Europe COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE


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    Default COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Machinists around the world need to make local public health officials aware that almost any CNC machine can be programmed to operate a bellows. Even lathes with modified tapping cycles. Bellows are easy to manufacture or purchase as well.

    Very unconventional but in many places ventilators are in need. People are dying without them. Many plants exist that are relatively clean and contain hundreds of CNC machines. CNC machinery is actually much higher quality than ventilators. Places like Italy have plants like Beretta for example.Literally hundreds of ventilators just sitting there. The time to get inventive is now folks!

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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    The hobbyist average Joe can't help and this goes for many large firms too.
    You have to be specially medically certified and registered to be able to make parts for such equipment.
    This has already been discussed.

    Europe has giant hoops firms need to go through before they are even considered to be given contracts.



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    The hobbyist average Joe can't help and this goes for many large firms too.
    You have to be specially medically certified and registered to be able to make parts for such equipment.
    This has already been discussed.

    Europe has giant hoops firms need to go through before they are even considered to be given contracts.

    I realize that, many people in the war zone having a family member being denied a respirator would have an alternative though it might be bizarre one. I'm pretty sure many people in these horrible areas couldn't care less about any red tape if its what they had to do to save their kid or spouse. Its hard to wrap your head around something like this, we are spoiled, Italy had over 800 deaths in one day. They don't have enough respirators. Lots of motivation to kick red tape to the curb over there. I wouldn't be sitting around watching a loved one die because they can't get a ventilator, many are. I do appreciate your input though, very true. I'm referring to extreme measures, they always require extreme solutions.



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by taxslave View Post
    I realize that, many people in the war zone having a family member being denied a respirator would have an alternative though it might be bizarre one. I'm pretty sure many people in these horrible areas couldn't care less about any red tape if its what they had to do to save their kid or spouse. Its hard to wrap your head around something like this, we are spoiled, Italy had over 800 deaths in one day. They don't have enough respirators. Lots of motivation to kick red tape to the curb over there. I wouldn't be sitting around watching a loved one die because they can't get a ventilator, many are. I do appreciate your input though, very true. I'm referring to extreme measures, they always require extreme solutions.
    Unfortunately, a simple bellows vent is not the answer to this problem These patients need a very sophisticated ventilator that provides a specific pattern/pressure mode. Its not that they can't breath, but that they can't manage the gas diffusion needed to oxygenate their blood. I do understand the frustration you feel. As a Respiratory Therapist, I and my co-workers feel it also.

    Troy Schleben, Registered Respiratory Therapist
    Louisiana, USA



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    yes , it is bad things , now China is rough almost under control. we purchase some face mask ,temperautre gun ,protective suits for customer.



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Sorry Troy, I respectfully disagree. I've been in this business over 40 years and you wouldn't be the first person I've known that misunderstands the fact CNC machines make just about every single thing you touch in your business. That ventilator is in fact an offspring of the major equipment that made it. A very tiny part of a CNC machine is in fact that ventilator. I guarantee you that whatever little program that operates the bellows in that ventilator a properly programmed CNC mill could do, inhale exhale multiple bellows timing everything. Furthermore, give me any windows based CNC mill and any sensor that ventilator has and the machine could be programmed to process the sensor information to adjust the real time program the same way the ventilators doing it. Trust me, any windows based CNC mill is that ventilators daddy. Fully adjustable to work anything you put in front of it. Its a computer capable of running multiple axis's to do whatever that ventilator can do and more.



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Thanks for your reply. My condolences to your country. A very rough time for sure. Don't give up. We'll get through this.



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    Default COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by taxslave View Post
    Sorry Troy, I respectfully disagree. I've been in this business over 40 years and you wouldn't be the first person I've known that misunderstands the fact CNC machines make just about every single thing you touch in your business. That ventilator is in fact an offspring of the major equipment that made it. A very tiny part of a CNC machine is in fact that ventilator. I guarantee you that whatever little program that operates the bellows in that ventilator a properly programmed CNC mill could do, inhale exhale multiple bellows timing everything. Furthermore, give me any windows based CNC mill and any sensor that ventilator has and the machine could be programmed to process the sensor information to adjust the real time program the same way the ventilators doing it. Trust me, any windows based CNC mill is that ventilators daddy. Fully adjustable to work anything you put in front of it. Its a computer capable of running multiple axis's to do whatever that ventilator can do and more.
    I am an amateur CNC operator in the sense that I built and run an Avid Pro 24x48” w spindle and Mach 4 and cut wood acrylic and aluminum sheet on it every day (taught myself parametric design on Fusion 360 and do tool paths in it).

