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Thread: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by hackettindustries View Post
    Thanks for the info! I just skimmed the documentation and didn't see anything about it being able to run single phase. Just don't want to break anything haha. So for the transformers, I don't even need to purchase the Fadal "single phase" transformer? I have clean 240v coming into my garage right now. It is right on 240. Do you have any steps to follow to get the machine running on 240v single phase? Do I even need the existing transformer or is it best to bypass it? Thanks again!
    Yes you are not going to find this in any 3Ph drive manual

    I did not say, but if your spindle motor is over 7.5Hp then you are not going to be running on single phase, so check this before you start

    You can by pass the Transformer for the VFD Drive if it is not all ready, most machines would not be powering the VFD Drive through a Transformer this would not be normal, the Transformer is for the Drives Etc.

    You still may need the transformer for the drives X Y Z axis I don't know what your voltage requirement's are for the Drives if you have a DC machine

    Mactec54


  2. #22

    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Yes you are not going to find this in any 3Ph drive manual

    I did not say, but if your spindle motor is over 7.5Hp then you are not going to be running on single phase, so check this before you start

    You can by pass the Transformer for the VFD Drive if it is not all ready, most machines would not be powering the VFD Drive through a Transformer this would not be normal, the Transformer is for the Drives Etc.

    You still may need the transformer for the drives X Y Z axis I don't know what your voltage requirement's are for the Drives if you have a DC machine
    The 3016 spindle is 15 HP, but on their spec sheet which I attached it says the 3016 still has a single phase option. So for that single phase option, do you think they just used a spindle drive that was designed to have a single phase input?

    Just trying to determine if I need to shell out the cash for a RPC or not. I would really like to run on single phase but it is really confusing trying to figure out how the single phase conversion works. I found tons of threads on the same topic from the past 10 years but have not found a single one that answers these questions about the spindle drive and transformer and which variations will actually work on single phase.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase-3016_specs-jpg  


  3. #23
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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Yes you are not going to find this in any 3Ph drive manual

    I did not say, but if your spindle motor is over 7.5Hp then you are not going to be running on single phase, so check this before you start

    You can by pass the Transformer for the VFD Drive if it is not all ready, most machines would not be powering the VFD Drive through a Transformer this would not be normal, the Transformer is for the Drives Etc.

    You still may need the transformer for the drives X Y Z axis I don't know what your voltage requirement's are for the Drives if you have a DC machine
    Ok só the way fadals work is everything goes through the transformer normally especially the spindle drive. For some reason especially the amc drives are very sensitive to over voltage and anything over 250v will take them out in short order. So vfd through transformer on his machine is 100% normal.

    Both of the fadals I had that were single phase were the 10hp continuous models otherwise advertised as 15hp.

    If you have a 3016ht that means it has the high torque option which can still be run of single phase but you are pushing your luck as it has a 15hp continuous motor advertised as 22.5hp

    Now if it just a 3016 or 3016L you have the smaller motor.

    So I said once again if you need help contact me via pm and we can talk on the phone. Then I can explain more thoroughly.



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by ianagos View Post
    Ok só the way fadals work is everything goes through the transformer normally especially the spindle drive. For some reason especially the amc drives are very sensitive to over voltage and anything over 250v will take them out in short order. So vfd through transformer on his machine is 100% normal.

    Both of the fadals I had that were single phase were the 10hp continuous models otherwise advertised as 15hp.

    If you have a 3016ht that means it has the high torque option which can still be run of single phase but you are pushing your luck as it has a 15hp continuous motor advertised as 22.5hp

    Now if it just a 3016 or 3016L you have the smaller motor.

    So I said once again if you need help contact me via pm and we can talk on the phone. Then I can explain more thoroughly.
    That is a ridiculous statement you are not going to run any CNC machine with more that 7.5 Hp on single phase supply L1 and L2, above this Hp you would have to have / use a Phase converter or 3 phase power supply

    The Fadal VMC15 is the machine we are talking about which can run on single phase just using L1 and L2 single phase supply

    Mactec54


  5. #25

    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by ianagos View Post
    Ok só the way fadals work is everything goes through the transformer normally especially the spindle drive. For some reason especially the amc drives are very sensitive to over voltage and anything over 250v will take them out in short order. So vfd through transformer on his machine is 100% normal.

