wire, think of a simple tuner like on a guitar can be just a bolt to wind up the wire

Piano wire is an interesting idea. I wouldn't have thought of it. I'd be a little concerned about deflection when using feeler gauges, though. Drawing the wire very tight would certainly help, but I wonder about .001 accuracy, especially at the middle of the run. You probably wouldn't be able detect small amounts of deflection. Obviously, you'd have to be very careful, but I wonder if I could be careful enough to get it right. I believe the preferred method for alignment is to mill reference edges and use them for guide rail alignment. Probably not too much additional cost, if your are paying to have the surfaces milled flat anyway. I am just concerned that the additional cost of milling and stress relief (I'd have to weld on plates for milling - the tubing isn't thick enough for milling) is going to be a non-starter. It may the the best way to do it right, but I don't have an unlimited budget. I just know that what I have isn't going to cut it.

Gary

[GME]

Just trying to think this out. Since the rail is on top of the 80 mm square tube that limits the adjustment up and down. To do the side to side parallel the rail would need adjustment slots. So its all limited to the adjustment in the bearing block attachment points and shimming under the gantry mounting plates. But how can adjusting the bearing blocks correct the rails not being parallel or the same height end to end?

I am guessing the Camaster has a rail mounted under the table and it has adjustments up / down or right / left. The Chinese machine I had for a short time was that way and the round rail was supported at points other than just the ends. The linear bearings they used had no adjustment, only the rail.

So can the rail on the Saturn 2 be adjusted and shimmed?

I don't see any way to shim the linear rails with any degree of accuracy. Shimming at just the attachment points would leave the rails bobbing up and down everywhere in between, which wouldn't be a good outcome.

I have never heard of adjustable rails, except to the extent they can be adjusted within the bolt hole. That adjustment appears very limited, based upon the specs I've read. Rails mounted on 80/20 extrusions have a bit more adjustment, given the slot width, but that another story. The extrusions have some minor amount of flex, where the Saturn 2 has essentially none. I wouldn't want adjustable linear rails in any event. Way to hard to adjust, and something else to give problems in operation. Having adjustability would just be an attempt to accommodate sloppy build IMHO.

I'm a little confused by the way you've described adjustment of the bearing blocks. Looks like some thinking out loud, which is fine. Anyway, the blocks are not adjustable. The tolerance is intentionally tight to start with, so no gain there. You would want to be careful shimming between the bearing block and aluminum plate, because it could mess up the alignment of the gearing (tip the motor mounts and drive gear relative to the gear racks). That would be trading one problem for another - of course assuming that you could get the linear rails parallel first.

As far as I can tell at this point, the only way to the the rails parallel involves removing the rails, weld filling the mounting holes in the frame, grinding the welds, drilling and tapping new holes for the linear rails and reinstalling. However, that does nothing to get them level. For that, you'd have to find some technique, like welding on plates, getting the metal stress relieved, and they have the plates milled or ground level. I suspect we are talking big $$$$. Bummer.

There are a lot of interrelated issues at work here. IMHO, you end up having to fix them all to get something usable in the end.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

Gary the round rails (on my Chinese one) were just that precision ground round bar stock and when you mount you have adjustment at each end along the supports planned when you secure them. Some have the round on top and kind of a support under as 8 shaped.

In what Jack posted in the PDF (on our flat rail) it appears to be some very limited adjustment left and right but no up and down leveling except shims or a rework.

I don't have answers but mine and a lot of others are working just fine. It really depends on the initial welding and stress relieving. The real answer of course is to send the entire machine back and start over.

I don't think any of the fixes presented above as to hauling to a large scale machine shop hundreds of miles away is economically feasible. I know in this area there are no shops large enough.

Maybe the answer is just removing the existing linear rail, Remount on a say 1/2 inch thick cold rolled plate. Have mounting slots milled for adjustment right/left and shim the plate to make it on the same plane as the other side and front to back. Sure your Z would have a little more clearance.

It would be nice to be able to post without Insults from someone who does not even own a Fine Line Automation machine. The last one was really good, insulting everyone here who purchased a FLA machine.