    I am also a US board certified, and practicing critical care physician.

    I agree w Troy’s points above. Although obviously a repetitive and cyclic movement can be programmed on a CNC machine, that is a minor part of a modern ventilator.


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    Last edited by koenbro; 03-27-2020 at 10:46 AM.
    Avid CNCRP Pro 4824 with 2.2kW spindle


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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    These patients have ARDS that is a very challenging oxygenation problem, as Troy pointed out above. Their ventilation needs are such that to start with, they need low tidal volumes to limit peak pressures, and a constant and relatively speaking high recruitment pressure to keep their airways open. The sensors and the computer programmed modes are key.

    There are other things like proning (flipping patients from laying on their backs to laying on their bellies, while ventilated) to help recruit lung areas that are relatively spared. All ventilators can do is provide support while patients recover but i struggle to see how a CNC can have a direct therapeutic role.


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    Avid CNCRP Pro 4824 with 2.2kW spindle


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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by koenbro View Post
    I am an amateur CNC operator in the sense that I built and run an Avid Pro 24x48” w spindle and Mach 4 and cut wood acrylic and aluminum sheet on it every day (taught myself parametric design on Fusion 360 and do tool paths in it).

    I am also a US board certified, and practicing critical care physician.

    I agree w Troy’s points above. Although obviously a repetitive and cyclic movement can be programmed on a CNC machine, that is a minor part of a modern ventilator.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Sorry, I know exactly how a ventilator works, different modes and functions that could all easily be provided on the table of a windows based milling machine, a spindle attachment could move among and operate them all. Don't forget how quick feeds can be. The exact same pressure sensors could easily be programmed to do exactly what they do on a respirator. Zero problem.
    The mill wouldn't be just pushing up and down on a bellows, that would be super easy. A spindle attachment could easily move between pressure switches, bellows, whatever the sensors telling it to do. Pressure and volume controlled exactly the same as a ventilator. I seriously have to say I'm surprised you can't see this considering your background.
    This could be accomplished quite easily actually. Any good machinist could do this. No ifs or maybes about it.Guaranteed!



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    There is no point in reinventing the wheel. A better use of CNC mills might be to crank up production of ventilator parts or tooling as needed and ship them to a central location for final assembly, testing, and distribution.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    There is no point in reinventing the wheel. A better use of CNC mills might be to crank up production of ventilator parts or tooling as needed and ship them to a central location for final assembly, testing, and distribution.
    Again. You have to be specially medically certified and registered to be able to make parts for such equipment.
    This has already been discussed.



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    Again. You have to be specially medically certified and registered to be able to make parts for such equipment.
    This has already been discussed.
    You are absolutely correct. But in the USA there have been some emergency rules changes for some products that allow non-certified vendors to supply medical equipment. I'm sure this is not a blanket rule change, but it could be done as needed. For instance, I'm pretty sure that GM and Ford are not certified medical vendors, but they have the manufacturing capacity that is needed right now so they are cranking up production as needed. I have no idea how they are going to verify the equipment, but I assume there is a process in place.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by taxslave View Post
    Sorry Troy, I respectfully disagree. I've been in this business over 40 years and you wouldn't be the first person I've known that misunderstands the fact CNC machines make just about every single thing you touch in your business. That ventilator is in fact an offspring of the major equipment that made it. A very tiny part of a CNC machine is in fact that ventilator. I guarantee you that whatever little program that operates the bellows in that ventilator a properly programmed CNC mill could do, inhale exhale multiple bellows timing everything. Furthermore, give me any windows based CNC mill and any sensor that ventilator has and the machine could be programmed to process the sensor information to adjust the real time program the same way the ventilators doing it. Trust me, any windows based CNC mill is that ventilators daddy. Fully adjustable to work anything you put in front of it. Its a computer capable of running multiple axis's to do whatever that ventilator can do and more.
    A normal cnc machine control can not do anything that a ventilator can do and would be dangerous for the patient to even think it could, I build CNC controls and have been in the medical industry and know people that have worked for the companies that make ventilators, tkevan is correct it's not even close to what is used to control a ventilator

