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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by taxslave View Post
    Then you shouldn't have a problem here. Your absolutely correct about other controllers being adaptable though they require a computer to talk to them. You'd have to write similar programming of course, anyplace real time intervention is required from any sensor, you could utilize much the same program as the alarm intervention path, modified of course.More ways exist. No different than what a manufacturing robot does when it runs out of parts or can't any longer torque to spec. This is where windows is nice. Very similar to making a semi complicated app. Again, emergency situation, not trying to make an approved device to market.
    Even though it wouldn't be near as sophisticated as what I'm talking about here, you could easily program any mill to push the air bulb similar to a handheld ventilator any way it needs to be pushed and eliminate a person having to do it. Many machines could mimic that. I was surprised to find the simplest setting on a ventilator mimics this hand squeezed device, evidently the mode required for most covid patients. I just saw this on tv a half hour ago. Ontario has around a thousand of these hand operated ventilators due to arrive next week in case they run short of regular ventilators. That pretty much kicks the " sophisticated device " claim to the curb. Even though a sensor ventilator can be copied. We don't have to, any apprentice could write the code for a variety of cnc machinery to eliminate the need for a person. I guess in regards to Ontarios scenario. Ventilators are indeed everywhere.
    Are so now you are talking about hand bagging someone, no control is required for doing this, and there is no shortage of this type of Ventilator, critical care is where they say they will have a problem but there are 160,000 critical care Ventilators in hospitals in the US and 12,700 in storage that have not been released yet

    Hospitals are not prepared to pay for them, they want them for free or supplied by the government

    Even with a critical care Ventilator you still need a Respiratory Therapist and a Doctor and a nurse

    Here is an article on Ventilators that may help you understand what is needed to treat a patient, this is very basic https://health.howstuffworks.com/med...entilators.htm

    These Bags can help but there is no shortage of this type of Ventilator and will not help anyone once they reach critical care

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE-bag-mask-ventilation-png  
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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Are so now you are talking about hand bagging someone, no control is required for doing this, and there is no shortage of this type of Ventilator, critical care is where they say they will have a problem but there are 160,000 critical care Ventilators in hospitals in the US and 12,700 in storage that have not been released yet

    Hospitals are not prepared to pay for them, they want them for free or supplied by the government

    Even with a critical care Ventilator you still need a Respiratory Therapist and a Doctor and a nurse

    Here is an article on Ventilators that may help you understand what is needed to treat a patient, this is very basic https://health.howstuffworks.com/med...entilators.htm

    These Bags can help but there is no shortage of this type of Ventilator and will not help anyone once they reach critical care
    That's about as far as I got with my thinking as said before.
    A mechanism to squeeze / release a CPR bag using axis control with a valve type unit to fill it with some oxygen after each compression. This would help free up the care workers from having to do this themselves so they could treat more.
    But this is in no way a substitute for actual ventilation.



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by routalot View Post
    So many machines and so much knowledge being talked about and you fellows are helping humanity by bickering on an online forum?
    1) It's keeping us off the streets and away from other people so we hopefully stay healthy and don't contribute to the shortages.

    2) I'm semi-retired and in the high risk group. Not too much else to do but self quarantine and hang out online.

    3) My machines are running every day making parts for completely unrelated applications. And if needed I could and would make parts to help out directly, but as it stands now there is not much meaningful that I could actually do based on the capacity that I have. For the moment, the large manufactures that have the capacity and infrastructure can handle the load. If it comes down to small shop operations being needed to keep up with the demand then I think we have some larger problems.

    Last edited by Jim Dawson; 03-30-2020 at 01:01 PM.
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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by routalot View Post
    So many machines and so much knowledge being talked about and you fellows are helping humanity by bickering on an online forum?
    With all due respect, my idea is sound. It can work as described, I merely dealt with a troll attack so those in need won't be swayed. I don't mind when people disagree, but as you can see I had to deal with an entity that had no intention of agreement or even learning for that matter. We are in a difficult time. Sound ideas can save lives. I thank you for your concern and I apologize for my way of ridding the poorly intentioned.



