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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Gary,

    I'm sorry to hear about the poor quality of the machine that you received. I feel a little responsible because I gave the system a glowing review. I do have one of the early Saturn (1) machines, and I believe that mine is well enough aligned that it works properly. I went through a long thought process before I decided to buy this system. I actually designed an 80/20 style machine with very big profiles and estimated the cost to build it. The cost of the Saturn machine was low enough that I decide to give it a shot. I was a little concerned about the welded frame and the fact that the linear rails are not mounted on qualified (machined) surfaces. It ended up working for me.

    I did have a backup plan, though it would have cost some some extra money. I was comfortable that the aluminum extrusion gantry on my Saturn would be fine, so I would have had to replace the main frame with aluminum extrusion. It would have been several hundred dollars, but I still I would have ended up at less than the cost of my original design. All of the parts Nate bolts on to the frame are fine. They will last a good long while with maintenance. So if push comes to shove, and you can't get this fixed, there is a way to build an aluminum extrusion frame that will be more than adequate for the job. It will not be quite as stiff, but it will not be the limitation of the machine. If you or a friend has the skills to weld up a new steel frame, that is another alternative. I am not a welder, so that wasn't an option for me. I was looking to put in my own effort to save some money and get the machine I wanted, and the aluminum extrusion frame would have allowed me to do that.

    If it comes down to it, I would be happy to share what I have for frame design, recognizing that this might not be the ideal solution. I hope that you and Nate can come to a better solution that will not cost you too much more effort (and no additional money).

    Good luck!

    -Robert



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    I also measured mine when mounting the gantry the second time. Mine was just under a mm. I opted not to fix it. So far it has not been a problem.
    2.2mm might be an issue. I don't know what the tolerance is here regarding the bearings.

    Jack.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by DDgitfiddle View Post
    Gary,

    I'm sorry to hear about the poor quality of the machine that you received. I feel a little responsible because I gave the system a glowing review. I do have one of the early Saturn (1) machines, and I believe that mine is well enough aligned that it works properly. I went through a long thought process before I decided to buy this system. I actually designed an 80/20 style machine with very big profiles and estimated the cost to build it. The cost of the Saturn machine was low enough that I decide to give it a shot. I was a little concerned about the welded frame and the fact that the linear rails are not mounted on qualified (machined) surfaces. It ended up working for me.

    I did have a backup plan, though it would have cost some some extra money. I was comfortable that the aluminum extrusion gantry on my Saturn would be fine, so I would have had to replace the main frame with aluminum extrusion. It would have been several hundred dollars, but I still I would have ended up at less than the cost of my original design. All of the parts Nate bolts on to the frame are fine. They will last a good long while with maintenance. So if push comes to shove, and you can't get this fixed, there is a way to build an aluminum extrusion frame that will be more than adequate for the job. It will not be quite as stiff, but it will not be the limitation of the machine. If you or a friend has the skills to weld up a new steel frame, that is another alternative. I am not a welder, so that wasn't an option for me. I was looking to put in my own effort to save some money and get the machine I wanted, and the aluminum extrusion frame would have allowed me to do that.

    If it comes down to it, I would be happy to share what I have for frame design, recognizing that this might not be the ideal solution. I hope that you and Nate can come to a better solution that will not cost you too much more effort (and no additional money).

    Good luck!


    -Robert
    Thank you, Robert. I'm not sure whether you knew it, but I also have a disassembled FLA 80/20 kit machine. The Saturn 2 was supposed to replace it. I thought maybe sometime downstream I'd reassemble it and use it for plasma cutting. The FLA kit was okay, but i wanted the linear rails and ball screw setup on Z. I could add linear rails to three axes, but I'd have to custom build carriages all around. Unfortunately, I don't have a milling machine to do that work. I'd have to design it in CAD and try to find someone to do the milling for me. Doable, but I suspect that having only few pieces made (as opposed to a production run) can get expensive.

    I can weld, and have a MIG, TIG and plasma. I'd have to buy machinery to make accurate square cuts. I'd also have to learn hand scraping to get the steel flat for the linear rails. Unfortunately, I've never welded professionally and question whether I have the skills necessary to do a proper job. I also do not know how I would get it stress relieved, if I could build a quality machine. Probably more to the point, I don't have the time to weld a frame together and do all the other things necessary to finish it. While I'm retired, I have a never ending remodel going on (it's a big house) and my wife would have a fit if I pulled myself off the remodel for too long. As much as I would like to try welding up a frame, I don't see it as a viable alternative.

