Saturn router Overall turns ratio “Turns per inch”

[ger21]

Gecko's have a feature that most other drives do not, which is full step morphing.
Meaning that at some point (~300rpm maybe?), the drive switches to full step mode, which eliminates the loss of torque from microstepping. This is supposed to give you the benefits of microstepping (smoother running, less resonance) without the drawbacks.

Those drives are fairly new, and I haven't heard from anyone using them.
The one issue you might have is that the high step count may limit your speed. What's the max pulse rate of the acorn, and what's the max pulse rate of the Gecko?

Let us know how these settings work out. I'm curious.
Years ago, Gecko was considered the gold standard, but in the last 5 years, Leadshine has become more popular.

Here’s a article that isn’t 15 years old.

Which appears to say the same thing....

[Erik F]

Last time I talked to Gecko Drive they said anything over 10x micro stepping was a waste. I used 10x for simple math.

[ger21]

Because in the past, all of their drives were fixed at 10x microstepping. Which apparently works best with their designs.

[Ntl]

[QUOTE=wmgeorge;2220738]NtI your Link does not work correctly.

I fixed the pdf you can now read the entire article.

[Ntl]

Gecko's have a feature that most other drives do not, which is full step morphing.
Meaning that at some point (~300rpm maybe?), the drive switches to full step mode, which eliminates the loss of torque from microstepping. This is supposed to give you the benefits of microstepping (smoother running, less resonance) without the drawbacks.

Those drives are fairly new, and I haven't heard from anyone using them.
The one issue you might have is that the high step count may limit your speed. What's the max pulse rate of the acorn, and what's the max pulse rate of the Gecko?

Let us know how these settings work out. I'm curious.
Years ago, Gecko was considered the gold standard, but in the last 5 years, Leadshine has become more popular.



Which appears to say the same thing....

You are correct the way the 214 is designed it only Microsteps at low speeds. There is actually a long thread on this forum discussing what we’re talking about, and Marcus goes into great detail explaining what happens and what their drives do differently.

You are also correct with the limited top speed based on higher resolution and with the Acorn and my settings I’m limited to a max speed on x and y to 942 inches per minute and 188 on the z axis. Which would be pushing the limit of my machine anyway.

As for the maximum pulse rate the Gecko 214 per manual:

“The frequency and speed will depend on the Microstep resolution chosen. The maximum frequency input is 2.5 MHz, allowing for a maximum speed of 2,929 RPM at the highest resolution of the G214.” (The highest resolution is 256 uSTEP).

As for the Acorn I’m not sure where to find the info but it works and I don’t plan on running any higher resolution setting since I know it’s already over kill for my application. The way Marcus explained it to me was that the higher Microsteps as long as my controller can handle them will have no negative effect on my machine and are basically there if I need them. I honestly don’t know how much resolution I will get out of the machine itself based on the mechanical limitations but I might as well use what I paid for as far as the drivers are concerned.

At the end of the day if my machine works well and is reliable that’s all that matters to me, if I have problems it takes 30 seconds to change the resolution. And I appreciate everyone trying to look out for the nubee but for now I’m going with the drive manufacturers advice on how to set up the drivers he makes. If I have problems and it cuts like garbage, everyone has the green light to say I told you so. For now bench testing running test cut files the motors run silky smooth.

Thanks guys again for the help, I didn’t realize I was opening a can of worms with the Microstep controversy. It reminds of some of the arguments I’ve seen in welding forums. Those are some really bad ones lol.

[GME]

On Nates website it says the NEMA 34 pinion spindles are 3.2:1 when used with the 20 tooth motor pulley. I believe the pinions themselves are 1". 3.2/3=1.067 inches per revolution. https://www.finelineautomation.com/p...le?taxon_id=38
Not sure if that is exactly what you were looking for.
Erik

I believe Erik may have inadvertently provided incorrect information. While it's true that Nate advertises a 3.2:1 drive spindle for the NEMA 34, the advertisement is different than his AD for the Saturn 2. It's also different than the Ad for his R&P drive. If look at the Saturn 2 AD, you will see that for the the Saturn 2, he says it's 3:1. He either did something different for the Saturn 2, or his stated spec for the Saturn 2 is a typo. Here is an excerpt from the add:

Our machines are driven by high-quality Rack and Pinion Drives (X and Y axes) and precision ground ballscrews (Z-Axis):

• Our best in class Rack And Pinion drives feature:
  
  • The pivot point utilizes 3 different bearings for frictionless pivoting without wiggle. A needle thrust bearing keeps the plate from rubbing against the mounting plate while a high load sealed ball bearing and eccentric ball bearing keeps the whole plate from wiggling which results in excessive wear on the pinion.
  • The pinion gear is an integrated pinion and timing pulley. Inside the pinion is a sealed ball bearing which rides on a stainless steel precision machined shaft. Don't be fooled by other systems that utilize bushings: A bearing will not wear and will always provide a smoother, more consistent motion that a bushing!
  • All black anodized parts and stainless steel hardware.
  • A 3:1 Timing belt reduction. This reduction gives the rack and pinion drive better accuracy and protects the motor from unnecessary wear.
  • A unique CAM tensioning system to apply and keep tension on the timing belt.
  • An easily adjustable spring tensioning system to always keep the pinion engaged with the rack.

