Fanuc system 5M PMC Ladder and mapping recovery + retrofit??

[regina]

Among other projects, I am trying to upgrade a Pratt & Whitney Triax VII NC mill that has a 5M control to a 15MA control and servo system (20S X 3 and 0S X2) from a donor machine that got scrapped here. I was wondering if the 5M had any ladder stored on EPROMS like the Zero does., and if so, what the location of the chips was and what language they were written in. I thought maybe having the old ladder would be a good start on writing the new one. . It is pretty simple machine from an I/0 standpoint.( X,Y,Z, A,B Limit/homing switches, coolant, A, B, Z axis and spindle brake, lube) No tool changer. It will have the standard FS 15 keypad and the FS 0 standard Mill operator panel.I know a ladder will have to be written for the 15. Is there any kind of template or basic ladder that covers these panels what I can build on? I have an inherited pg terminal and I think I have most of the software with it, but this will be the first time trying to write one for a Fanuc. I have a fair amount of experience with Rockwell/Allen Bradley so I have a basic clue of what would be involved, but I think I am going to need help on this for at least this first time. I realize the 15 is overkill for this machine, and that from a "retrofit" standpoint it is a fairly difficult control to configure. I have all the hardware and the well tooled machine on hand, and have the time, so I figure I may as well. l In the end my goal is to have a 5 axis mill with a huge work envelope that is very robust and have as little invested as possible. Also is there anywhere in the non volatile control that might have the ball screw mapping stored that I could recover and reuse? The batteries in the 5m are long dead. Somewhere I may be able to locate some documentation and or the tapes from the machine, but at the moment they are MIA in all our junk. I realize I will likely have to pay someone to help me configure the control and write the ladder since it is my first attempt at such a project. I know there is a lot of knowledge lurking on these boards. I promise to keep sharing it once I have acquired some of it. There are not a lot of people left that know these older Fanucs and are on the internet and I know there are at least 4 or 5 here.

Sorry for such a convoluted post. I just wanted to try and answer all the questions, and warnings before they were asked.

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[memoryman]

The ladder for the 3,5 and 6 were written and programmed on a special device. There are very few of these left.

[regina]

I think I know what you are talking about and I think I have that too. Back in the day my father was an integrator, and had some connections within GN, but by the time I got home from the Navy and became interested, he had retired and forgotten most of what he had known about it.
I'll post a pic of it and of the boards later and see if we can figure it out. I'm still working on downloading that parameter file from the 16A too.

[WGoyer]

As Memoryman said (Hi) the boxes to read the eproms are extremely rare. Also, the 15MA has eproms and are EXTREMELY tedious to program (about one hour for "load, modify, erase, write" cycle). The PMC software version must be EXACTLY the version that goes with 15MA too. The matching eprom / cassette writer and cable is needed too. It would be a labor of love to proceed.
Warren

[regina]

Guess I didn't cover all the warnings. I get that it won't be easy. It is a labor of love, or will be the death of me. My dad and I been accumulating the stuff for this project for years and now am to the point where I think I have most of it, but I lost him last year.
I really feel obligated to finish the project or die trying. I have given up on all the retrofit projects except for this one.
Here is what I am working with:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/802472...57707395697245
I also have some kind of extra ram card that plugs into the yellow box that I think is for the FS15. I may need the exact software for the PG for the 15MA. I may have it. What is it called and version?

[WGoyer]

OK, I see that you have the famed Black Box used for the older controls and you have the tapered front eprom reader/writer. Not sure what PMC version the 15MA uses however. I'd start by firing up the PC Yellow box and seeing what floppys load into it. Another thought crossed my mind - the 15MA an be configured to run without a ladder. That way, you could use a PLC you're familiar with for the ladder. The time savings would be significant. As far as reading the old ladder, I wouldn't bother. Whatever you got wouldn't have labels or comments. Just treat it as a new retrofit.
Warren

[regina]

I kind of figured the ladder would not be of much use. It's a very simple machine and there probably wasn't much there anyway. I just thought it could be a starting point and I was going to pull any relevant E Proms before I got rid of the 5M control parts in case I needed them later. Likewise for the ball screw mapping. If I ever get it done I know I can hire a guy to come out with a laser and redo it, but If I can recover it that would be just one less thing. Is that on a prom or was it just written to RAM and lost?
I considered the ladderless option as it would be so minimal. I have to figure how to tell the control what factory panels I'm using and how they are mapped. That could be just a parameter setting. I have not dug into it yet. I'm getting ahead of myself though. I just wanted to know what chips to save and what was on them. Before the control went away. Anyone need any 5M parts? It's all here and supposedly worked when last ran in 1993. also have the old servo drives and gettys black cap servos on the way out if anyone has ause for those. I thought about calling TIE or radwell, but they would likely only give me pennies for it if they wanted it at all.
I'll add a pic of the software discs I have and see if anyone knows or has what I might need.

[memoryman]

Hi Warren.
Indeed, the 15A does not need a ladder AND it is hard to program.