    I am really interested in your frame design. As it is, I only have my FLA design, and what I can tell about the CNCRP design. I got an upgraded gantry when I bought my FLA kit, so I have the 3060 80/20 gantry profile, which is a good thing. I will be grateful if you would share your design with me. A PM would be great.

    Thanks again.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    I can weld, and have a MIG, TIG and plasma. I'd have to buy machinery to make accurate square cuts. I'd also have to learn hand scraping to get the steel flat for the linear rails. Unfortunately, I've never welded professionally and question whether I have the skills necessary to do a proper job. I also do not know how I would get it stress relieved, if I could build a quality machine.
    There's a build here where the builder welded up a frame, and had it stress relieved and machined for about $400 if I recall correctly. The fix could be as simple as welding some bar stock to the shop, if you can find a shop that could machine it.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    There's a build here where the builder welded up a frame, and had it stress relieved and machined for about $400 if I recall correctly. The fix could be as simple as welding some bar stock to the shop, if you can find a shop that could machine it.

    There's a thought. Maybe there's hope. I've never seen (in the flesh) a mill large enough handle something the size of a Saturn 2 4x4. I've seen some (very few) pictures of some industrial monsters, so I know they exist. However, I'm guessing there aren't many around. Without knowing anything to the contrary, I would have thought you couldn't get a milling job like this for anything close to $400, not to mention the price including stress relief. .

    I'll try to find the post, and see if I can start a dialog with the builder. At a minimum, it's worth having a conversation.

    Thank you for the lead, Gerry. Much appreciated.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    What really should happen, though, is Nate should send you a new machine.
    He's always had a reputation of having poor communication. But now, he'll have a reputation of delivering subpar machines, and will not get another recommendation unless he somehow makes good on these issues that have come up with several machines.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Well, the way I see it you have a couple choices. Stop now and put the machine back on the shipping pallet and get ready to return it. Or B try to make it work. I would lay it flat on the floor and use some large framing squares to check what you can that way. Purchase or borrow a piece of cold rolled steel bar stock, say 1x2 and see if it lays flat across the top of the frame, not bearing blocks but frame. If the frame is flat, square and true then you can work with the gantry to make it fit. Or fit a new one (gantry), preferred, if thats the real issue.

    If you go back a 100 years or more, before modern accurate lathes and milling machines you will find amazingly accurate work was done with what they had to use. It just took a lot longer and the use of shims and hand fitting as needed.

    I would think a Registered letter might get some attention if normal communication has failed.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    So are these machines made in the USA or are they made in China and assembled in the USA

    No matter where they are made the fabrication method's used is very poor and not suitable for machines like this, all mating surfaces after welding need to be stress relieved and then machined or Ground

    The fact that there is no machined surfaces for the linear rail mounting makes it a machine that is not worth a second look

    Linear rails require a machined surface to be mounted on, that have a surface tolerance that suits the bearing grade being used on the Linear Rail, even mounting Linear rails on an extrusion is a fail also, but in general can still a better surface then the painted steel mounting

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Well, the way I see it you have a couple choices. Stop now and put the machine back on the shipping pallet and get ready to return it. Or B try to make it work. I would lay it flat on the floor and use some large framing squares to check what you can that way. Purchase or borrow a piece of cold rolled steel bar stock, say 1x2 and see if it lays flat across the top of the frame, not bearing blocks but frame. If the frame is flat, square and true then you can work with the gantry to make it fit. Or fit a new one (gantry), preferred, if thats the real issue.

    If you go back a 100 years or more, before modern accurate lathes and milling machines you will find amazingly accurate work was done with what they had to use. It just took a lot longer and the use of shims and hand fitting as needed.

    I would think a Registered letter might get some attention if normal communication has failed.
    A 1 x 2 cold roll steel would not be suitable, you need a precision steel straight edge or a granite straight edge to do any of this type of machine checking / building, you don't always need these straight edges if everything has been machined after fabrication but for checking this is what would be required

    You say back 100 years they made accurate machines, yes they sure did and they used hand scrapped surface's and straight edges, quality machines made today are still made the same way and all the main mounting surfaces are hand scraped just as the did 100 years ago, but for a router fabricated machine like this good quality machining is all that is needed

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine-72-inch-straight-edge-2-jpg  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    A 1 x 2 cold roll steel would not be suitable, you need a precision steel straight edge or a granite straight edge to do any of this type of machine checking / building, you don't always need these straight edges if everything has been machined after fabrication but for checking this is what would be required

    You say back 100 years they made accurate machines, yes they sure did and they used hand scrapped surface's and straight edges, quality machines made today are still made the same way and all the main mounting surfaces are hand scraped just as the did 100 years ago, but for a router fabricated machine like this good quality machining is all that is needed
    So just wondering where you get a 8 foot steel or granite precision straight edge for a one time use and the cost? You do know this machine is made from 2 inch square tubing welded together about 600 lbs, 6 x 6 x 2 ft in size, I am sure you have a milling machine that will used for something like that..... right? The cost to do that would be?

