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  1. #81
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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    40% under advertised is not very good and I’m sure someone is going to debate me on this as well?

    Dan

    I don't believe anyone is going to debate you on the question of the rapid not living up to advertised specifications. I'm certainly going to expect my machine to be capable of running as advertised, even if I don't plan to push it to the limit.

    I believe I asked earlier, what is setting for acceleration? I believe must of us are set at something around 50 or 60. Not suggesting the setting is creating your problem, but it might be worth checking.


    Last edited by GME; 10-25-2018 at 11:40 AM.


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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    As you increase your acceleration, your maximum velocity will decrease. Ask Nate what acceleration setting he uses to achieve the 1200ipm.

    In most cases, higher acceleration and slower rapids is more advantageous that faster rapids and higher acceleration.

    Last edited by ger21; 10-25-2018 at 09:15 AM.
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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Its a 2x4 foot table you will never have enough area to make it to those speeds unless you jump the acceleration way up and then your going to get jerky movements. The fast rapids don't mean a lot on a small table. Go to the competition websites check out the advertised vs actual. The rack and pinion models are also the only ones that can make those speeds.

    Sheet metal plasma tables are large, they can achieve and need those speeds. We are cutting and some of us are planning to cut 3/4 inch ply in one pass.

    FYI the PlasmaCAM with the HyperTherm torch, was about a 12k investment and it was a moneymaker. But I got tired of the plasma dust, even with a water table it still was everywhere. The PC was never designed to compete against the big commercial tables for sheet metal.

    Last edited by wmgeorge; 10-25-2018 at 08:06 AM.
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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    I have one of the original Saturn's and use it with both a 2.2kw spindle for routing and I can remove the spindle, mount the torch mount and slide in a water table for plasma using a hypertherm 45xp. I use a nema 23 drive setup and I've never came close to needing more speed... for rapids nor especially cutting with either. I see the occasional thread regarding "how fast will it go" and it seems a bit silly to me considering you can't cut at those speeds and rapids are plenty fast enough. Increasing or lowering the rapid speeds moderately aggressive amounts have very little impact on the overall machining time. Now speed up the rpms, use the right bit, or crank up the plasma power and yes the higher cut speeds impact the overall times considerably, but like I said... you can only cut so fast anyway and it can well exceed those needs. (just my 2 cents).



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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Thanks everyone for their input.

    Dan



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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Dan,

    I have a couple more things to possibly try.

    First, are you homing before trying to run the rapids? If so, are you using both sensors on the Y-axis? I don't know how Acorn works, but I assume it disconnects the slave stepper for purposes of homing at each sensor - like Mach3 & 4. Anyway, it could be that the process of homing could be introducing a bind. I know you loosened and retightened the gantry bolts, but if not done in the home position, introducing a bind when homing is possible. You might want to home, block the carriages in that position so they can't move, loosen and retighten the bolts and see what happens.

    Second, I ran across the following solution in another thread. I question whether it would work to square the gantry, which is what it was supposed to do, but I can see how it might relieve stress that could cause binding. Something that might be worth trying. The relevant text is as follows:

    I had the same issue on ours. Here was the fix, based on past experience with other rack & pinion driven routers:


    NOTE: You will probably have to adjust the limit switches to get it to re-home after doing this procedure


    1. Home the machine.
    2. Loosen the 20 gantry bolts (on our Saturn 2 - not sure how many on the Saturn) to finger tight.
    3. Re-home the machine.
    4. If the gantry still appears out of square, manually pull the gantry into close proximity on the side that's off. This is where you may have to adjust the limit switches.
    5. Jog the gantry around the table 2 - 3 times, then home it again.
    6. Snug the bolts on the Y side.
    7. Re-home the machine.
    8. Snug the rest of the bolts down.


    I was having trouble homing our machine after trying to adjust the limit switches to get it to square. After running this routine it homed right away.

    Keep us posted on what you are trying and what works and what doesn't.

    Gary




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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Its a 2x4 foot table you will never have enough area to make it to those speeds unless you jump the acceleration way up and then your going to get jerky movements. The fast rapids don't mean a lot on a small table. Go to the competition websites check out the advertised vs actual. The rack and pinion models are also the only ones that can make those speeds.

    Sheet metal plasma tables are large, they can achieve and need those speeds. We are cutting and some of us are planning to cut 3/4 inch ply in one pass.

