Can you raise the Z axis ???


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Thread: Can you raise the Z axis ???

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    Question Can you raise the Z axis ???

    I have a 4525 with standard Z axis travel .... the machine was supposed to have extended Z but when it arrived it was obviously standard. Due to the logistics and cost of getting the machine here I couldn't do much about it ... so I have been using it as is.
    However its got to the point that the lack of head room at maximum Z height creates lots of headaches ... so I am considering machining some 4" spacer blocks to put between the column and the base ... as the cost and hassle of imported an entire column makes it a non viable option. The lack of minimum Z wouldn't worry me as I rarely get anywhere near the lower limit anyway and I could always use extended length tool holders if need be.

    I have studied the layout of things and can't foresee any major problems .... cables, air lines etc that run up the column appear long enough .... tool changer is attached to the column and will raise with it ..... the holes in the rear wall will need re-drilled 4" higher etc etc. The biggest "problem" appears to be the rear of the Y axis way covers that bolt to the column, would need extended so they still reach the column.

    Has anyone tried doing this ?? Is there any potential problems that I haven't considered ??

    Thoughts and comments appreciated.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Can you raise the Z axis ???

    Cfin, it sounds like you have done your homework on this project. I have never seen anyone do this before but it sounds like it might work. You will need to replace your ballscrew for the extra travel and the Z axis way cover so you have enough room to run 28". You will also need this new travel to be changed in the parameters so the machine knows it has a 28" Z. We have all the parts you need for the machine, so it is works, please let me know the details and we can help another person in the future.

    FadalCNC.com Tech Support



  3. #3

    Default Re: Can you raise the Z axis ???

    Yes the Y axis cover will have to be modified or repositioned.

    The only issue you may run into is that at the factory When we squared up the Column in the Base in the column department. They used a Liquid steel(i forget the official name of the stuff) but that was applied to the base and column. Which wouldn't be no big deal if the surfaces were just Flat. But when the Base and column were machined we Machined Dimples centered between the mounting holes on the base and column. So to basically Cleat or grip or keep positioned the column to the base after the "epoxy" cured. Now if i remember correctly we put a releasing agent on the column so if ever needed you could lift the column if needed. So if you make risers i would drill dimples in the risers inbetween each mounting hole 1 inch or 24.5mm drill point. to clear the dimples or cleats that are there. if you look on the inside of the column where it mounts to the base you will probably see the "gray epoxy" maybe if the didn't clean it off perfectly.

    But yes you can put a 4" riser between the colmn and base.

    Good luck



  4. #4

    Default Re: Can you raise the Z axis ???

    He's doing a Riser not changing the column, changing the column would be a time to buy anew machine moment



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    Default Re: Can you raise the Z axis ???

    That is good information Rodney .... and yes I did notice a little grey epoxy sitting on the rear of the column's mating surface. I thought it was just some grey silicon sealer but if its liquid metal it may take quite a bit of force to break the bond if the releasing agent is NOT on the column end !!!

    The dimple/s were an interesting method of giving you some setup adjustment, I was thinking that would be done by the rear leveling screws on the base. The setup manual mentions adjusting them for column adjustment but I guess that refers to "fine" adjustments?

    You no doubt fitted the columns bare (without head and tool changer) and my intention is to remove part of the buildings roof and crane lift the complete column (loaded) enough to get the spacers in. Would you have an idea on what the total weight might be (24 slot t/changer - 30hp HT) ???? I was thinking probably around 2 tons ...



  6. #6

    Default Re: Can you raise the Z axis ???

    A 4525 weighs around 13,500 lbs Total........ A 4525 column by itself is pretty heavy 3500-4000 lbs, the toolchanger prolly weighs 1000-1500 lbs and the head and all the other doodads attached weigh another 1000-1500lbs. So on the light side your looking at 5500lbs on the heavy 7000lbs. So be safe do not underestimate . and good luck



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    Default Re: Can you raise the Z axis ???

    Great ... thank you for that, at least I know what to expect. Will let the forum know how it goes but I'm probably a month away from doing it at this stage



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    Default Re: Can you raise the Z axis ???