    Think "real world" practical here.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    So just wondering where you get a 8 foot steel or granite precision straight edge for a one time use and the cost? You do know this machine is made from 2 inch square tubing welded together about 600 lbs, 6 x 6 x 2 ft in size, I am sure you have a milling machine that will used for something like that..... right? The cost to do that would be?

    Think "real world" practical here.
    You could if you needed a rough straight Edge, find one at some of the builder supply stores, that have them which would still be better than using cold rolled

    The straight edge in the snip is 72" long this is not something the Hobby guy is going to have but the machine builder should have everything that is needed to QC a machine like this

    2" square I thought they where made using 3" x 3"

    You can find straight edges steel or granite on Ebay at good prices sometimes

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Sure

    Last edited by wmgeorge; 11-07-2018 at 01:34 PM.


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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Hearing a lot of talk about a lot of extra work. Just a friendly suggestion to get back to basics.
    I might have missed it but I keep wondering. If you placed the gantry on the bearings. Found a place on both sides that is touching the bearing blocks. Place a bolt at both locations and snug them up. Then try to move the gantry back and forth.
    If it feels and sound smooth you could experiment from there.
    Besides, if you take this to the next step with FLA you will need to confirm that it is not usable.

    The distance between the two rails is concerning. Anyone know the model and specs of the bearings on these machines?

    Jack.

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    I checked my frame again and it seems fine. Mine has to do with the gantry steel beam. What I'm going to to do after thinking more about it is.

    Loosen up the aluminum plate from the bearing blocks see if then I can tighten up the gantry to the plate with no binding. If it works then I'll just shim in between the block and the aluminum plates as well as the z axis assembly if needed. I think it will be the simplest way to get the gantry level. And you won't be able to see the shims. Mine honestly doesn't seem that bad, but I won't know for sure until I start cutting parts. I'm a little bit surprised considering how everyone on here says what a great guy Nate is that he still hasn't gotten back to me about the gantry. It also seems like he hasn't been in touch with anyone lately, unless they just aren't saying so.

    Anyway you should get the router laid flat so you can see if that twist your seeing is just play in the bearing blocks since there isn't the down force of the gantry the way you have it. Also I don't know how straight that extrusion is you used. I say lay it down and see if the bearings are binding. If you already did I apologize I missed that post.

    Good luck and let us know if he ever gets back to you.

    Thanks,
    Dan



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by PLJack View Post
    I also measured mine when mounting the gantry the second time. Mine was just under a mm. I opted not to fix it. So far it has not been a problem.
    2.2mm might be an issue. I don't know what the tolerance is here regarding the bearings.

    Jack.
    1mm is a big number the Linear Bearings depending on what the preload value is, 0.1mm is more than it should be

    Mactec54


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    Wink Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Well, the way I see it you have a couple choices. Stop now and put the machine back on the shipping pallet and get ready to return it. Or B try to make it work. I would lay it flat on the floor and use some large framing squares to check what you can that way. Purchase or borrow a piece of cold rolled steel bar stock, say 1x2 and see if it lays flat across the top of the frame, not bearing blocks but frame. If the frame is flat, square and true then you can work with the gantry to make it fit. Or fit a new one (gantry), preferred, if thats the real issue.

    If you go back a 100 years or more, before modern accurate lathes and milling machines you will find amazingly accurate work was done with what they had to use. It just took a lot longer and the use of shims and hand fitting as needed.

    I would think a Registered letter might get some attention if normal communication has failed.

    Good suggestions. Thank you.