    FYI the PlasmaCAM with the HyperTherm torch, was about a 12k investment and it was a moneymaker. But I got tired of the plasma dust, even with a water table it still was everywhere. The PC was never designed to compete against the big commercial tables for sheet metal.
    Thanks for your input, and I was referring to plasma cams build construction, from everything I’ve read about them and can see by the construction you’re spending the money on the software didn’t mean to offend you. That table isn’t in the same category as a JD2 Table for the money and build quality.

    And I will have to disagree with you on the rack and pinion comment, have you ever seen how fast a good VMC is in person? I understand it’s apples and oranges but it’s just a example. Thanks for your input and like you said everyone has different needs. I personally want my machine to live up to the specs and if it’s not capable of the advertised rapids, what else will it not be capable of that was advertised? I think a lot of people are being defensive for no reason. All I did was ask a simple question if anyone else was dealing with a binding issue with speeds over a certain ipm.

    I already determined that it’s more than likely due to the steel beam not being perfectly straight and or it warping due to the welding of the end caps.

    For now the short term fix was to loosen up the gantry where it attaches to the aluminum plate that the bearing blocks attach to as well as the bolts on gusset brackets square it up and just snug everything down. The second anything is torqued down it starts binding again. What it’s doing is the steel beam is essentially preloading the aluminum plate and making the gantry bind up. I’m sure the guys who have the older version aren’t having the issue because extruded aluminum is very straight compared to mill stock rectangular steel tube, also welding the end caps didn’t help things out since it introduces warping. Basically the only way I’m getting it perfect is to remove the steel beam and take it to the shop and have it machined flat or make a new gantry.

    Thanks again for trying to help me out.

    Dan



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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Quote Originally Posted by coherent View Post
    I have one of the original Saturn's and use it with both a 2.2kw spindle for routing and I can remove the spindle, mount the torch mount and slide in a water table for plasma using a hypertherm 45xp. I use a nema 23 drive setup and I've never came close to needing more speed... for rapids nor especially cutting with either. I see the occasional thread regarding "how fast will it go" and it seems a bit silly to me considering you can't cut at those speeds and rapids are plenty fast enough. Increasing or lowering the rapid speeds moderately aggressive amounts have very little impact on the overall machining time. Now speed up the rpms, use the right bit, or crank up the plasma power and yes the higher cut speeds impact the overall times considerably, but like I said... you can only cut so fast anyway and it can well exceed those needs. (just my 2 cents).
    What kind of rapids do you get? Also do you have the extruded aluminum gantry or the new steel one?

    Thanks,
    Dan



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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    That’s pretty much what I did, unfortunately until the new router update is released the Acorn doesn’t do auto square. I have it set now where I can get 800ipm rapids reliably, but I can’t torque the gantry bolts down because it loads up the linear bearings. I need to figure it out because the preload is going to destroy the bearing blocks fast. I’m going to run it for now with everything just snug since it doesn’t bind and see what happens. Hopefully Nate will get a hold of me and possibly have some suggestions.

    Thanks again for the help!
    Dan

    Just realized that it didn’t reply to Gary GME, apparently I needed to use the quote reply.



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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    FYI I have dropped my Y & Y motor / gear drives and there is Zero dragging or binding. I have the CNC Router parts prewired controller, plug and play. I have tweaked and changed and whatever with my motor tuning. I can get reliable rapids at 600 ipm. I am running at 500 because IF I get dust or dirt or whatever in the gear drive or rack I do not want skipped steps. I ran a job Monday, the job from hell. MDF and I did not have my dust collector completely done, how bad could it be? Seven hours total with dust like snow drifts on the table. I had the shop OH door open.... Now my dust collector is working!!

    Think of Rapids speed claims as MPG advertising goes.

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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    FYI I have dropped my Y & Y motor / gear drives and there is Zero dragging or binding. I have the CNC Router parts prewired controller, plug and play. I have tweaked and changed and whatever with my motor tuning. I can get reliable rapids at 600 ipm. I am running at 500 because IF I get dust or dirt or whatever in the gear drive or rack I do not want skipped steps. I ran a job Monday, the job from hell. MDF and I did not have my dust collector completely done, how bad could it be? Seven hours total with dust like snow drifts on the table. I had the shop OH door open.... Now my dust collector is working!!

