Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020HT

[mflux_gamblej]

I just got the Fadal 1570-1 3 probe board and the list of fuses, relays and circuit breaker for the 1100-1 pcb.
I have a TS-27R tool length probe with MI8 and an MP12 with OMM and MI12,
The Fadal diagram does not show that the MI8 interface is used with the TS-27R probe, but I saw that you are using your MI8.
From where do you feed it 24VDC? Do you use the same 6 and 7 points on the 1570-1 as where the MI12 gets 24VDC?
Did you try to connect the tool lenght probe direct to the 1570-1 as per the Fadal drawing?
It looks like the 1570-1 board should have two ice cube relays, but my board came from Fadal VMC without relays.
If your board have them could you have a look for a part number, please?

All the best,

Andy

see my hand drawn circuit below dated 04-05-2014, 01:43 PM in terms of how to wire up things. when i drew that I didn't know if you need the mi8 or not, you do Not need it. Also, the connections to the 1100 board are well drawn in the fadal manuals.

The 1570-1 should have come with relays. I got mine from ITS / fadal depot. I know that fadalcnc.com has them too. If where you bought from screwed you on relays, send it back or tell them they owe you relays. I paid like $280 for my board, came ready to rock. relay is p/n Omron MY4N. looks like its about $6 ea + shipping; you need two.

Since the board is controlled by voltages internal to the fadal, it doesn't matter what your mains voltage is / make sure you're transformer is tapped correctly at the mains (230v 3ph or whatever). I made this note because I see that you're in thailand - I don't know what voltages and freq your grid power is, but anyway, the relays on the 1570 shouldn't be region specific at all so that isn't an excuse not to have included them for example.

You don't need to use the MI-8 board if you are using the fadal 1570. I have an MI-8, but didnt use it. I may use it on my lathe (got a tool setter for it but not installed yet). You need to understand the fundamental operation of the probe - it is just a switch with a fancy trigger. That is all it is. So the machine electrically can only see 'open' or 'closed' contacts. If you look with a multimeter on the contacts on the probe, you'll see it go open circuit (big resistance value) if you move it ever so slightly / hence the precision and repeatability. Anyway, the point is that whatever config you use, you're better off knowing how it works, then you'll have confidence in your setup.

The fadal board handles the ts27r (or mp4 in my case) probe directly. refer to what is in the fadal manual too, especially for the 1100 board. they did a ****ty job drawing the 1570 but my diagram shows what to do. just ignore the mi8 on my drawing; noting that I wrote mp4 'or' mi8.

The mi8 could actually be used - it's job is to make a 'open' or 'closed' signal that has no voltage across it (draws little / no current). since you have the 1570 you are already doing this. all it means is that you should not hook up the probe directly to a microprocessor pin - use a relay or opto isolator inbetween.

no need to use the mi-8 because you are using the fadal board to do the same function as the mi8. maybe save it for use on another machine.

The MI-12 gets 24v from the fadal 1570 (see the big transformer and rectifier on it? the 1570 makes 24v)

Make sure and run the probe tests under UT on the fadal control - this is the best way to confirm operation of your probes, and fadal 1570 board. M65 activates tool probe, M64 M66 (both codes together everytime!) activates the wireless spindle probe. Also the Jog screen may say 'touching' or 'not touching' if your fadal software rev is new enough. remember that if one probe isn't working, that is the correct way! you must use m codes to activate only one probe at a time - the 1570 makes it so you cannot use both simultaneously which is important because the machine would not know which probe was triggered

[Andy Fritz]

Thanks for your reply mflux,
I doubt I can claim the Omron relays should be included since the board is pictured without them at the fadalcnc web site http://www.fadalcnc.com/index.php/pcb-0137.html
It is quite weird though as one would think a PCB is either completely populated or sold as a bare board. Good to know the M!8 is not needed. I thought perhaps it was needed to condition the signal or something.
I also have a probe arm I had planned to install on a CNC lathe so the M18 will be put to use for that.

BTW do you know the full part number for the Omron ice cube relays? I did a search for Omron MY4N and that is just the size and pin configuration. The rest of the part number tells the voltage.

Andy

[ddgman2001]

Great information. Thanks for posting this.

[Andy Fritz]

I pulled a pair of similar relays from an injection molder we are not using. They are the same but are only rated to 3A where the original relay is 5A.
I am getting loud buzzing noise from one of the left relay on the 3 probe board while the TS27 is selected and the opposite when the MP12 is selected.
If I pull the buzzing relay the TS27 is working, but if I pull the right relay after activating the MP12 it is not working. I also notice that the led for the black relay on the 1100-1D board for M66/M67 is not lighting up if M66 is input in MDI so either the led is bad or something else is wrong. I have tested all relevant black relays and they are fine.
According to the Fadal manual the led should be lit when an even numbered M code is input and go out when an odd numbered M code is input.
The led for M64/M65 is working, but regardless if the relay is active or not I always get 120VAC on the output to the 3 probe board. The same is true for the M66/M67 relay.

I don't think my immediate problem is the fact that the ice cube relays are only 3A. I am leaning towards a problem on the 1100-1D board.

