Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase - Page 3


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Thread: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

  1. #41

    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Thank you all for the replies and the info. What I have learned most is that there is no clear or obvious answer haha. I do not know the exact model of the spindle drive currently, I just know it is a Yaskawa G7. The machine is being delivered on Tuesday so I will be sure to post all the additional info and specs when I get them. If I can run the spindle on single phase even at 50% power, that would be great for me to start with. I'm mainly a hobbyist and do not need to be cranking out parts at 90% spindle load (at least right now). I have 90A total available in the garage right now and it will be my only machine running, so running at 60A+ on single phase will be no issue for the time being. I would just love to get it running without having to buy a RPC. I have heard great things about Phase Perfect but realistically I would not be able to justify shelling out the cash for one if I am only doing this for a hobby, so either single phase conversion or RPC will have to work for the time being.

    I will keep you all up to date when the machine is delivered and I'm sure I will have some wiring questions then before I try to hook it up single phase. Maybe we can get a few theories confirmed/questions answered that will help some people down the road that have the same questions.

    And ianagos thanks much for offering your help over the phone, I will DM you my number and definitely take you up on that help once the machine comes.

    Thanks again to all of you for the assistance, I am very new to this forum and you have all been tremendously helpful. I owe you all a beer for sure!



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by hackettindustries View Post
    Thank you all for the replies and the info. What I have learned most is that there is no clear or obvious answer haha. I do not know the exact model of the spindle drive currently, I just know it is a Yaskawa G7. The machine is being delivered on Tuesday so I will be sure to post all the additional info and specs when I get them. If I can run the spindle on single phase even at 50% power, that would be great for me to start with. I'm mainly a hobbyist and do not need to be cranking out parts at 90% spindle load (at least right now). I have 90A total available in the garage right now and it will be my only machine running, so running at 60A+ on single phase will be no issue for the time being. I would just love to get it running without having to buy a RPC. I have heard great things about Phase Perfect but realistically I would not be able to justify shelling out the cash for one if I am only doing this for a hobby, so either single phase conversion or RPC will have to work for the time being.

    I will keep you all up to date when the machine is delivered and I'm sure I will have some wiring questions then before I try to hook it up single phase. Maybe we can get a few theories confirmed/questions answered that will help some people down the road that have the same questions.

    And ianagos thanks much for offering your help over the phone, I will DM you my number and definitely take you up on that help once the machine comes.

    Thanks again to all of you for the assistance, I am very new to this forum and you have all been tremendously helpful. I owe you all a beer for sure!
    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Do you have a Phase Perfect and compared the difference with a RPC the difference is night and day, it has nothing to do with noise it is the power quality and how efficient it they run, they pay for them selves in less than 12 months just in power savings where a RPC just use's up the power $$$

    The part that you are missing is you are not qualified electrician or a electrical engineer to know what you are talking about

    Yes they have it as an option it says in the posted specs as 60A for single phase the part they have not told you is they have derated the spindle motor to be able to run it on 60A supply so the spindle is only around 7.5 Hp to be running on a 60A supply

    I’m out of patience to respond to mactec today but what you said about you are a garage guy and I knew you would never need to push the machine that hard is part of what I was gonna say.

    Send me your number I’ll call you and introduce myself then we can talk about your options and my opinions.

    Also don’t waste your money on a phase perfect I sold single phase vmc15 for almost the same cost and I have another Im gonna sell for about the same cost once I get around to putting it back together.



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by hackettindustries View Post
    Thank you all for the replies and the info. What I have learned most is that there is no clear or obvious answer haha. I do not know the exact model of the spindle drive currently, I just know it is a Yaskawa G7. The machine is being delivered on Tuesday so I will be sure to post all the additional info and specs when I get them. If I can run the spindle on single phase even at 50% power, that would be great for me to start with. I'm mainly a hobbyist and do not need to be cranking out parts at 90% spindle load (at least right now). I have 90A total available in the garage right now and it will be my only machine running, so running at 60A+ on single phase will be no issue for the time being. I would just love to get it running without having to buy a RPC. I have heard great things about Phase Perfect but realistically I would not be able to justify shelling out the cash for one if I am only doing this for a hobby, so either single phase conversion or RPC will have to work for the time being.

    I will keep you all up to date when the machine is delivered and I'm sure I will have some wiring questions then before I try to hook it up single phase. Maybe we can get a few theories confirmed/questions answered that will help some people down the road that have the same questions.