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by taxslave View Post
    With all due respect, my idea is sound. It can work as described, I merely dealt with a troll attack so those in need won't be swayed. I don't mind when people disagree, but as you can see I had to deal with an entity that had no intention of agreement or even learning for that matter. We are in a difficult time. Sound ideas can save lives. I thank you for your concern and I apologize for my way of ridding the poorly intentioned.
    The whole point is you have no examples to show a working model not even a sketch so talk is all you are doing with nothing to back up any of your talk I'm still waiting for your code example in any form you want use post

    This is what it is all about people that have been doing this from the start when they new there was a problem there are already many solutions that work here is one

    https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/new...reathing-aids/

    Get to know what you are talking about do the Math, roughly 80% don't need a Ventilator of any kind so how short are they of critical care Ventilators if you live in the usa then they have enough Ventilators at the present rate of infection what the health care worker's don't have enough of are masks and gowns

    Mild symptoms
    When it comes to COVID-19, the term ”mild symptoms” can be a bit misleading. A mild case of COVID-19 might simply feel like a cold, or it could include symptoms as serious as fever, cough and pneumonia ? but not to the point where you need to be hospitalized. Roughly 80% of cases are mild, while the rest are classified as “severe” or “critical.” A case is considered severe when you need oxygen or a ventilator to breathe. Critical cases involve respiratory failure or multi-organ failure.

    SARS-CoV-2
    “SARS-CoV-2” is the official name of the virus that causes the disease COVID-19. Not a lot of people use the official name, instead saying “COVID-19” or “the coronavirus.” Even the World Health Organization has backed away from the term “SARS-CoV-2,” saying instead “the virus that causes COVID-19” in order to avoid confusion with the disease SARS, which caused an outbreak in 2003.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by taxslave View Post
    my idea is sound. I apologize for my way of ridding the poorly intentioned.
    Your idea is far from sound . For one you mention Ontario , Ont and Canada in general has some of the strictest regulations in regards to healthcare and healthcare products . take a look around oshawa if you want to see how the real world works . The notion that a windows based cnc can be used to run your idea in the large plants around ontario will have you laughed out the door , since most industrial manufacturing machines do not run on windows .
    You suggesting using a lathe with a modified tapping is beyond reality , which can easily be interpreted as a severe lack of knowledge in regards to cnc , or , in other words simple robotics

    as I said before you don't know my background . I've been in manufacturing for 30yrs . I spent 13yrs of that in shops making medical products , many I've designed and many are still in production today . the red tape is much thicker than you could imagine . The products and assemblies we made and designed fell into the gray areas because there was too much bureaucracy involved with the red tape products . Ventilators and life saving products fall into the red tape district

    If thats not enough then the contamination in most machine-shops should be enough to prevent throwing some poor victim into .

    If you want to hook up an emergency bag to a cnc for one of your family members then by all means go for it , but the rest of us will likely rely on a proper medical system

    Last edited by metalmayhem; 03-30-2020 at 02:26 PM.


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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    That's about as far as I got with my thinking as said before.
    A mechanism to squeeze / release a CPR bag using axis control with a valve type unit to fill it with some oxygen after each compression. This would help free up the care workers from having to do this themselves so they could treat more.
    But this is in no way a substitute for actual ventilation.
    Yes as I said is no substitute and is not what is needed for a patient that needs critical care

    The machine like this would have to be able to sense what the patient needed in terms of oxygen input and be able to measure the pressure in the lungs and many other signals at the same time, which is not possible without a sophisticated algorithm that can be controlled by a computer, in other words complex software which is used, that has taken the ventilator manufacturers years to develop

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by metalmayhem View Post
    Your idea is far from sound . For one you mention Ontario , Ont and Canada in general has some of the strictest regulations in regards to healthcare and healthcare products . take a look around oshawa if you want to see how the real world works . The notion that a windows based cnc can be used to run your idea in the large plants around ontario will have you laughed out the door , since most industrial manufacturing machines do not run on windows .
    You suggesting using a lathe with a modified tapping is beyond reality and shows a severe lack of knowledge in regards to cnc or in other words simple robotics

    as I said before you don't know my background . I've been in manufacturing for 30yrs . I spent 13yrs of that in shops making medical products , many I've designed and many are still in production today . the red tape is much thicker than you could imagine . The products and assemblies we made and designed fell into the gray areas because there was too much bureaucracy involved with the red tape products . Ventilators and life saving products fall into the red tape district

    If thats not enough then the contamination in most machine-shops should be enough to prevent throwing some poor victim into .