    Both of the fadals I had that were single phase were the 10hp continuous models otherwise advertised as 15hp.

    If you have a 3016ht that means it has the high torque option which can still be run of single phase but you are pushing your luck as it has a 15hp continuous motor advertised as 22.5hp

    Now if it just a 3016 or 3016L you have the smaller motor.

    So I said once again if you need help contact me via pm and we can talk on the phone. Then I can explain more thoroughly.
    Awesome thank you very much for the info. It is just a 3016, and you are right, 10HP with 15HP peak I believe is what it is rated.

    The machine has DC servos. Looking at the T-813 transformer which is used for the single phase conversion with DC servos, it looks like it is giving 91VAC to the axis amps. Not sure if you can pull 91VAC from the original T-816 transformer.

    So, you believe I can run the Yaskawa G7 spindle drive on single phase?

    Do you think this transformer on ebay is the same T-813 transformer that Fadal uses? I tried to get a datasheet to compare but I can't get one to find out what the actual specs are on the T-813, so I don't understand what it is even doing.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-250-KVA-...3/261362938887

    Attached is the only diagram I have found for the T-813. Thank you all for such great help.

    Attached Files Attached Files


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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    That is a ridiculous statement you are not going to run any CNC machine with more that 7.5 Hp on single phase supply L1 and L2, above this Hp you would have to have / use a Phase converter or 3 phase power supply

    The Fadal VMC15 is the machine we are talking about which can run on single phase just using L1 and L2 single phase supply
    Ok man think what you will I’ve done it.

    The fadal factory has done it.

    Haas does it.

    It’s possible. Of course the motors run at reduced peak capacity but they run. If you don’t believe me come to my shop next spring I’ll be converting another vmc15 to single phase. Or scrapping it I’ve not decided yet



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by hackettindustries View Post
    So, you believe I can run the Yaskawa G7 spindle drive on single phase?
    Yes, but de-rated by 50%

    Is this your VFD manual? look at page 37 of 162
    http://www.tecdriver.com.br/arquivos...0E%20V7-4X.pdf

    ...more links that may help or confuse you more
    https://itscnc.com/media/documents/Transformers.pdf

    https://www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/t...Procedures.pdf

    https://flintmachine.com/images/uplo..._and_Motor.pdf

    DJ



  8. #28

    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by machinehop5 View Post
    Hmm... 50% is more significant than I thought.

    I have actually seen all those links before and think they did end up confusing me more, hah!

    Kinda leaning toward building/buying a RPC as it'd be about the same price as the transformer and I know the machine is currently turn key if I had a three phase input.

    With a 15HP RPC, I should be able to utilize just about all the machine's power, right?

    Thanks again for the help!



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Do what you will you probably will not notice the derating of the power. You don’t need a special transformer if you are comfortable changing taps on it.

    I’ve never seen a single phase machine with a yaskawa drive though but it wouldn’t cost you anything to try it.

    If you go for a converter I run a American rotary ad30 for a high torque machine with larger ac servos etc. an ad20 will probably do you ok.



  10. #30

    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by ianagos View Post
    Do what you will you probably will not notice the derating of the power. You don’t need a special transformer if you are comfortable changing taps on it.

    I’ve never seen a single phase machine with a yaskawa drive though but it wouldn’t cost you anything to try it.

    If you go for a converter I run a American rotary ad30 for a high torque machine with larger ac servos etc. an ad20 will probably do you ok.
    I think I may try to (safely) play around with the transformer not hooked up to anything and see what kind of voltages I can pull from it. It would be very nice to not have to buy a phase converter if I think I can hook everything up and not fry any electronics. So since I have 240v, my current "phases" are exactly 180 degrees out of phase. Does either the standard 3 phase or single phase transformer do anything about shifting phases? I'm trying to understand how a rotary phase converter would generate a third leg and would all be 120 degrees apart if I have 240 (single phase, 180 degrees apart), compared to 208 (single phase, 120 degrees apart).

    Sorry for so many questions, I'm very new to these machines and want to make sure I'm confident the first time I plug it in!