    Think of Rapids speed claims as MPG advertising goes.
    Yes before I even installed my motors I had binding, I actually asked Nate about it when the table first got here I honestly kinda forgot about it since I didn’t realize it would be a problem. I thought it would just work itself out and maybe the bearings were just sticking from sitting. It was one of the first things I noticed when I got the table that it seemed like the steel beam was either warped or the holes that the linear rail bolts to were not tapped perfect or the bearing blocks were out of alignment. Just my luck I get one that has issues no one else does. If yours was like mine it would be even more dramatic since you have a 4’ gantry. I guess I’ll just keep waiting to see if Nate contacts me, he said he was going to yesterday and never did.

    Any way thanks for the info and it appears that I’m just one of the unlucky ones that is having some issues with my gantry.

    Dan



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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Absolutely if you have binding it needs to be addressed.

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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Absolutely if you have binding it needs to be addressed.
    Thanks again for the help



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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    As you increase your acceleration, your maximum velocity will decrease. Ask Nate what acceleration setting he uses to achieve the 1200ipm.

    In most cases, higher acceleration and slower rapids is more advantageous that faster rapids and higher acceleration.
    Thank you for the help and I’m sure you’re right about the faster acceleration since I changed the acceleration when I was trying to see if it was a setting that was contributing to the mechanical issue. And it seems like it could have a affect on the cut quality at normal speeds since it takes longer to ramp up to full speed. It seems like for a bunch of quick moves it could cause a problem since it might not ever get to the actual cutting speed you programmed? Is that kind of what you’re talking about?

    Thanks again,
    Dan



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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Worked a little on finishing up my electronics today. Still waiting on some more parts a little bit every day, hopefully it doesn’t take me 15 years to finish this thing. It’s been one thing after another.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New 2x4 Saturn build-ef4311ac-d0f5-4f63-afa6-c2b7a92cd1f8-jpg  


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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Worked a little on finishing up my electronics today. Still waiting on some more parts a little bit every day, hopefully it doesn’t take me 15 years to finish this thing. It’s been one thing after another.
    Very nice Dan. Looks clean.
    That RJ45 cable is worrying me though. Might not take well to a tug on the cable.

    Cheap solution I used.:
    New 2x4 Saturn build-clipboard02-jpg
    Just an FYI.

    Jack.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New 2x4 Saturn build-clipboard02-jpg  
    Jack
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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Quote Originally Posted by PLJack View Post
    Very nice Dan. Looks clean.
    That RJ45 cable is worrying me though. Might not take well to a tug on the cable.

    Cheap solution I used.:
    New 2x4 Saturn build-clipboard02-jpg
    Just an FYI.

    Jack.
    Thank you, I’ve seen guys running those but I didn’t know where to get them. Right now a lot of what you’re seeing is temporary since I still have a lot of work to do to finish up. I’m fabing up a tray for the pc to mount up under the table, a lexan/aluminum door, need to install the fans in the enclosure, install the water cooling system, mount my sensors and wire them, install the plugs for the stepper motors, order some caps for the power supply, clean up all my wiring including the ethernet cable you pointed out, and drill out mount the spoil board, and probably some other things I’m forgetting about.

    This thing turned out to be a project after all lol. I thought since I was buying a almost finished router it would go a lot smoother than it has so far.

    Any way thanks for the info and hopefully in the next week or so I’ll be posting pictures and video of a finished machine.

    Dan



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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    I used the same Ethernet connector and it has worked well.

    David

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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    FWIW, I used Neutrik connectors. They don't use the plastic tab to lock in. They use the metal tab for locking, and have strain relief on the cable vs. the plastic connector. These connectors match the other connectors I used in my build.

    Panel Mount: https://www.amazon.com/Neutrik-NE8FD...8-6&ref=sr_1_6

    Cable Connector Plug: https://www.amazon.com/Neutrik-NE8MC...8-8&ref=sr_1_8

    Gary




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    Default Re: New 2x4 Saturn build

    Thanks guys for the links, I’ll for sure pick up some since I could see it getting pulled out and I don’t want to mess up the board. I got to figure out if either of them will fit the hole I already drilled, if not I’ll just have to make a cover plate. I’ let you guys know what one I get.

    Dan



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