Saturn 2 4x4 - Building 2nd Machine

[Ntl]

I thought I was the only one. Your experience is almost identical to mine. Post a picture when you can of the frame issue you're talking about. I don't really understand what you're putting a straight edge on for a reference. BTW I STILL HAVEN'T HEARD FROM NATE. He's definitely dodging me about the gantry. Keep me posted, I want to know if he gets back to you since he's not responding to me.

Thanks,
Dan

[GME]

I thought I was the only one. Your experience is almost identical to mine. Post a picture when you can of the frame issue you're talking about. I don't really understand what you're putting a straight edge on for a reference. BTW I STILL HAVEN'T HEARD FROM NATE. He's definitely dodging me about the gantry. Keep me posted, I want to know if he gets back to you since he's not responding to me.

Thanks,
Dan

Dan,

Sorry about the description. These things are difficult to explain without pictures. However, I'm going to give it another go and address it in terms of what you could do to check your machine.

First you need a straightedge that is long enough to span the width of your machine. The reference surfaces you are going to measure are the black aluminum plates that are bolted to the linear rail bearing blocks. They are the same plates your gantry bolts to. Let's call them the gantry mounting plates.

With the gantry removed, orient the straightedge across the width of the machine. You place it on top of and spanning the left and right gantry mounting plates, just as if you were mounting the gantry itself. If the straightedge sets flat across the plates, then the frame is fine. However, if the straightedge rests on the outside edges of the plate, leaving a gap under it on the inside edges, as with mine, the frame rail that the linear rail mounts to is necessarily tilted inward. If the straightedge rests on the inside edges of the gantry mounting plates, leaving a gap under it on the outside edges, then the frame rail is necessarily tilted outwards.

When I refer to tilt in one direction or the other, there could be multiple causes, but the effect is the same. the whole side could be welded to the cross pieces at an angle, or the short vertical pieces could have been cut at an angle causing the top frame beam to be welded at a tilt (e.g., if you cut the vertical at a 5 degree angle, what should be the top surface of the top beam would be sitting at a 5 degree angle as well and would account for a gap on either the inside or outside edge of a gantry mounting plate, when the gantry, or some other straightedge, is placed on it.

I believe we have all been operating under the mistaken assumption that the problem must be with the gantry. We've all read that the frame is jig welded and stress relieved, so we just don't tend to go to the frame as the problem. It's just easier to conceptualize the problem as gantry related and go from there. However, I believe, and it has taken me sometime to get there, that the frame may be the culprit. That isn't to say that the gantry doesn't have problems - I don't know whether or not it does. If the frame is fine, then the problem defaults to the gantry. It's just that what seems to be the obvious answer isn't always the correct one.

I hope this better clarifies things. If not, I'm sure photos will make it crystal clear.

I'll let you know when I hear from Nate. Lack of contact is not an option.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

Damn, I feel your pain. I must of been one of the lucky ones before things went downhill. Having read these recent stories make me Not to recommend FLA. Either QC went downhill fast or the build quality, both it sounds like.

Thousands of people read and research online everyday and CNCZone is very popular it will hurt his business.

Nate, nice guy or whatever needs to step up to the plate and do something now.

[ger21]

The principle problem appears to be some very bad frame alignment prior to welding (so much for welding in a jig). Trying to find good point of reference confounded me for a while. Then, the light came on, and I put a long straight edge across aluminum plates mounted to the bearing blocks. The straight edge hit the outside edges of both mounting plates, and revealed a sizeable gap on both inside edges

This is just plain unacceptable.
If you are going to use linear rails on a machine, they must be mounted to coplaner surfaces.
He needs to get these surfaces machined.

[wmgeorge]

I guess when I was shopping I had assumed the Saturn 2 was Made in USA. Now from what I am understanding the frame and gantry are Made in China and the rest done here. So that explains the issues with the frame and gantry welding and fabrication. Typical Chinese manufacturing is they do the first few runs perfect or very close. Then for more profit they sub-contract the job out to another plant.

Its a shame.

[Ntl]

[FONT=times new roman][SIZE=4]

This is just plain unacceptable.
If you are going to use linear rails on a machine, they must be mounted to coplaner surfaces.
He needs to get these surfaces machined.