    Edit: Here is the spindle drive I believe my machine has: https://www.fadalcnc.com/index.php/inv-0077.html
    I attached the documentation from the spindle drive as well. I emailed FadalCNC asking if it could do single phase and they said no, but they may just want to sell my a new drive. I noticed that documentation does not mention anything about single phase being an option, unlike that other Yaskawa manual.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by hackettindustries; 11-20-2020 at 02:04 PM.


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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by hackettindustries View Post
    I think I may try to (safely) play around with the transformer not hooked up to anything and see what kind of voltages I can pull from it. It would be very nice to not have to buy a phase converter if I think I can hook everything up and not fry any electronics. So since I have 240v, my current "phases" are exactly 180 degrees out of phase. Does either the standard 3 phase or single phase transformer do anything about shifting phases? I'm trying to understand how a rotary phase converter would generate a third leg and would all be 120 degrees apart if I have 240 (single phase, 180 degrees apart), compared to 208 (single phase, 120 degrees apart).

    Sorry for so many questions, I'm very new to these machines and want to make sure I'm confident the first time I plug it in!

    Edit: Here is the spindle drive I believe my machine has: https://www.fadalcnc.com/index.php/inv-0077.html
    I attached the documentation from the spindle drive as well. I emailed FadalCNC asking if it could do single phase and they said no, but they may just want to sell my a new drive. I noticed that documentation does not mention anything about single phase being an option, unlike that other Yaskawa manual.
    No experience with the yaskawa drives on fadal except I’ve heard to stay away from them.

    And the transformer do nothing to change the degree of the phases it’s just that the only thing is a fadal that requires 3 phases is the inverter and realistically all that inverter does is converts that into dc voltage that it stores in big capacities then changes back into ac. That’s why vfds can take single phase input and output three phase.

    Typically the limitation is that for the same amount of power you will need more amperage in single phase vs 3 phase. So the inverters will only input so many amps and that’s the limiting factor.

    Send me a pm with your phone so I can call you. I can explain a lot more that way



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by hackettindustries View Post
    I think I may try to (safely) play around with the transformer not hooked up to anything and see what kind of voltages I can pull from it. It would be very nice to not have to buy a phase converter if I think I can hook everything up and not fry any electronics. So since I have 240v, my current "phases" are exactly 180 degrees out of phase. Does either the standard 3 phase or single phase transformer do anything about shifting phases? I'm trying to understand how a rotary phase converter would generate a third leg and would all be 120 degrees apart if I have 240 (single phase, 180 degrees apart), compared to 208 (single phase, 120 degrees apart).

    Sorry for so many questions, I'm very new to these machines and want to make sure I'm confident the first time I plug it in!

    Edit: Here is the spindle drive I believe my machine has: https://www.fadalcnc.com/index.php/inv-0077.html
    I attached the documentation from the spindle drive as well. I emailed FadalCNC asking if it could do single phase and they said no, but they may just want to sell my a new drive. I noticed that documentation does not mention anything about single phase being an option, unlike that other Yaskawa manual.
    What is the model number of your VFD Drive ???

    A RPC 240v single phase supply input starts a 3Phase motor, this motor generates the 3rd leg called the wild leg, which is never very well regulated hence the name wild leg, your 240v input is unchanged ,so if you have a 5Hp motor to run, then you would need a 10Hp RPC to run it

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by ianagos View Post
    No experience with the yaskawa drives on fadal except I’ve heard to stay away from them.
    Yaskawa are the Worlds number ( 1 ) in VFD Drives sold as well as reliability, anyone that says to stay away from them don't no what they are talking about

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by hackettindustries View Post
    Awesome thank you very much for the info. It is just a 3016, and you are right, 10HP with 15HP peak I believe is what it is rated..
    You will need a Phase converter to run this size machine, to be twice the size of your max machine spindle motor rating, this is very inefficient to run a machine like this there are other phase converters that are much better if you have the money to buy them look up Phase Perfect https://www.phasetechnologies.com/pr.../phase-perfect I have one of these for my 3ph power supply and have 100A available of 3Phase power, these are over 98% efficient as with a RPC is around 38%


    Quote Originally Posted by hackettindustries View Post
    So, you believe I can run the Yaskawa G7 spindle drive on single phase?.
    No because you are over the 7.5 Hp max for direct single phase supply

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Ok so phase perfects are not worth the money in my opinion. Rotary is half the price and the same noise or quieter. And I know mactec is saying you can’t run it off single phase but just try it (obviously he is missing the part that it was a factory option).