    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    So are these machines made in the USA or are they made in China and assembled in the USA

    No matter where they are made the fabrication method's used is very poor and not suitable for machines like this, all mating surfaces after welding need to be stress relieved and then machined or Ground

    The fact that there is no machined surfaces for the linear rail mounting makes it a machine that is not worth a second look

    Linear rails require a machined surface to be mounted on, that have a surface tolerance that suits the bearing grade being used on the Linear Rail, even mounting Linear rails on an extrusion is a fail also, but in general can still a better surface then the painted steel mounting

    My initial impression was that the machines were made in China. The tubing is metric, and I doubt a frame and gantry like the Saturn 2's could be fabricated here for the price FLA charges. I believe FLA does lineal rail, Z-axis, sensor blocks, etc. assembly.

    I knew going in that the surfaces were not machined. In fact, I recall that someone specifically asked the question on this forum and Nate answered that they weren't. So, it was known that this wasn't an industrial class machine. I believed that this machine was better than hobby class, but not industrial. Maybe commercial class.

    I admire your exacting standards, and unwillingness to accept anything less. I only wish I could afford them. As with many folks out there, I make compromises that you wouldn't. Nevertheless, you bring a useful perspective to the table, and I hope you will continue to do so. Were it not for your posts, I would never have figured out the settings on my HY VFD.





    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    A 1 x 2 cold roll steel would not be suitable, you need a precision steel straight edge or a granite straight edge to do any of this type of machine checking / building, you don't always need these straight edges if everything has been machined after fabrication but for checking this is what would be required

    You say back 100 years they made accurate machines, yes they sure did and they used hand scrapped surface's and straight edges, quality machines made today are still made the same way and all the main mounting surfaces are hand scraped just as the did 100 years ago, but for a router fabricated machine like this good quality machining is all that is needed

    I don't have, and will probably never have a 6 foot precision straight edge. The need vs cost is never going to tilt toward the purchase. I have top quality machinist squares (various sizes up to 12", and this Saturday, I am taking delivery of a 36" precision straight edge guaranteed to .0002" in 12". For me, that's as good as it gets. Wish I could afford a 6 footer, though.

    I have some familiarity with the way machines were made in "the old days." I've rehab'd a few over the years. I still wonder at what folks could do back then. I've read up on scraping, and studied the technique. I'd like to try it sometime, but have never had the occasion.




    Quote Originally Posted by PLJack View Post
    Hearing a lot of talk about a lot of extra work. Just a friendly suggestion to get back to basics.
    I might have missed it but I keep wondering. If you placed the gantry on the bearings. Found a place on both sides that is touching the bearing blocks. Place a bolt at both locations and snug them up. Then try to move the gantry back and forth.
    If it feels and sound smooth you could experiment from there.
    Besides, if you take this to the next step with FLA you will need to confirm that it is not usable.I

    The distance between the two rails is concerning. Anyone know the model and specs of the bearings on these machines?

    Jack.

    Thanks for moving the conversation around a bit, Jack. I haven't yet moved the machine to horizontal, so no, I haven't tried setting the gantry in place. From just a cursory look, I don't see any gross defects. I can say from my observations after removing the gantry mounting bolts, that the gantry mounting brackets both seem to touch the outsides of the aluminum mounting plates. Not surprising, given the angled orientation of the frame. More to the point, I shouldn't have to shim one side .107" and the other .034".

    As far as seeing how the gantry moves with the bolts loosed, I moved it a little - no more than a foot in each direction. It took much force to move it than I expeced, even with the bolts loosened. I strongly suspect that it has to do with the parallel deviation of linear rails. The bearing blocks are going to bind some in both directions. Given the weight of the gantry, there is going to be resistance even with the bolts loosened. There is also going to be resistance, because all of the gantry weight is going to be situated on the outside edges of the aluminum plate, which, in itself causes uneven pressure on the bearing blocks. Short of shimming right out of the gate, I'm not going to know what proper movement feels like. What I can say is that with the bolts loosened, I had to lean into the gantry to move it. I don't know whether or not that is what I should expect. I know it's comparing apples and oranges, but with my old machine with its 3"x6" gantry, moving the gantry back and forth was essentially effortless (with the motors dropped, of course).

    This brings use to a central issue - the linear rails being .086" out of parallel. I've searched the internet, and while I found some specs. for the CHTR TRH30B set, I couldn't find anything about parallelism. So, I did the next best thing. I searched other brands and read a few technical articles. The acceptable range of deviations between different brands small. First, a little background:

    Linear rail come in different grades along precision line. Normal precision, high precision, precision, super precision and ultra precision. Normal precision is the lowest precision level. The grading levels appear fairly standardized. For purposes of my parallelism search, I assumed that the Saturn 2 linear rails fit the normal precision (least precise) class.