Andy

[mflux_gamblej]

yeah, check your 1100 wiring. i didnt do a drawing of that, but it is in the fadal pdf manuals that everyone has. it's in the probes and scales section of the wiring diagrams. you need to jumper some, and you need to install a breaker on the 1100 although i think i read that u did that. i bet its just something dumb. good luck to you.

a buzzing relay sounds like its switching fast or something? also, who knows that the different part numbered relays do or how they are config'd internally. better get the right realy cause it could be that its NO or NC in the wrong way on some of the pins?

[Andy Fritz]

Yup, you are correct.

The problem was that the correct relay is labeled 110/120V, 24 VDC, 5A and the ones I used were labeled 24VDC, 250V and 3A.
So essentially I had 118VAC feeding the 24VDC input of the relay. No wonder it was buzzing:-)
No I have the correct relays and everything works fine. The weird voltage measured after the black relays in their OFF state on the 1100-1 board was just leakage from the black relays with very low current. I hooked up a 100W incandescent light bulb to the board to confirm the black relays worked and they did.

[Andy Fritz]

Mflux,

Where did you get the bore center finding macro for the MP10 probe?
Or did you write it yourself?
I need to start a program by probing a bore, then have the macro update the work offset before the machining begins.
Is that what your macro is doing?

Cheers,

Andy

[mflux_gamblej]

Mflux,

Where did you get the bore center finding macro for the MP10 probe?
Or did you write it yourself?
I need to start a program by probing a bore, then have the macro update the work offset before the machining begins.
Is that what your macro is doing?

Cheers,

Andy

I wrote all of my probing routines myself using the Fadal manuals. You can use L9101, or you can use a combo of G31, and G31.1. The bore program though in my video is using the L9101 macro. If you want a full featured probe you'll need to learn how to program for it. There is no turn-key solution available. even the fadal L9101 isn't good enough in certain cases.

[Andy Fritz]

I wrote all of my probing routines myself using the Fadal manuals. You can use L9101, or you can use a combo of G31, and G31.1. The bore program though in my video is using the L9101 macro. If you want a full featured probe you'll need to learn how to program for it. There is no turn-key solution available. even the fadal L9101 isn't good enough in certain cases.

I see. I will give it a go and see how far I get.

All the best,

Andy

[mflux_gamblej]

Thanks for your reply mflux,
I doubt I can claim the Omron relays should be included since the board is pictured without them at the fadalcnc web site PCB-0137
It is quite weird though as one would think a PCB is either completely populated or sold as a bare board. Good to know the M!8 is not needed. I thought perhaps it was needed to condition the signal or something.
I also have a probe arm I had planned to install on a CNC lathe so the M18 will be put to use for that.

BTW do you know the full part number for the Omron ice cube relays? I did a search for Omron MY4N and that is just the size and pin configuration. The rest of the part number tells the voltage.

Andy

The full part number is

MY4N
110/120 VAC (S)

the other ratings on it are 5A 250VAC, 5A 30VDC

I am installing probes on another machine, and like you, my new 3 probe board came without the relays. ********. I got a 10 pack of them on ebay for $40 though, that'll do.

[MBF Design]

Great job, where did you mount the 1570-1 board, could you take a pic. and post it.

/Mike

[vertcnc]

If I get the Fadal 3 probe interface PCB do I still need the MI8 to go with the MP4,
Thanks

[mflux_gamblej]

If I get the Fadal 3 probe interface PCB do I still need the MI8 to go with the MP4,
Thanks

no.

[vertcnc]

Thanks
Do you have any pictures how the pcb is mounted.

[Andy Fritz]

If I get the Fadal 3 probe interface PCB do I still need the MI8 to go with the MP4,
Thanks

I don't know the mp4 but I did not need to use the mi8 with the ts-27 probe. I would guess you do not need it.

[mflux_gamblej]

Thanks
Do you have any pictures how the pcb is mounted.

it is mounted to a hole that is already in the control cabinet sheet metal - it is likely not intended for this purpose. there is also a hole in the PCB, or you can use the hole where the regulator (black 3 pin IC / thru hole with gnd pad). one very important detail is that I clipped off all the thru hole leads and excess solder on the back of the pcb and I laminated the back of the board with kapton tape so it wont short out on the sheet metal.

lame as this installation is, it has worked for 1.5 years now, and I repeated it on my VMC-20 recently - no problems.

the pcb is designed for 'snap-trac' which I believe to be a product that is no longer made. too bad.

[vertcnc]

That must be the power cabinet, not the control cabinet? Did you need the Cube relays you have in the BOM? Thanks

[mflux_gamblej]

That must be the power cabinet, not the control cabinet? Did you need the Cube relays you have in the BOM? Thanks

no, it is control cabinet

yes you need the relays unless your board comes with them., MY4N-AC110/120(S), qty 2x

you also need all of the solid state relays, etc. that is listed. you just dont need the mi8. if you did use the mi8 it would be OK too just not necessary

I think i answered some of this already a previous time, please read before you ask

[vertcnc]

ok Thanks
I also have a Marposs laser toolsetter I may try.

[mflux_gamblej]

ok Thanks
I also have a Marposs laser toolsetter I may try.

it should work just fine. the only thing that happens when a probe gets tripped is that it goes to a high resistance. the pin on the fadal backplane board just needs to see this change. you may need to check to see if shorted or high z makes the machine think the probe is tripped, but it is as simple as that. you could build a tool setter out of anything that acts like a switch. the renishaw stuff is fancy because of it's kinematic design. you can design those things too...