[GME]

Gary the round rails (on my Chinese one) were just that precision ground round bar stock and when you mount you have adjustment at each end along the supports planned when you secure them.

In what Jack posted in the PDF (on our flat rail) it appears to be some very limited adjustment left and right but no up and down leveling except shims or a rework.

I don't have answers but mine and a lot of others are working just fine. It really depends on the initial welding and stress relieving. The real answer of course is to send the entire machine back and start over.

I don't think any of the fixes presented above as to hauling to a large scale machine shop hundreds of miles away is economically feasible. I know in this area there are no shops large enough.

Yeah, the machine shops I found are are about 2.5 hours away in optimal traffic. That makes it more like 3 hrs each way in tough interstate traffic. It's down I-5, which in this area, carries huge volumes of commercial traffic between Seattle and Portland. And the cost is still an open question. Given the limited number of shops with suitable equipment, they can charge whatever they like. No real competition to keep the prices in check. Not begrudging the shops; it's the way things work. Tough for the consumer, when it's a hobbyist trying to swim in the water with the big industrial fish.

You're right. The real answer is to start over with a properly built machine.

Just curious. Have you checked your linear rails for parallel? Given that Fineline apparently installs the rails, I can't imagine what they used to try to get proper alignment. If they missed the mark by such a wide margin on mine, I cannot help but wonder about others. I'd say no sort of precision equipment was used in the install. Although a machine may appear to run okay, poor alignment translates to premature wear of the bearings and rails I've read that misalignment can cause outright bearing failure.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

Yeah, the machine shops I found are are about 2.5 hours away in optimal traffic. That makes it more like 3 hrs each way in tough interstate traffic. It's down I-5, which in this area, carries huge volumes of commercial traffic between Seattle and Portland. And the cost is still an open question. Given the limited number of shops with suitable equipment, they can charge whatever they like. No real competition to keep the prices in check. Not begrudging the shops; it's the way things work. Tough for the consumer, when it's a hobbyist trying to swim in the water with the big industrial fish.

You're right. The real answer is to start over with a properly built machine.

Just curious. Have you checked your linear rails for parallel? Given that Fineline apparently installs the rails, I can't imagine what they used to try to get proper alignment. If they missed the mark by such a wide margin on mine, I cannot help but wonder about others. I'd say no sort of precision equipment was used in the install. Although a machine may appear to run okay, poor alignment translates to premature wear of the bearings and rails I've read that misalignment can cause outright bearing failure.

Gary

Gary when I drop my gear drives I can almost make it coast from one end to another, same way with the X. If it was binding in any way thats when it would show up.

[Ntl]

"You would want to be careful shimming between the bearing block and aluminum plate, because it could mess up the alignment of the gearing (tip the motor mounts and drive gear relative to the gear racks). That would be trading one problem for another - of course assuming that you could get the linear rails parallel first."

The gear reduction has adjustable back lash so I can't see how using shims that make full contact on the mating surfaces would have any negative effects. It should just level out the aluminum plate if done correctly.

Dan

(After posting this I realized that you were talking about the tube being twisted, I don't think my machine has that problem, but if yours does you could shim the gear rack as well. I know it's a lot of time and energy, but it's definitely doable. You could also have the shims machined if you have the ability to draw them up in cad and are confident that you have the correct measurement of what they need to be. Honestly though no one should have to put this much work into a brand new machine.

Have you been in contact with Nate or anyone else from Fineline Automation? I still HAVEN'T received any response after I told them what the problem is with my machine.)

[wmgeorge]

"You would want to be careful shimming between the bearing block and aluminum plate, because it could mess up the alignment of the gearing (tip the motor mounts and drive gear relative to the gear racks). That would be trading one problem for another - of course assuming that you could get the linear rails parallel first."

The gear reduction has adjustable back lash so I can't see how using shims that make full contact on the mating surfaces would have any negative effects. It should just level out the aluminum plate if done correctly.

Dan

So Dan is there enough adjustment (for engaging the gear rack) do you think if you re-mounted those rails I suggested above? Actually a 3/8 or .375 CR thick plate and it could be a standard 2 or 2.5 inch wide bar, might be enough to be able to shim under and use milled slots I can't think you would need over .250 adjustment in the slots.