    And ianagos thanks much for offering your help over the phone, I will DM you my number and definitely take you up on that help once the machine comes.

    Thanks again to all of you for the assistance, I am very new to this forum and you have all been tremendously helpful. I owe you all a beer for sure!
    You should be fine with your 90A supply

    So here is what you you need the VFD Drive Model number then from the list below you can see the max input amps for your VFD Drive, this will determine the derating of your motor and then how you will have to protect the VFD Drive from over amp /current draw from the motor, you also need the spec's on the motor name plate

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-vfd-drive-input-amps-yaskawa-g7-png  
    Mactec54


  4. #44

    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Well, overall successful move of the 3016 yesterday! Forklift broke through our 25 year old, way too thin pavement driveway in a couple spots. Pavement only looked to be about 1" thick in some spots and has been resurfaced a million times so I'm not too surprised or upset about it. Will patch it up for now but its a good excuse for a new driveway in the spring

    The spindle motor plate was hard to make out but I saw "230V, 90A" and the spindle drive looks to be the Yaskawa G7 CIMR-G7U20111. T-816 transformer in the box.

    Looking forward to digging into this thing soon! Needs a good cleaning and likely a thrust bearing but it was mainly used for making injection molds as needed on a very intermittent schedule, so I believe it has a lot of life left.

    Thanks again for the help guys, I will shoot you my number Ian and maybe we can connect soon.

    Edit- sorry I don't know why a couple of those images are rotated, they are not like that on my computer

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img-3396-jpg   Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img-3391-jpg   Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img-3413-jpg   Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img-8397-jpg  



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    I have been reading the replies and the banter back and forth by all. I have the Fadal VMC15 XT. I posted about switching my machine from the T817E Transformer to single phase T813. I was told this is the one I would need because I have a DC chassis. My servo motors are DC hence the T812 would not work as that one is for AC servo motors. The machine used to be hooked up to 3phase power. I am in the process of taking the enclosure apart to redo all the paint and clean the machine from ground up. I only have single phase in my shop. I read that the T813 would need 60amps to the transformer, that is not a problem. I do not want to run a phase converter I just want to run the machine on single phase. So I would like to hear from people who have done this swap or have experience with this scenario. From what I have read there is more than one way to skin this cat but I want the right way. Is the T813 the way to go? Fadal used the T813 as a single phase option on the VMC15 from the factory from what I have seen. I also read that I will have perhaps a 30% loss in spindle power but I really don't care about that as I am not going to be taking huge cuts.

    Thanks in advance for all the replies. Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img_1514-jpgFadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img_1515-jpgFadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img_1472-jpgFadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img_1470-jpgFadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img_1469-jpg



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by ballistic42 View Post
    I have been reading the replies and the banter back and forth by all. I have the Fadal VMC15 XT. I posted about switching my machine from the T817E Transformer to single phase T813. I was told this is the one I would need because I have a DC chassis. My servo motors are DC hence the T812 would not work as that one is for AC servo motors. The machine used to be hooked up to 3phase power. I am in the process of taking the enclosure apart to redo all the paint and clean the machine from ground up. I only have single phase in my shop. I read that the T813 would need 60amps to the transformer, that is not a problem. I do not want to run a phase converter I just want to run the machine on single phase. So I would like to hear from people who have done this swap or have experience with this scenario. From what I have read there is more than one way to skin this cat but I want the right way. Is the T813 the way to go? Fadal used the T813 as a single phase option on the VMC15 from the factory from what I have seen. I also read that I will have perhaps a 30% loss in spindle power but I really don't care about that as I am not going to be taking huge cuts.

    Thanks in advance for all the replies. Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img_1514-jpgFadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img_1515-jpgFadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img_1472-jpgFadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img_1470-jpgFadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-img_1469-jpg
    Yes your machine should run fine on 240v single phase 60A is the minimum supply

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by hackettindustries View Post
    Well, overall successful move of the 3016 yesterday! Forklift broke through our 25 year old, way too thin pavement driveway in a couple spots. Pavement only looked to be about 1" thick in some spots and has been resurfaced a million times so I'm not too surprised or upset about it. Will patch it up for now but its a good excuse for a new driveway in the spring

    The spindle motor plate was hard to make out but I saw "230V, 90A" and the spindle drive looks to be the Yaskawa G7 CIMR-G7U20111. T-816 transformer in the box.