    Your thoughts are in the right place in helping but this is not going to help

    Dyson has just built one that can be mass produced and it has been rejected at this point

    James Dyson designed a new ventilator in 10 days. He's making 15,000 for the coronavirus outbreak

    Alok Sharma, the UK business minister, said Friday that ventilators made by Dyson and other suppliers will need to meet regulatory requirements before being used by the National Health Service.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by koenbro View Post
    These patients have ARDS that is a very challenging oxygenation problem, as Troy pointed out above. Their ventilation needs are such that to start with, they need low tidal volumes to limit peak pressures, and a constant and relatively speaking high recruitment pressure to keep their airways open. The sensors and the computer programmed modes are key.

    There are other things like proning (flipping patients from laying on their backs to laying on their bellies, while ventilated) to help recruit lung areas that are relatively spared. All ventilators can do is provide support while patients recover but i struggle to see how a CNC can have a direct therapeutic role.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The ventilator itself is a dumbed down version of Cnc mill. Its programmed to operate the bellows and other components that make it work. Any windows based cnc could hold the similar software and be programmed to operate bellows and switches on the table. It is a robot after all. All you would need that you couldn't make in a hurry, would be the ventilator sensors. Its very easy to get sensors because they're a part that requires frequent changing.

    This would be great in an emergency situation. Don't forget the huge number of people that died in Italy without respirators available. Sensors and software to adjust are available. It can be done. Not a problem for any computer/programming expert.

    I could do it, I have a couple employees that could as well. Its not rocket science,its having a superior understanding of the CNC machinery we operate every day. It is a robot, so is the inside of that respirator except its a much inferior one.



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Its not reinventing the wheel. This is an emergency situation. Who cares about paperwork. Over 800 people a day in Italy died. They didn't have even 5% of the ventilators required. In a nutshell, I'm saying, if I lived in Italy and owned a machine shop and my dad needed a ventilator, I'd get the sensor switches, the software and he would have a ventilator. It appears those that don't understand this are merely machine operators that don't fully understand software, computers, and robotics. Just basic knowledge, all they really need, nothing wrong with that.



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Any windows based cnc control could be modified to except data from the same respirator sensors in a ventilator. It could easily be adapted to whatever movements you require. Sounds like many people on this forum have only basic surface knowledge of their machinery. It is a robot, it just needs someone that knows what their doing to tell it what to do. Far better than nothing if your life needs a ventilator.



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by taxslave View Post
    Any windows based cnc control could be modified to except data from the same respirator sensors in a ventilator. It could easily be adapted to whatever movements you require. Sounds like many people on this forum have only basic surface knowledge of their machinery. It is a robot, it just needs someone that knows what their doing to tell it what to do. Far better than nothing if your life needs a ventilator.
    No it could not you are repeating yourself, just basic knowledge you say then go to it and show everyone how to build one, talk is of what can be done does not get it done, so take some action instead of wasting your time here



    Ventec is working with GM and GM are almost up speed, GM will make parts that support the building of a ventilators

    There are more than just ventilators that are needed, if you want one so bad go to Ebay there you can buy one

    Most of all we would love to see what kind of franken machine you come up with

    Last edited by burs; 03-30-2020 at 03:55 AM. Reason: One sentence deleted. Please be careful not to get personal.
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Ebay number just one of many options 283825487518

    And some other suppliers

    https://www.integrisequipment.com/Ve...ors_s/1860.htm

    https://avantehs.com/c/respiratory-ventilators/112

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    I don't know how manhy of you will have seen this https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/u...ators/4774112/ .Basically it is a united effort by all the Formula 1 teams in England to get ventilators produced.I can't think of an industry more suited to coming up with a solution in a short time and then getting the stuff produced.I wish them every success.



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