Sorry I didn't chime in sooner. When I read the posts the first time, I missed the discrepancy. When I woke up this morning, it was on my mind. Go figure.

Note: My FLA kit CNC has the 3.2:1. I'm guessing that the 3.2:1 R&P spindle is now a legacy part and Nate is not yet advertising the new one.

Gary

[Ntl]

I believe Erik may have inadvertently provided incorrect information. While it's true that Nate advertises a 3.2:1 drive spindle for the NEMA 34, the advertisement is different than his AD for the Saturn 2. It's also different than the Ad for his R&P drive. If look at the Saturn 2 AD, you will see that for the the Saturn 2, he says it's 3:1. He either did something different for the Saturn 2, or his stated spec for the Saturn 2 is a typo. Here is an excerpt from the add:

Our machines are driven by high-quality Rack and Pinion Drives (X and Y axes) and precision ground ballscrews (Z-Axis):

• Our best in class Rack And Pinion drives feature:
  
  • The pivot point utilizes 3 different bearings for frictionless pivoting without wiggle. A needle thrust bearing keeps the plate from rubbing against the mounting plate while a high load sealed ball bearing and eccentric ball bearing keeps the whole plate from wiggling which results in excessive wear on the pinion.
  • The pinion gear is an integrated pinion and timing pulley. Inside the pinion is a sealed ball bearing which rides on a stainless steel precision machined shaft. Don't be fooled by other systems that utilize bushings: A bearing will not wear and will always provide a smoother, more consistent motion that a bushing!
  • All black anodized parts and stainless steel hardware.
  • A 3:1 Timing belt reduction. This reduction gives the rack and pinion drive better accuracy and protects the motor from unnecessary wear.
  • A unique CAM tensioning system to apply and keep tension on the timing belt.
  • An easily adjustable spring tensioning system to always keep the pinion engaged with the rack.

Sorry I didn't chime in sooner. When I read the posts the first time, I missed the discrepancy. When I woke up this morning, it was on my mind. Go figure.

Note: My FLA kit CNC has the 3.2:1. I'm guessing that the 3.2:1 R&P spindle is now a legacy part and Nate is not yet advertising the new one.

Gary

Yes I saw that too and if I remember correctly he told me it was 3:1 as well.

With that said the gear reduction drives I received have 64 teeth on the large pulley and 20 on the small one for a 3.2:1 ratio.
So either I got the old ones which is highly probable since my stepper motor pulleys have the wrong size keyway slot and I’m still waiting for replacement pulleys. Or like you said it’s a typo on his website, but I could’ve sworn he told me on the phone they were 3:1 and I think I just got the wrong ones.

Do you know if a 3:1 would have any benefit over a 3.2:1 or vise versa ?

Thanks

[GME]

Yes I saw that too and if I remember correctly he told me it was 3:1 as well.

With that said the gear reduction drives I received have 64 teeth on the large pulley and 20 on the small one for a 3.2:1 ratio.
So either I got the old ones which is highly probable since my stepper motor pulleys have the wrong size keyway slot and I’m still waiting for replacement pulleys. Or like you said it’s a typo on his website, but I could’ve sworn he told me on the phone they were 3:1 and I think I just got the wrong ones.

Do you know if a 3:1 would have any benefit over a 3.2:1 or vise versa ?

Thanks

I could be wrong, but I believe it is just a question of resolution. 3.2:1 would give a slightly higher number of steps per than 3:1. I did not go back in the thread, but I seem to recall that you have Geckos that allow setting a higher resolution than others in the Gecko line. I have the 203Vs - 10 micro steps. Again, if memory serves, yours go up to 256 micro steps. So, you can easily more than make up for the slight loss of resolution in the gearing through use of micro stepping. BTW, I wish I had your drives. They weren't available when I bought mine. Unfortunately, I'm not inclined to upgrade - at least at this point. I'll be interested in hearing how yours work out for you. Your experience may change my mind - assuming Mach4 and my hardware can handle it.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

Yes I saw that too and if I remember correctly he told me it was 3:1 as well.

With that said the gear reduction drives I received have 64 teeth on the large pulley and 20 on the small one for a 3.2:1 ratio.
So either I got the old ones which is highly probable since my stepper motor pulleys have the wrong size keyway slot and I’m still waiting for replacement pulleys. Or like you said it’s a typo on his website, but I could’ve sworn he told me on the phone they were 3:1 and I think I just got the wrong ones.