    Looking forward to digging into this thing soon! Needs a good cleaning and likely a thrust bearing but it was mainly used for making injection molds as needed on a very intermittent schedule, so I believe it has a lot of life left.

    Thanks again for the help guys, I will shoot you my number Ian and maybe we can connect soon.

    Edit- sorry I don't know why a couple of those images are rotated, they are not like that on my computer
    Your VFD Drive tells you what I was saying it can only have a max input amps of 59A so if your spindle tries to draw it's max amps 90A it will fry the VFD Drive so you will have to set some Parameter's in the VFD Drive to protect it from overload, this will derate your spindle motor

    So this is how it works Motor rated current 90 * 1.73=155.7A for 240v single phase supply, your VFD can only handle 59A so you can see what is going to happen if you don't get your VFD Drive setup correct

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Here is a good example of how it works from 3phase to single phase

    Example:

    An application has a 230 VAC single phase input power source and needs to connect it to a machine that has a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) connected to a 10 Horsepower 230 VAC 3 phase induction motor. Let us assume it has been determined that this application will operate well with a simple Volts per Hertz (V/Hz) VFD. The issue is, since there are no VFD manufacturers that offer a 10 Horsepower (HP) single phase input Variable Frequency Drive (VFD), we will need to de-rate a VFD with a three phase input for single phase input. Most manufacturers of VFDs only offer products up to 3 Horsepower (HP) for single phase input. The 10 Horsepower (HP) AC motor nameplate reveals that the motor is rated for approximately 27 amps at 230 VAC. We must use the equation above:

    VFD Input Current > Motor Current Rating * 1.73
    VFD Input Current > 27 Amps * 1.73
    VFD Input Current > 46.71

    This application will need a 230 VAC 3 phase Volts per Hertz (V/Hz) Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) with an input current rated at or above 47.0 amps.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    VFD Input Current > Motor Current Rating * 1.73
    VFD Input Current > 27 Amps * 1.73
    VFD Input Current > 46.71

    This application will need a 230 VAC 3 phase Volts per Hertz (V/Hz) Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) with an input current rated at or above 47.0 amps.[/QUOTE]

    Mactec, based on what you said that seems right as the Fadal guys said it would take 60amps to run the T813 ele-0201 Transformer that some of the VMC15 XT's came with. The T813 ele-0201 is for running the machine on single phase with a 60amp main.. My whole thing is why not at this point just bypass the Transformer all together and feed the voltage direct to the VFD and not go through a transformer and then have a separate power feed to the DC chassis and other components. I can still feed the 240 vac single phase to the knife on the side just not feed the center 40amp fuse. I know that the AMC drive can be used for single phase as they did it from the Fadal factory on these very machines.

    I am not questioning you just trying to get clarification. I am not looking for or to challenge anyones knowledge just seeing what someone smarter than me knows how to go about this. Maybe just buying the T813 ele-0201 Transformer is the way to go and forget all this other trick stuff.

    Thanks,
    Jeff



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    When I had my VMC 15 in my residential garage. I just by-passed the transformer and basically ran 230v Single phase to the VFD and made sure everything else had 115V. Ran perfectly fine. It's now back in a commercial building with 3 phase so I can't get you the exact details.



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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vertcnc View Post
    When I had my VMC 15 in my residential garage. I just by-passed the transformer and basically ran 230v Single phase to the VFD and made sure everything else had 115V. Ran perfectly fine. It's now back in a commercial building with 3 phase so I can't get you the exact details.
    From looking at the T813 transformer the spindle drive AMC is fed straight from line voltage does not even use a tap off of the transformer. The transformer is really just used to feed the 120vac to the circuit boards. I am going to feed the spindle drive with a 50amp breaker and then feed another 120vac 20amp line into the cabinet and break it down into a distribution block. I will keep the transformer but going to take it out and store it. In its place I will put a din rail in and the circuit breakers and distribution blocks. The only thing I am wondering is, on the T813 diagram it shows 91vac going to the amp chassis. On my machine though the board is printed and shows 120vac to the DC amp chassis.