[regina]

A cursory search says I would Need a disc for the PG that has PMC-NA and the corresponding data library. which does not appear to be here. Anyone have a copy?
I seem to have 5 discs
PMC-I FAPT ladder C data E (a08b-0031-j591/e1)
0B/0C PMC-L FAPT LADDER REV K DATA PMC-L REV M (a08b-0033-j593/e) (a08b-0031-j961)
oma fapt LADDER PMC-L SYSTEM i DATA J No part number
FAPT LADDER PMC I VER c DATA e no part number
and a generic disc hand written PG sn#5000

I have only powered on the PG and got the splash screen. I have no manuals for it and have not figured out how to use it. I definitely could use some guidance.
Maybe we can work together and amass a complete library. Fanuc sure does not have this stuff anymore.

[WGoyer]

Regarding the leadscrew comp, that didn't come until later - the 5M never had it.

[regina]

Thank you WGoyer. That's disappointing, but at least I don't have to worry about finding it. I can check that off the list. If I ever get that far and start making actual parts I'll have to call in "the laser guy" As far as the operator panel (pictured), as long as that is factory fanuc and plug in I/0 with the MR50 plugs, is that just handled by the NC? or does that all have to be mapped and routed through a PLC/PMC? It would be nice if I could get away with not using one at all. I have pretty good documentation on the machine the 15MA came from, but as I am not using that MTB operator panel, nor the huge PLC system that came with it, I'm not sure how much use that will be other than the option parameters. It was a fairly deluxe control.

memoryman, please check the latest email from me for that parameter file for the 16ma we discussed earlier. I finally got it.
I appreciate the help. It's a steep learning curve but I'm willing to put in the effort. I'd consider some formal Fanuc training, but they don't cover any of the older stuff. I'm going to have to learn this stuff the hard way.
I currently have 10TF, 11M (analog), 15MA, 16MA, 16MC, and 0 A,B,C and D controls that I am tinkering with. The 16MA, the 10TF, and the 0B and D are the only ones even half running and attached to the machines. The rest are waiting to find a use. I had other retrofits in mind, but we will see if I still have any of those thoughts after I am done with this.

[WGoyer]

My guess it that there's a default configuration for keyboard, CRT, and basic I/O. Do you agree Memoryman? The connection, description, and maintenance manuals should give you some guidance. I've not integrated one myself, but worked on many Acrolocs that had 11M's without PLC. Their design is very similar. Regarding I/O, the default, non PC arrangement will output M, S, and T codes for the outboard PLC to interpret.

Warren

[memoryman]

You may call me Bill, Warren...
The 15A has a BMI for the 11 as an option bit. The BMI manual is: 61213E
I suggest that your time would be better spent on learning only 1 control for all interfacing. If you want to use Fanuc, a 16iA or 18iA would be my suggestion. They are fairly cheap on Ebay.

[regina]

The newer control numbers make no sense to me. You would think that a higher numbered control would be better, but that is apparently not how it works. Some of the newer controls seem to have even less options than the stuff I already have. Not to mention I am hating these PCR connectors and surface mount miniaturized components.. Would a 16i work with all the S series amps and motors I have? I really don't like the hardware of the newer controls. I would not have the 16A or C, but they happened to be what came with the machines. I hate how all this **** seems to be an intentional mystery by Fanuc. I don't believe that shelling out the many thousands of dollars for all of the official Fanuc maintenance and integrator training, that all in sum would only add up to a few weeks could possibly be sufficient to even be proficient with these controls. Not to mention that their schools are not state certified, and therefore are ineligible for the veterans GI bill. Even still they don't teach anything about the older controls and the extent of their troubleshooting is find bad box, send it in for exchange at a little more than the cost of a new one. That is not how it used to be. I have component level schematics around here for the fanuc 6 stuff.

Anyway this post has totally diverged from it's original intent. I just wanted to know which chips on the 5 contained the ladder (which I still don't know after all of this) and if the ball screw mapping was stored anywhere (Apparently not available on the 5) so I'm batting 500. I have a lot of reading and digesting to do before I even attempt to integrate anything.

[drdos]

The 15 controller has a built in PMC editor. (Keep Relay K17.7) You can make all the edits you need on the screen. You have a PMC writer which you can burn directly from the controller if you have the PMC cassete adaptor board A16B-1212-0182. Just have to modified the ladder to make the machine do what you need it to do.

[regina]

drdos, that sounds like it could be the solution to this problem as fas as the 15 is concerned. Thank you!!! I secured an A16B-1212-0182 from ebay accordingly. I'll dig into the books and see what I can figure out in that respect
As far as potintialy using the PG, I've been reading some Japanese CNC fourms in regard to the PG and the information is somewhat sparse to them as well. I am unsure if PG sofware exists for PMC M and PMC N. Does anyone know if it exists or if that is the point where you had to transition to the software that is used in DOS on a personal computer? If I at least knew the part numbers it would be helpful I found some PC software, but it is not working quite right and the display is screwy within the command prompt window on windows 2000 pro. I am going to make up a dos boot disk and get a non wide screen monitor and see if that clears it up any.