Agreed, I didn't have any clue there would be a problem since the machines have been in service for over a year. I first heard of them here when I was researching what machine to buy. Apparently the problem didn't surface until after I got my machine or the guys who have them don't use them to notice? I'm still hopeful on my machine that it's just the steel gantry beam that has issues. If it's the whole frame I'm screwed. And the mating surfaces 100% should be machinind and that was the first thing I told him when I noticed it was binding.

Dan

[GME]

I guess when I was shopping I had assumed the Saturn 2 was Made in USA. Now from what I am understanding the frame and gantry are Made in China and the rest done here. So that explains the issues with the frame and gantry welding and fabrication. Typical Chinese manufacturing is they do the first few runs perfect or very close. Then for more profit they sub-contract the job out to another plant.

Its a shame.

I made the opposite assumption. I assumed it was made in China. You told me that it was made in the U.S., so I took your word for it - not that it would have necessarily changed my buying decision. The Chinese (China and Taiwan) build most of the woodworking machines we use and they are generally fine. I prefer "Made in the USA", but that's usually not an option. It all boils down to giving the manufacturer clear specifications, and have proper quality control to ensure that the specs are met. In this case, one or both appear lacking, and Nate darned sure knows it. Otherwise there wouldn't have been washers placed between the steel gantry mounts and the aluminum mounting plate. IMHO, the product needs to be taken off the market until the problems are corrected.

Gary

[Ntl]

I made the opposite assumption. I assumed it was made in China. You told me that it was made in the U.S., so I took your word for it - not that it would have necessarily changed my buying decision. The Chinese (China and Taiwan) build most of the woodworking machines we use and they are generally fine. I prefer "Made in the USA", but that's usually not an option. It all boils down to giving the manufacturer clear specifications, and have proper quality control to ensure that the specs are met. In this case, one or both appear lacking, and Nate darned sure knows it. Otherwise there wouldn't have been washers placed between the steel gantry mounts and the aluminum mounting plate. IMHO, the product needs to be taken off the market until the problems are corrected.

Gary

Yep I figured that out when I was building my stand and the tube dimensions he gave me were metric. I don't know of one fabricator or metal supplier that deals with metric steel tube. And where I'm at there is a lot of manufacturing and metal suppliers. I honestly don't care since that's the only way he could sell them for what he does. Trust me on that I looked into building one from scratch and it's not possible since you would spend more in material than the whole machine costs unless you buy tons of steel. I'm honestly happy with the machine as long as I get good cuts out of it and it's usable. I'm just extremely over the lack of communication from him, since from my experience dealing with vendors this is a very bad sign. The only reason I've been mellow about it is because everyone has said that's just the way he is and he always makes good. I guess the old sayings that I don't need to post seem at this point to be true. Hang in there buddy and hopefully Nate will step up and deal with the problem we are having with our machines.

Dan

[GME]

Agreed, I didn't have any clue there would be a problem since the machines have been in service for over a year. I first heard of them here when I was researching what machine to buy. Apparently the problem didn't surface until after I got my machine or the guys who have them don't use them to notice? I'm still hopeful on my machine that it's just the steel gantry beam that has issues. If it's the whole frame I'm screwed. And the mating surfaces 100% should be machinind and that was the first thing I told him when I noticed it was binding.

Dan

Dan,

I don't believe that machining is the answer to a problem like this. First off, the steel used for the frame isn't thick enough to machine. You would have to weld a plate on top of the tubing, and then machine the add-on piece. Second, if you were to machine the top of the tube the rails mount on, you would also have to machine the sides the gear racks mount to. Otherwise, the gear racks would not be at a perfect 90 degree angle relative to the top, which means the drive gears would not mesh properly. So, you would have to add more metal to the sides as well, to allow for machining. Not a practical solution. Cheaper and easier to just weld it right in the first place.

I did some reading on using self-leveling epoxy to level the top, and then mount the linear rails. While that would conceivably get the lineal rails level and in the same plane side-to-side, it would still leave the problem with the racks not having the right angular relationship relative to the linear rails. So, to make epoxy leveling work, after leveling the top of the tubing, you would have to flip the machine on it's sides, level it, and then use more self-leveling epoxy. That's the only practical way I can see to maintain the proper relationship between the lineal rails and the gear track. This would take considerable work with an uncertain outcome. It is noteworthy that the gear track has too little surface area to make angular shimming practical, and getting the proper angle with shims would be probably be impossible to achieve. Bummer.

Of course, if the frame was so badly welded to cause the sides to be angled inward, what about the other relationships? Are the linear rails truly parallel and in the same plane? An open question for now. There is also the question of the gantry. There could still be a problem there as well. It won't surprise me if there is. In fact, I pretty much expect it. I just haven't gotten that far yet.