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by ballistic42 View Post
    From looking at the T813 transformer the spindle drive AMC is fed straight from line voltage does not even use a tap off of the transformer. The transformer is really just used to feed the 120vac to the circuit boards. I am going to feed the spindle drive with a 50amp breaker and then feed another 120vac 20amp line into the cabinet and break it down into a distribution block. I will keep the transformer but going to take it out and store it. In its place I will put a din rail in and the circuit breakers and distribution blocks. The only thing I am wondering is, on the T813 diagram it shows 91vac going to the amp chassis. On my machine though the board is printed and shows 120vac to the DC amp chassis.
    Just as I said in early posts, I find it would be highly unusual for the VFD Drive to be wired through a Transformer, some use a reactor and Power Filters but normally are direct wired from a Contactor and Breaker sized correct for the VFD Drive

    If your machine has a Transformer that you can use, leave it in place this gives your low voltage supply better protection than using straight line supply voltage

    No for you to connect your machine you can only use one supply ( 1 ) Ground connection so do a 60Amp Main Breaker you will create a Ground loop if you use to separate Power feeds supplies to your machine

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Just as I said in early posts, I find it would be highly unusual for the VFD Drive to be wired through a Transformer, some use a reactor and Power Filters but normally are direct wired from a Contactor and Breaker sized correct for the VFD Drive

    If your machine has a Transformer that you can use, leave it in place this gives your low voltage supply better protection than using straight line supply voltage

    No for you to connect your machine you can only use one supply ( 1 ) Ground connection so do a 60Amp Main Breaker you will create a Ground loop if you use to separate Power feeds supplies to your machine
    I actually very much agree with everything said here except the VFD through transformer. All cnc machines I have owned and worked on have a large transformer before the VFD.


    Like I said it could be done without the transformer but why? There is no reason for you to remove it unless you just want to do more work. There are actually reasons why it’s better to keep in place.



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by ianagos View Post
    I actually very much agree with everything said here except the VFD through transformer. All cnc machines I have owned and worked on have a large transformer before the VFD.


    Like I said it could be done without the transformer but why? There is no reason for you to remove it unless you just want to do more work. There are actually reasons why it’s better to keep in place.
    You may be confused between a Line Reactor and a Transformer a Reactor is what is normally used before a VFD Drive and is normally a must have for all commercially manufactured machines using VFD Drives

    There are some things that can be good by supply power going through a Transformer for a VFD Drive, this can help with Harmonics, in a noisy environment, this is normally done though with a line Reactor which looks similar to a Transformer

    And as ballistic42 posted his Fadal goes direct to the VFD Drive

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You may be confused between a Line Reactor and a Transformer a Reactor is what is normally used before a VFD Drive and is normally a must have for all commercially manufactured machines using VFD Drives

    There are some things that can be good by supply power going through a Transformer for a VFD Drive, this can help with Harmonics, in a noisy environment, this is normally done though with a line Reactor which looks similar to a Transformer

    And as ballistic42 posted his Fadal goes direct to the VFD Drive
    No his doesn’t I have pictures. And look man I’m just talking about large industrial cnc machines.


    The colored green are the VFD input lines. The other colors are the rest of the transformer outputs.

    The transformer input is on the top Terminal blocks



    Also mactec I know what a Transformer is. My Mazak had one and so have all my fadals. I’m not talking about low end machines I’m talking about higher end equipment and real comercial machining centers.



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by ianagos View Post
    No his doesn’t I have pictures. And look man I’m just talking about large industrial cnc machines.


    The colored green are the VFD input lines. The other colors are the rest of the transformer outputs.

    The transformer input is on the top Terminal blocks



    Also mactec I know what a Transformer is. My Mazak had one and so have all my fadals. I’m not talking about low end machines I’m talking about higher end equipment and real comercial machining centers.
    As I said before Different machines same manufacture have different wiring not all model machines are the same

    A Reactor and a Transformer look the same so just by looking if you are not a industrial Electrician, you could not tell the difference, there is nothing wrong with them using a Transformer it is just not the always norm for VFD Drive inputs, I would not call these machines you listed high end machines they are just average machines I have had them also and also repaired many of them

    No one has any doubt that your machine has a Transformer ?? although you did not post a photo of it, no one needs to see the terminals

    Mactec54


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    Default Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    As I said before Different machines same manufacture have different wiring not all model machines are the same

    A Reactor and a Transformer look the same so just by looking if you are not a industrial Electrician, you could not tell the difference, there is nothing wrong with them using a Transformer it is just not the always norm for VFD Drive inputs, I would not call these machines you listed high end machines they are just average machines I have had them also and also repaired many of them

    No one has any doubt that your machine has a Transformer ?? although you did not post a photo of it, no one needs to see the terminals
    Sorry that’s a picture of the transformer in his machine not mine. But mine has one too as so many other machining centers. I’m gonna guess you don’t have experience with too many of them.