    I know it will work with glentek,amc, and some baldor drives no problem. The yaskawa is just the unknown variable. They are the least common drive on fadals.

    I bet it’s highly likely that you’ll be fine. And in the time I’ve spent writing these messages I could have already hooked up you machine and seen if it would work.



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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by hackettindustries View Post
    The 3016 spindle is 15 HP, but on their spec sheet which I attached it says the 3016 still has a single phase option. So for that single phase option, do you think they just used a spindle drive that was designed to have a single phase input?

    Just trying to determine if I need to shell out the cash for a RPC or not. I would really like to run on single phase but it is really confusing trying to figure out how the single phase conversion works. I found tons of threads on the same topic from the past 10 years but have not found a single one that answers these questions about the spindle drive and transformer and which variations will actually work on single phase.
    It would be at the limits for everything mainly the VFD Drive the rest of your machine would run just fine on Single Phase

    The single phase option is saying in your list, that you need a 60A supply if that is the case then they have derated the spindle motor, most likely by 40%

    Just for your spindle motor you would need 64 amps to run it on Single Phase 240v plus the start up full load amps which will be way more than this, your VFD Drive will have an Input Amp rating and you can not go above that so I doubt that it has this rating

    Post the VFD model number and I will check to see if it can handle the max amps you need to run your spindle motor

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by ianagos View Post
    Ok so phase perfects are not worth the money in my opinion. Rotary is half the price and the same noise or quieter. And I know mactec is saying you can’t run it off single phase but just try it (obviously he is missing the part that it was a factory option).

    I know it will work with glentek,amc, and some baldor drives no problem. The yaskawa is just the unknown variable. They are the least common drive on fadals.

    I bet it’s highly likely that you’ll be fine. And in the time I’ve spent writing these messages I could have already hooked up you machine and seen if it would work.
    Do you have a Phase Perfect and compared the difference with a RPC the difference is night and day, it has nothing to do with noise it is the power quality and how efficient it they run, they pay for them selves in less than 12 months just in power savings where a RPC just use's up the power $$$

    The part that you are missing is you are not qualified electrician or a electrical engineer to know what you are talking about

    Yes they have it as an option it says in the posted specs as 60A for single phase the part they have not told you is they have derated the spindle motor to be able to run it on 60A supply so the spindle is only around 7.5 Hp to be running on a 60A supply

    Mactec54


  18. #38
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Do you have a Phase Perfect and compared the difference with a RPC the difference is night and day, it has nothing to do with noise it is the power quality and how efficient it they run, they pay for them selves in less than 12 months just in power savings where a RPC just use's up the power $$$
    A RPC can be made to run as efficient and as well balanced as a Phase Perfect, you just need to engineer it and match it to the load correctly.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    A RPC can be made to run as efficient and as well balanced as a Phase Perfect, you just need to engineer it and match it to the load correctly.
    Dreaming anyone can do, physics are real Jim, an RPC can never be efficient you are running a 15Hp or 30Hp motor the power it uses to keep it running is total loss, you can not magically change that, it also uses extra energy to power the 3rd leg when working under load, this is all energy loss

    98.7 % with a Phase Perfect is better than what you can get from most direct 3Ph power supplies and costs you less per Kw than having a commercial 3Ph power supply

    Mactec54


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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fadal VMC15 XT 3 Phase to single phase

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Dreaming anyone can do, physics are real Jim, an RPC can never be efficient you are running a 15Hp or 30Hp motor the power it uses to keep it running is total loss, you can not magically change that, it also uses extra energy to power the 3rd leg when working under load, this is all energy loss

    Yes physics are real, and you can use physics to your advantage. From an efficiency standpoint the only thing I care about is what my power meter sees. As long as the wiring is sized to handle the true power, then you can play with the apparent power by using power factor ''correction'' capacitors to create an LC resonant network. Residential and many smaller single phase commercial power meters read apparent power, unlike most 3 phase commercial or industrial metering that take the power factor into account from which true power is calculated and billed.

    Thus there is true efficiency and apparent efficiency, and what I care about is apparent ''efficiency''.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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