More to follow.

Gary

[ger21]

Second, if you were to machine the top of the tube the rails mount on, you would also have to machine the sides the gear racks mount to. Otherwise, the gear racks would not be at a perfect 90 degree angle relative to the top, which means the drive gears would not mesh properly.

You might want to look into how square steel tube actually is.

[PLJack]

Thanks, Jack. Could it be that your gantry issue was actually a frame issue? Following your build, it never occurred to me that the easiest diagnostic would be put a straight edge all the way across the width of the machine on top of the aluminum gantry mount. That allows you to know whether it's frame or gantry. When I saw your issue reappear in mine, it hit me that it might not be the gantry at all.
Did you consider shimming between the bearing blocks and the aluminum gantry mount, instead of shimming between the plate and gantry. I ask, because it might be easier to square the gantry, if you didn't have all that shim stock trying to slide while you're making adjustments. Gary

I want to say that I did the bearing square test. I recall squaring off the tops of the plates. I do remember that the string I ran across the Y rails read the same level as my platform. So both sides were the same height.
In any case the front of the gantry "feet" were warped and needed shimming. Basically I set the gantry on the 4x4 tube heel and squared up the X rails against the Y rails. Then against the platform. Where ever it landed I shimmed the difference.
Sliding shims was not an issue. It takes very little torque on the screws to lock that gantry in place. Keep that in mind. There are 20 bolts holding the gantry. You don't need to go all ape on tightening those bolts.


Edit: I just walked over and did a quick visual. Really looks like the thin metal toe is not square against the 6.5" tubing. I would suspect that more than the sturdy frame tubing.

Jack.

[GME]

I want to say that I did the bearing square test. I recall squaring off the tops of the plates. I do remember that the string I ran across the Y rails read the same level as my platform. So both sides were the same height.
In any case the front of the gantry "feet" were warped and needed shimming. Basically I set the gantry on the 4x4 tube heel and squared up the X rails against the Y rails. Then against the platform. Where ever it landed I shimmed the difference.
Sliding shims was not an issue. It takes very little torque on the screws to lock that gantry in place. Keep that in mind. There are 20 bolts holding the gantry. You don't need to go all ape on tightening those bolts.


Edit: I just walked over and did a quick visual. Really looks like the thin metal toe is not square against the 6.5" tubing. I would suspect that more than the sturdy frame tubing.

Jack.

Thank you Jack. I believe mine is probably worse than yours. A big difference is setting the gantry on his heal and working from there, The heal of my gantry does not set flat on the aluminum plate. While there may be problems with the thin gantry feet (I haven't assessed that yet), that isn't what's keeping the gantry from setting flat. The Y-Axis steel tubes are welded such that tube is rotated inward at a slight angle. Unfortunately, there are other problems as well. The linear rails are not parallel. Neither are the large Y-Axis steel tubes. The more that I measure, the more issues I find. I wish it was just a matter of of some minor shimming. Not the case here.

More description and photos to follow . . . .

Gary

[PLJack]

The heal of my gantry does not set flat on the aluminum plate.
Gary

The right inner heel of mine is shimmed. The left is not. As long as the bearings are happy and the gantry is level it shouldn't be an issue.
My frame was hanging by straps in different configurations for a while. Can't really speak to how square it was when it arrived.

Jack.

[GME]

You might want to look into how square steel tube actually is.

Good suggestion, Gerry. I just checked the tube for square. It's not. The tubes were off + - .023" over the tube's 80mm square profile. The aluminum carriage is 135mm wide, so the predictable error (all other things being done correctly) should be about .039, when measured over the carriage's width. It's not, and especially on the left, not even close. When I measured the right inside face, the gap was at the top, which means that the tube would need to rotate counterclockwise to create a level top. That would just accentuate the problem, as the existing gap on the right is on the inside (left edge). It's good to know that the tubes are out-of-square, but it doesn't explain what's going on. Oh, and there's the usual concavity over the tube width. It amounts to about .010" or .011". I don't recall ever buying tubing that was perfectly flat across its width, so no particular surprise there.

I also check for the relationship of the side of the gear rack to the top of the linear rail. Because of such small surfaces separated as they are, it was to fussy to get any kind of accurate measurement. At this point, all I can say is there's a gap (not a 90 degree relationship). No surprise, given what I've seen. It would necessarily compromise gear tracking to some extent, but how much it would affect accuracy and wear is an open question.