Do you know if a 3:1 would have any benefit over a 3.2:1 or vise versa ?

Thanks

FYI if you have the NEMA 34 motors they have a flat and the pulley has two set screws. Make sure you use Blue Locktite on all the screws. I just lined up the flat on that 1/2 inch shaft with one of the set screws. The other screw tightened to the shaft also.

[Ntl]

FYI if you have the NEMA 34 motors they have a flat and the pulley has two set screws. Make sure you use Blue Locktite on all the screws. I just lined up the flat on that 1/2 inch shaft with one of the set screws. The other screw tightened to the shaft also.

I built my own controller from the ground up since I wanted to use the Centroid Acorn controller (it’s not the plug and play he sells).
Also my Nema34 motors don’t have a flat mine have a 5mm keyway like the new ones Nate sells, mine are just a different brand stepper and I sourced all my electronics myself.

I appreciate the advice though thanks,
Dan

[Ntl]

I could be wrong, but I believe it is just a question of resolution. 3.2:1 would give a slightly higher number of steps per than 3:1. I did not go back in the thread, but I seem to recall that you have Geckos that allow setting a higher resolution than others in the Gecko line. I have the 203Vs - 10 micro steps. Again, if memory serves, yours go up to 256 micro steps. So, you can easily more than make up for the slight loss of resolution in the gearing through use of micro stepping. BTW, I wish I had your drives. They weren't available when I bought mine. Unfortunately, I'm not inclined to upgrade - at least at this point. I'll be interested in hearing how yours work out for you. Your experience may change my mind - assuming Mach4 and my hardware can handle it.

Gary

You are correct with them going up to 256 and I’ll let you know once I get the parts from Nate to get the machine finished up. So far bench testing my motors with the Centroid controller everything seems fine. I’m sure I won’t really know though until I can mount my motors to the router and get everything tuned properly. I’ll post some YouTube links on my build thread once everything is up and running and I’m cutting parts.

Thanks,
Dan

[wmgeorge]

I built my own controller from the ground up since I wanted to use the Centroid Acorn controller (it’s not the plug and play he sells).
Also my Nema34 motors don’t have a flat mine have a 5mm keyway like the new ones Nate sells, mine are just a different brand stepper and I sourced all my electronics myself.

I appreciate the advice though thanks,
Dan

I am very interested to hear how the Acorn controller works out. Thanks for posting.

[Ntl]

I am very interested to hear how the Acorn controller works out. Thanks for posting.

No problem will do.

[DDgitfiddle]

I could be wrong, but I believe it is just a question of resolution. 3.2:1 would give a slightly higher number of steps per than 3:1. I did not go back in the thread, but I seem to recall that you have Geckos that allow setting a higher resolution than others in the Gecko line. I have the 203Vs - 10 micro steps. Again, if memory serves, yours go up to 256 micro steps. So, you can easily more than make up for the slight loss of resolution in the gearing through use of micro stepping. BTW, I wish I had your drives. They weren't available when I bought mine. Unfortunately, I'm not inclined to upgrade - at least at this point. I'll be interested in hearing how yours work out for you. Your experience may change my mind - assuming Mach4 and my hardware can handle it.

Gary

The 3.2:1 would also give a little more torque and a little less speed compared to the 3:1. I believe the reduction depends on whether you select NEMA 23 or NEMA 34 motors. In the past, the NEMA 23 drives shipped with 3:1 reduction, and the NEMA 34 shipped with a 3.2:1. The FineLine website is inconsistent on this to be sure. Maybe Nate adjusted it when he revised the drive designs last year.

[Ntl]

The 3.2:1 would also give a little more torque and a little less speed compared to the 3:1. I believe the reduction depends on whether you select NEMA 23 or NEMA 34 motors. In the past, the NEMA 23 drives shipped with 3:1 reduction, and the NEMA 34 shipped with a 3.2:1. The FineLine website is inconsistent on this to be sure. Maybe Nate adjusted it when he revised the drive designs last year.

I got my table right after Labor Day and mine has the 3.2:1 ratio but that makes sense about the torque and also the nema 23s I never looked at the specs of those motors since I knew I was going to run the nema 34s. I was just curious.

Thanks

[Ntl]

The 3.2:1 would also give a little more torque and a little less speed compared to the 3:1. I believe the reduction depends on whether you select NEMA 23 or NEMA 34 motors. In the past, the NEMA 23 drives shipped with 3:1 reduction, and the NEMA 34 shipped with a 3.2:1. The FineLine website is inconsistent on this to be sure. Maybe Nate adjusted it when he revised the drive designs last year.

I forgot to let you know Gary,

Nate got back to me and you are correct the 23s have 3:1 and the 34s have 3.2:1.

Thank you,
Dan