    If you want to hook up an emergency bag to a cnc for one of your family members then by all means go for it , but the rest of us will likely rely on a proper medical system
    Again, more of the same. I realized on the weekend I was in the wrong place trying to discuss writing underlying programs in CNC equipment to general operators. I've since moved on to discussions with a group that write software for various functions including robotics. A lot of ideas on the many ways this could easily function are a result. Thank you for trying though. My mistake. Simply the wrong place for this discussion.



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by taxslave View Post
    Again, more of the same. I realized on the weekend I was in the wrong place trying to discuss writing underlying programs in CNC equipment to general operators. I've since moved on to discussions with a group that write software for various functions including robotics. A lot of ideas on the many ways this could easily function are a result. Thank you for trying though. My mistake. Simply the wrong place for this discussion.
    Hi, I'm retired now but if I recall we had some similar machinery. I've always loved that handle, aren't we all. I usually read through this forum every month or so to see whats happening, Anyways, I saw your name and read through all the comments, It appears you were in the wrong place for the science. People trying to change your narrative from an emergency situation to a medically approved device didn't help the conversation. I come with good news. My grandson is presently enrolled in a robotics class. Entry level, His teacher was inspired by a story out of China where a 15 year old kid saved his neighbors life. No respirators were available and his neighbors were hand bagging their mother. Evidently the kid was into robotics and had a kit he built a robotic arm from, This kid modified the arm to push the bag and programmed it to push the way it had to. He saved a life. My grandsons teacher has a group of students making this same device as a project to learn from. Great teacher! Anyhow, long story short, you aren't the only one with this brilliant idea. Search homemade respirators on youtube. My grandson showed me many are actually doing what you suggested though they don't have the luxury you have in a cnc mill ready to program to push a bag. My grandson was very interested because he used to help me in my shop and loves machinery, smart kid, he chimed in they should set up portable hospitals beside industrial plants, they could run airlines, you could put more than one bag on a mill table he says. Anyhow, you have a couple fans here. There are only leaders or followers taxslave, you're not a follower. Great innovation!



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    there are also instructional videos on youtube in regards to making face masks from bras , even though health officials continue to repeat that the general public should not where masks .



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Further to my earlier post,this news item has now appeared:https://us.cnn.com/2020/03/30/tech/m...rus/index.html .Please don't bother telling me they aren't the all singing,all dancing ventilators but they are intended to save lives and leave the more complex machines free for those who really need them.I was a little saddened to learn that the makers of the more complex machines were uncooperative on the basis of protecting their designs.



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Do you already know this challenge? I was wondering if it could be of interest to you!?

    https://www.coventchallenge.com/





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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Great attitudes can't, can't, can't.
    Same attitudes I see with printed face masks when the machinist community gets involved. Not FDA approved, won't pass fit test....
    Seems like a group a fools that would die because the 19mm wrench is missing as your tripping over 3/4's.
    I wish I could find the janky contraption MIT is experimenting, a cable attached to a stepper motor shaft acting as a cable drum. The other end of cable attached to a paddle squeezing a ventilator bag.
    Sure there not cnc controlled but many cnc like materials in there build.
    Check out this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McnqZXRVdxY





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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by routalot View Post
    Further to my earlier post,this news item has now appeared:https://us.cnn.com/2020/03/30/tech/m...rus/index.html .Please don't bother telling me they aren't the all singing,all dancing ventilators but they are intended to save lives and leave the more complex machines free for those who really need them.I was a little saddened to learn that the makers of the more complex machines were uncooperative on the basis of protecting their designs.

    Yes. Basically a version of a C,P,A,P unit (or something like that). It might help some people but again is not really a substitute for the critical.
    But on the flip side what will happen is, while we piss about 'testing' and faffing (as usual) they'll take orders from worldwide. By the time it comes to get some in the NHS ourselves -, There'll be a backlog and they'll tell us we have to wait 5 months even though it's made here!!!