Gary

[GME]

Okay, here we go with measurement results and photos. I will start with the first problem I recognized, the gaps where the gantry base mounts to the aluminum plate that's attached to the bearing blocks.



I used roller stands to support a 1515 piece of 80/20 extrusion to use in making the measurement. The machine is oriented vertically on a dolly, with the front of the machine against the carpet. The wire ties are keeping the carriages from sliding down (duh). The clamp is only tightened enough to hold the extrusion against the carriage. Very light pressure. Didn't want to risk any distortion by tightening.




Same as above, only on the right side.



This photo depicts the gap on the left side of the machine. The gap is on the inside edge of the carriage. Yes, it's a big gap. The gap is .107" at the very edge, as measured with feeler gauges. I wanted to use a caliper, but there wasn't enough room for a reliable measure.



This photo depicts the right carriage measurement. The gap isn't as large, but still too large. It measured out to .034".



Gerry (ger21) suggested checking the tubing for square. It was a good suggestion. It's not square. My reply to Gerry's suggestion is post 34 above.



I also decided to check the distance between the linear rails at the back (top in photo) versus the front (bottom in the photo. This photo is just to depict the measuring device I used.



This photo depicts the difference in the measurement. As far as methodology, I started at the back (top in photos above). I extended the rods until they were tight against the inside base edges of the linear rails. I did my best to ensure that the rods were level. If they weren't level, it would understate the amount of discrepancy. The gap shown here at the front of the machine is .086". With this sort of discrepancy from front to back, I believe Y-axis binding is a certainty. Lost steps and excessive wear.



Just for grins, I decided to measure the difference in width of the steel rail. As with the linear rails, I made zero reference at the back of the machine, and found the error at the front. The error was .026".

My conclusion: the frame builders missed the mark by a wide margin, and Nate (or his employee(s) missed it when installing the linear rails. I don't know about the gantry, am not sure it's worth the time and effort it would take to check it out. It looks to me like this Saturn 2 is beyond redemption.

Suggestions welcome.

Gary

[GME]

This is a follow up to my last post. Here are some photos relating to the steel tubing being out-of-square. They were taken at various points.





Gary

[wmgeorge]

I made the opposite assumption. I assumed it was made in China. You told me that it was made in the U.S., so I took your word for it - not that it would have necessarily changed my buying decision. The Chinese (China and Taiwan) build most of the woodworking machines we use and they are generally fine. I prefer "Made in the USA", but that's usually not an option. It all boils down to giving the manufacturer clear specifications, and have proper quality control to ensure that the specs are met. In this case, one or both appear lacking, and Nate darned sure knows it. Otherwise there wouldn't have been washers placed between the steel gantry mounts and the aluminum mounting plate. IMHO, the product needs to be taken off the market until the problems are corrected.

Gary

Gary I have looked over my posts and I do not recall saying the Saturn 2 was made in USA. I had assumed it was but never recall putting anything in a post saying so? If so I am sorry.

[GME]

Gary I have looked over my posts and I do not recall saying the Saturn 2 was made in USA. I had assumed it was but never recall putting anything in a post saying so? If so I am sorry.

Apology accepted. As I mentioned before, it wouldn't have changed my buying decision.

For your reference, you posted under PLJack's long build post at page 20, post #238. The text from your post is as follows:

"The machines are made in NC I believe, or SC not China. i think he is the first one with this problem, don’t recall anyone else? Is it an issue that will affect the how well the machine works, you wouldn’t know until its running? Price increase, they had an intoductory sale price but not now. Trump added tariffs to Imported steel and that would increase prices of imported and domestic steel."

I had opined that I believed the machines were made in China and mentioned the price increase was due to tariffs. You disagreed.

Just as an FYI, doing a search by someone screen name does not produce a complete list of that person's posts. I don't understand why, but I've tried and have gotten pretty frustrated. I found a workaround, but right now, I don't recall what I did. It was one of those trial and error sorts of things that finally produced what I was looking for.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

But in post #236 same Thread you had already ordered one before I had posted. I did really want to believe they were Made in U.S.A. Frankly I had mine ordered before all that. In any event, I hope yours turns out and Nate gets some funding or whatever it takes to do it right. The Saturn line could be real success. (insert American flag here).

[difalkner]

Early on the stands were to be made in NC. I don't know if they're still being made there.

David