[GME]

"You would want to be careful shimming between the bearing block and aluminum plate, because it could mess up the alignment of the gearing (tip the motor mounts and drive gear relative to the gear racks). That would be trading one problem for another - of course assuming that you could get the linear rails parallel first."

The gear reduction has adjustable back lash so I can't see how using shims that make full contact on the mating surfaces would have any negative effects. It should just level out the aluminum plate if done correctly.

Dan

It's certainly possible that it wouldn't create a problem. Just something to look at. Yes, there is adjustable backlash, and it might force the gears into alignment, but if the backlash is forcing alignment, vs just keeping the teeth fully engaged, you would be adding an excess wear situation. Anytime you have to force moving parts into alignment, excess wear is sure to follow. I would want to measure to ensure that after shimming the horizontal face of the aluminum mounting plate is perpendicular to the vertical face of the gear rack. If it is, great. If it isn't, I believe you might want to factor in having to replace gear sets on a somewhat regular basis. Also, Just curious if you have checked your linear rails for parallel?

Gary

[Ntl]

So Dan is there enough adjustment (for engaging the gear rack) do you think if you re-mounted those rails I suggested above? Actually a 3/8 or .375 CR thick plate and it could be a standard 2 or 2.5 inch wide bar, might be enough to be able to shim under and use milled slots I can't think you would need over .250 adjustment in the slots.

I don't see why not since the gear reduction just cantaleavers and you could easily just install a longer bolt since everything pivots if that makes sense? The z axis would be the only thing I would worry about but since the spindle is adjustable 3/8 or 1/2" is nothing. The only other thing would be the proximity sensors needing to have enough adjustment to pick up the blocks. I know it would be a lot of work, but I'm sure it can be done. It's funny that we had the same fix in mind for the problem. I think Nate should step up and start working on the fix since we're not getting paid to re-engineer his design.

Dan

[GME]

Have you been in contact with Nate or anyone else from Fineline Automation? I still HAVEN'T received any response after I told them what the problem is with my machine.)[/QUOTE]


Nope, nothing yet. I'm resending my last email again today. Not letting it go.

Some of the problems can be fixed with excessive shims. What can't be fixed so readily are the linear rails being out of parallel. It's not like you can loosen a few bolts and realign them. The tolerances are too close. And, it's not like you can just drill some new holes and go from there. The amount of misalignment isn't so great that you would have discrete new holes. I believe there would be overlap between where the holes are, and where the holes should be. That means welding the holes closed and starting over. Then, we're talking about more finishing and paint. Also, getting the parallel alignment right will be tough, if not impossible, since the steel frame tubes are rotated out of horizontal, and the tubes are not flat (they have the usual concavity found in tubing). Want to bet whether there is some welding induced twist, or some twist from manufacturing. The fact that the tubes are not square suggests we are dealing with below par manufacturing processes. I also cannot ignore that I probably don't have the right precision equipment to do things right, although mactec54 had an interesting suggestion using piano wire.

I suppose, given enough time and money, all of the problems could be worked out. However, the cost of getting everything fixed right could cost as much or more than the machine. At this point, it's looking like the cost may far exceed the benefit, and you aren't likely to know the full cost until you start tearing into things and trying to work things out. I've been there and done that on other projects. Had I known at the beginning what the costs were going to be in the end, I wouldn't have ever started. Maybe you can relate?

Gary

[wmgeorge]

Frankly the fix I suggested, just remove the linear rails and remount on some 3/8 x 21/2 inch wide or so Cold Rolled flat would involve no welding, just milled slots every 12 inches or so for mounting the flat. I would mount the flat with 1/4-20 socket head screws. Allen screws as button head with a wide surface. Any machine shop and I bet Dan has a milling machine in his, could do it for not a lot of money. A day drilling and tapping holes and another shimming and adjustment of the flat with the linear rail on top. I have a ton of #7 drills and two flute taps and I use as my go to mounting fasteners.

Getting the rails parallel and then shimmed level should fix it. Dan and ditto what you said about engineering a fix!

I do not see how the piano wire could insure the linear rails are parallel maybe I missed something. It would work leveling left to right.

[Ntl]

Double post