    I’ve also never seen a line reactor that allows you to tap for different input voltages but maybe it’s out there.

    And here is the schematic for the transformer that you seem to believe I am making up please note the top is the input with taps and the bottom are the outputs like I said earlier.




    Mactec you seem like a smart guy and I’m just telling you what I’ve come across. My experience is only with machining centers and not other types of equipment. I also don’t have much experience in the hobby level stuff I typically only know the more industrial cnc machines. Brands I’ve worked on include Doosan, Mazak, Fadal, Haas, Clausing, Lagun, and a few more. I’ve owned all those brands except haas and doosan.

    Now these are all commodity brand machine and not super high end like a grob or something like that. But most of them gave had transformers or had that as an option from the factory.

    The one that I owned that did not have a large transformer was the Clausing lathe storm 300. It had only small transformer or possibly line reactors I didn’t look too hard as that didn’t matter and the machine worked fine.



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by ballistic42 View Post
    From looking at the T813 transformer the spindle drive AMC is fed straight from line voltage does not even use a tap off of the transformer. The transformer is really just used to feed the 120vac to the circuit boards. I am going to feed the spindle drive with a 50amp breaker and then feed another 120vac 20amp line into the cabinet and break it down into a distribution block. I will keep the transformer but going to take it out and store it. In its place I will put a din rail in and the circuit breakers and distribution blocks. The only thing I am wondering is, on the T813 diagram it shows 91vac going to the amp chassis. On my machine though the board is printed and shows 120vac to the DC amp chassis.
    I just left the transformer in cabinet and used the terminal strip and re routed the wires so 1 leg of the 200v and neutral feed the drives and computer circuit. Wish I would have taken pictures when I did it.



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by ianagos View Post
    Sorry that’s a picture of the transformer in his machine not mine. But mine has one too as so many other machining centers. I’m gonna guess you don’t have experience with too many of them.

    I’ve also never seen a line reactor that allows you to tap for different input voltages but maybe it’s out there.

    And here is the schematic for the transformer that you seem to believe I am making up please note the top is the input with taps and the bottom are the outputs like I said earlier.




    Mactec you seem like a smart guy and I’m just telling you what I’ve come across. My experience is only with machining centers and not other types of equipment. I also don’t have much experience in the hobby level stuff I typically only know the more industrial cnc machines. Brands I’ve worked on include Doosan, Mazak, Fadal, Haas, Clausing, Lagun, and a few more. I’ve owned all those brands except haas and doosan.

    Now these are all commodity brand machine and not super high end like a grob or something like that. But most of them gave had transformers or had that as an option from the factory.

    The one that I owned that did not have a large transformer was the Clausing lathe storm 300. It had only small transformer or possibly line reactors I didn’t look too hard as that didn’t matter and the machine worked fine.
    Correct anything that has taps for other voltages is a Transformer nobody questioned that, I have a degree in electrical engineering so you can't tell me much about machines especially CNC machines, I also repair VFD Drives so know the best practices for there install, Transformers are fine but cheaper Reactors are normally used sometimes with a Power Filters or a combination of both, For EMI compliant VFD Drive installs, all they are doing is utilizing the one Transformer to do everything which is not always a good idea



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by ianagos View Post
    Sorry that’s a picture of the transformer in his machine not mine. But mine has one too as so many other machining centers.
    So here is the reason they need to have a Transformer there is always a reason electrical engineers design things the way they do

    The Fadal requires the incoming voltage to be with in a controlled voltage for there VFD Drives they are using this is so it will not fail from over voltage, from the Fadal spec's I found these specs for the reasons why

    The spindle inverter must have incoming voltage between 190VAC and 240VAC MAX. If you
    underrate the voltage or push above 240VAC you are asking for an early failure. The amplifier
    chassis is not quite as critical, but under voltage is a real
    problem. It causes the amplifiers to push additional
    current to make up for the under voltage condition and
    can keep the amps in a redline situation; and that's never
    good.

    So the normal NA supply in most areas is 245v and can be higher so if you direct wired to a Fadal CNC machine that was using a Fadal VFD Drive it would not last very long without voltage regulation

    So for those that are doing a single Phase connection and your machine has the Fadal VFD Drive than you will need to protect the VFD Drive form over Voltage or it will fail if you have a direct connected 240v Power supply using L1 / L2

    Last edited by mactec54; 12-15-2020 at 12:09 PM. Reason: added more
    Mactec54


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