    I say go for it. The Fadals are so easy to work on and Rodney is a massive source of support. He helped me rebuild my Z axis head and I forever greatful for his generosity and knowledge.

    I just bought two more Fadals which shows how much I trust the machines.



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    Default Re: Can you raise the Z axis ???

    Did it decades ago with a Matsuura. We made a weldment with the shape of the column base. Then had it stress relieved and ground flat. Still needed a bit of scraping to get the z axis perfectly square. Might be able to avoid this with jack screws and epoxy.
    My $0.02 (US)



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    Default Re: Can you raise the Z axis ???

    UPDATE: Finally got around to attempting this job, having got some 4" iron risers blocks cast 6 months ago. I machined the blocks and drilled the bolt holes, then sent them out to get surface ground ... in an effort to have them identical. I planned to lift some of the roof off above the machine and getting a small crane in to do the lifting, but then thought I would try lifting it with two squat jacks.... which worked brilliantly.

    I removed the bolts that attach the rear sheet metal covers to the column, the Y axis slide cover to column and the tool changers cover plate that bolts to the rear wall. I had to cut a small section of sheet metal off directly above the tool changer, as the changer is attached to, and raises with, the Z axis column .... but the sheet metal box of course stays in its original location. I also removed a cover on top of the electronics cabinet, that covers the wiring going to the operator pendant, so I could keep an eye on wiring getting snagged. Thats about it as far as preparation goes. I was going to remove the Y axis motor so I could position the jacks under the center of the Z column but the jacks were short enough to fit either side of that motor, so I left it mounted on the base.

    I then put some wood blocks on the table and another jack on top on them ... to help balance/control the weight of the head and tool changer. But this proved to be unnecessary and once the column started rising, I removed that jack. I removed the original column to base bolts one at a time and replaced them with the 4" longer bolts, positioned the jacks under column's inner casting (the casting closest to the table), put some wedges on top of the jacks on one side, as the underside of the column is not flat ... and started jacking.
    Much to my surprise the column parted and lifted easily, it rose virtually straight up (hence not needing the third jack under the head), the longer bolts keeping things straight as it went. I raised it an inch at a time, putting some 1" blocks between column and base at each stage, so I could go check that nothing was getting caught up It didn't take long to get it up the 4" needed, then removed the column bolts on one side, slipped in the riser block on that side and put the bolts back in .... then repeated the process on the other side of the column.
    There was epoxy between base and column but it remained in place though-out the process, plus two 0.001" shims that the factory had put in there. I did not need to "dimple" the riser blocks .... if there was a dimple on the columns mounting face, the epoxy had covered it, so both column and base surfaces were flush.

    So all in all .... it was ridiculously easy to do. The only "problem" I encountered was a small sensor cable (upper column limit sensor I think) that had been tucked down between the box sheet metal and the electronics cabinet, but I spotted it was getting caught before it damaged it. Now I just need to add 4" to the Y axis way cover mount and re-drill the holes for the rear box sheet metal to column bolts which unfortunately I may have to remove those rear panels to do that and move the Z axis CS indicator..... plus do some checks that everything is straight and plum ....probably the biggest part of the job !!

    The strangest part about it all is the fact that both rear cabinets are now 4" higher and will have to re-train myself to the power lever and start buttons new positions !!



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    Default Re: Can you raise the Z axis ???

    Just one little thing to watch out for when adding to the Y axis way cover. The risers I had cast were simple rectangular blocks, which worked fine, but the Z axis column tapers towards the center immediately above where it mounts to the base. I traced the original way covers mounting plate profile and hole locations onto a piece of stainless and welded it to the top of the original. After drill/taping the riser blocks to suit the outer holes and bolting it up .... I realized it left a small gap around 3/4" wide between the base and new riser blocks ....so coolant and chips could get thru onto the base block. I didn't want to weld on the machine itself and it takes awhile to unbolt and get the cover out, so I epoxied a small filler plate on both sides to block the gap off.