    After looking at several sources, the greatest allowable deviation is (drum roll, please) .0017", and that number was from a general article. The actual manufacturers expressed it as 40 micrometers, which converts to .0015748". So, if your deviation is just under 1mm, it's too great. From what I read, the consequences are greatly accelerated bearing and rail wear. Even if you can't necessarily feel the deviation, it's bound to be causing you problems. Anyway, at .086" deviation versus .0017 max (more than 50 times what's allowable), the rails have to be loosened and reset (assuming there is enough room for adjustment), and failing that, the threaded hole would need to be filled with weld metal, ground smooth, redrilled and retapped. And, that doesn't address the tubing not being welded level.

    Maybe this helps explain why I haven't gone to the trouble of getting the machine off the dolly, and trying to mount the gantry. Moving even a little bit forward feels like just cobbling things together and calling it good - knowing the machine is very far from being even close to right. If it was just a matter of having to add a shim or two under the gantry mounts to compensate for minor weld warp, I'd be fine. I expect that sort of thing. But this? This is one badly built machine, and I'm pretty unhappy with it.

    If anyone believes I'm being unreasonable, lay it on me. I can take it. Maybe I need a reality check.

    Gary





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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    If anyone believes I'm being unreasonable, lay it on me. I can take it. Maybe I need a reality check.
    No.
    The Hiwin manual I have calls for parallelism to within .0010". For light preloaded blocks, its .00062"

    If the machine can't flex enough to accommodate the misalignment, the bearings will wear faster, or be damaged. Or they'll just bind and not slide at all.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    I checked my frame again and it seems fine. Mine has to do with the gantry steel beam. What I'm going to to do after thinking more about it is.

    Loosen up the aluminum plate from the bearing blocks see if then I can tighten up the gantry to the plate with no binding. If it works then I'll just shim in between the block and the aluminum plates as well as the z axis assembly if needed. I think it will be the simplest way to get the gantry level. And you won't be able to see the shims. Mine honestly doesn't seem that bad, but I won't know for sure until I start cutting parts. I'm a little bit surprised considering how everyone on here says what a great guy Nate is that he still hasn't gotten back to me about the gantry. It also seems like he hasn't been in touch with anyone lately, unless they just aren't saying so.

    Anyway you should get the router laid flat so you can see if that twist your seeing is just play in the bearing blocks since there isn't the down force of the gantry the way you have it. Also I don't know how straight that extrusion is you used. I say lay it down and see if the bearings are binding. If you already did I apologize I missed that post.

    Good luck and let us know if he ever gets back to you.

    Thanks,
    Dan

    Dan,

    Keep in mind that if you shim between the bearing block and aluminum plate, you are going to angle the aluminum plate. Since the motor mounts attach to the aluminum plate, you are going to change the relationship of the motor gears to the gear racks. That can cause a lot of excess wear.

    There was down force when the router was setting horizontal on the pallet. The washer were there at that time. When I loosened the bolts, the gaps were there. When I removed the bolts, the gaps were there. So, what I'm seeing in a vertical orientation is the same thing I was seeing in the horizontal. What this tells me though, it's the frame. There is no perceptible play in the bearing blocks. If there was, I'd throw them away.

    I rotated the extrusion and checked from all 4 sides. Same gaps, regardless of the side. It's straight.

    There was binding when I had the machine on the pallet. Partly because the bolts were causing the bind; partly because the rails are out of parallel by .086". I may lay it down, but the gross errors are so large that it's still going to be revealed as a bad build.

    Gary



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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    No.
    The Hiwin manual I have calls for parallelism to within .0010". For light preloaded blocks, its .00062"

    If the machine can't flex enough to accommodate the misalignment, the bearings will wear faster, or be damaged. Or they'll just bind and not slide at all.

    Thank you for looking up the specs on yours, Gerry. I agree with your conclusions.

    Not surprised that Hiwin have tighter tolerances than others. You've got the best, but then, you know that already.

    Gary




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    Default Re: Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

    I don’t know how you would machine a finished 4x4 or 4x8 welded frame. Interesting to look at for example the Camaster Stinger or other major brand router how are they made? The Stinger III is welded but says the gantry rides on 25 mm rails and bearings that are not mounted on the top of the welded tube. My guess its all adjustable and does not rely on the welded square tube being a 100% true.

    Last edited by wmgeorge; 11-07-2018 at 10:14 PM.
    1000x750 Workbee CNC - Mach4 - PMDX USB - Windows 10 Pro


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