    Just a minor thing, but if anyone else wants to do this it would be a good idea to weld those filler plates onto the mounting plate whilst its out ... for a neater job.



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    Default Re: Can you raise the Z axis ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Cfin View Post
    UPDATE: Finally got around to attempting this job, having got some 4" iron risers blocks cast 6 months ago. I machined the blocks and drilled the bolt holes, then sent them out to get surface ground ... in an effort to have them identical. I planned to lift some of the roof off above the machine and getting a small crane in to do the lifting, but then thought I would try lifting it with two squat jacks.... which worked brilliantly.

    I removed the bolts that attach the rear sheet metal covers to the column, the Y axis slide cover to column and the tool changers cover plate that bolts to the rear wall. I had to cut a small section of sheet metal off directly above the tool changer, as the changer is attached to, and raises with, the Z axis column .... but the sheet metal box of course stays in its original location. I also removed a cover on top of the electronics cabinet, that covers the wiring going to the operator pendant, so I could keep an eye on wiring getting snagged. Thats about it as far as preparation goes. I was going to remove the Y axis motor so I could position the jacks under the center of the Z column but the jacks were short enough to fit either side of that motor, so I left it mounted on the base.

    I then put some wood blocks on the table and another jack on top on them ... to help balance/control the weight of the head and tool changer. But this proved to be unnecessary and once the column started rising, I removed that jack. I removed the original column to base bolts one at a time and replaced them with the 4" longer bolts, positioned the jacks under column's inner casting (the casting closest to the table), put some wedges on top of the jacks on one side, as the underside of the column is not flat ... and started jacking.
    Much to my surprise the column parted and lifted easily, it rose virtually straight up (hence not needing the third jack under the head), the longer bolts keeping things straight as it went. I raised it an inch at a time, putting some 1" blocks between column and base at each stage, so I could go check that nothing was getting caught up It didn't take long to get it up the 4" needed, then removed the column bolts on one side, slipped in the riser block on that side and put the bolts back in .... then repeated the process on the other side of the column.
    There was epoxy between base and column but it remained in place though-out the process, plus two 0.001" shims that the factory had put in there. I did not need to "dimple" the riser blocks .... if there was a dimple on the columns mounting face, the epoxy had covered it, so both column and base surfaces were flush.

    So all in all .... it was ridiculously easy to do. The only "problem" I encountered was a small sensor cable (upper column limit sensor I think) that had been tucked down between the box sheet metal and the electronics cabinet, but I spotted it was getting caught before it damaged it. Now I just need to add 4" to the Y axis way cover mount and re-drill the holes for the rear box sheet metal to column bolts which unfortunately I may have to remove those rear panels to do that and move the Z axis CS indicator..... plus do some checks that everything is straight and plum ....probably the biggest part of the job !!

    The strangest part about it all is the fact that both rear cabinets are now 4" higher and will have to re-train myself to the power lever and start buttons new positions !!
    Do you happen to have any pictured from the job? I am very interested in doing this to my machine in the future. Really glad you checked back and reported how it went!

    Thanks!



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    Default Re: Can you raise the Z axis ???

    No, I did not take any pictures whilst doing the job, sorry. It wouldn't show much anyway as would taking some now ... just a 4" block sandwiched between column and base.

    It's worth mentioning that I did this to help with a specific application that I predominately use the machine for and that application has all it machining operations at least 10" above the table.
    If your doing a lot of small part machining .... doing a 4" rise (on a 4525 anyway) will make the spindle NOSE to table clearance 8" at min Z height. You do have your tool holder, tooling and work holding fixtures (vice or whatever) to "fill in" that 8" gap but it is a significant increase over what was originally there. That of course means, small/shallow parts and short tooling will require you to use extended tool holders to even reach the part .... so keep that in mind.

    And yes, I was damn sure that I was going to do a followup on this. When chasing problems and your following thread/s on the subject ..... get to the end ... and there is no conclusion to it all, kinda defeats the purpose of it doesn't it.



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Can you raise the Z axis ???

Can you raise the Z axis ???