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by routalot View Post
    Further to my earlier post,this news item has now appeared:https://us.cnn.com/2020/03/30/tech/m...rus/index.html .Please don't bother telling me they aren't the all singing,all dancing ventilators but they are intended to save lives and leave the more complex machines free for those who really need them.I was a little saddened to learn that the makers of the more complex machines were uncooperative on the basis of protecting their designs.
    Yes I already posted that here and this has been tested and works at the intermediate level which is where the treatment needs to start

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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by acra2100 View Post
    Hi, I'm retired now but if I recall we had some similar machinery. I've always loved that handle, aren't we all. I usually read through this forum every month or so to see whats happening, Anyways, I saw your name and read through all the comments, It appears you were in the wrong place for the science. People trying to change your narrative from an emergency situation to a medically approved device didn't help the conversation. I come with good news. My grandson is presently enrolled in a robotics class. Entry level, His teacher was inspired by a story out of China where a 15 year old kid saved his neighbors life. No respirators were available and his neighbors were hand bagging their mother. Evidently the kid was into robotics and had a kit he built a robotic arm from, This kid modified the arm to push the bag and programmed it to push the way it had to. He saved a life. My grandsons teacher has a group of students making this same device as a project to learn from. Great teacher! Anyhow, long story short, you aren't the only one with this brilliant idea. Search homemade respirators on youtube. My grandson showed me many are actually doing what you suggested though they don't have the luxury you have in a cnc mill ready to program to push a bag. My grandson was very interested because he used to help me in my shop and loves machinery, smart kid, he chimed in they should set up portable hospitals beside industrial plants, they could run airlines, you could put more than one bag on a mill table he says. Anyhow, you have a couple fans here. There are only leaders or followers taxslave, you're not a follower. Great innovation!
    The problem with this is there is no shortage of this level of Ventilation, and with your suggestion you would hurt of kill more people with this uncontrolled method of bagging

    Any type of bagging can help at the none critical stage, once the patient reaches a critical stage when organs start to shut down only 1 in 10 are being saved with critical care Ventilator use which would be imposable to do with any CNC or a machine under robotic control

    There are many different devices already being used and there is no shortage at this level of treatment

    This simple CPAP device does all what you are talking about and more, and there is no shortage of devices like this

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE-ucl-amg-png   COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE-cpap-jpg   COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE-cpap-2-jpg  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by taxslave View Post
    Again, more of the same. I realized on the weekend I was in the wrong place trying to discuss writing underlying programs in CNC equipment to general operators. I've since moved on to discussions with a group that write software for various functions including robotics. A lot of ideas on the many ways this could easily function are a result. Thank you for trying though. My mistake. Simply the wrong place for this discussion.
    Glade you found somewhere to post I still waiting for the code you said was so easy to write or a skitch of how you would make a CNC machine do the job of a CPAP unit, all you have done is talk

    Here is a CPAC package, anyone can buy one, and there is no shortage of them, this will do a better job plus more, than any CNC Machine or Robotic controlled machine

    Note there is no shortage at this level of Ventilator requirement

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE-cpap-2-jpg  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by acra2100 View Post
    Hi, I'm retired now but if I recall we had some similar machinery. I've always loved that handle, aren't we all. I usually read through this forum every month or so to see whats happening, Anyways, I saw your name and read through all the comments, It appears you were in the wrong place for the science. People trying to change your narrative from an emergency situation to a medically approved device didn't help the conversation. I come with good news. My grandson is presently enrolled in a robotics class. Entry level, His teacher was inspired by a story out of China where a 15 year old kid saved his neighbors life. No respirators were available and his neighbors were hand bagging their mother. Evidently the kid was into robotics and had a kit he built a robotic arm from, This kid modified the arm to push the bag and programmed it to push the way it had to. He saved a life. My grandsons teacher has a group of students making this same device as a project to learn from. Great teacher! Anyhow, long story short, you aren't the only one with this brilliant idea. Search homemade respirators on youtube. My grandson showed me many are actually doing what you suggested though they don't have the luxury you have in a cnc mill ready to program to push a bag. My grandson was very interested because he used to help me in my shop and loves machinery, smart kid, he chimed in they should set up portable hospitals beside industrial plants, they could run airlines, you could put more than one bag on a mill table he says. Anyhow, you have a couple fans here. There are only leaders or followers taxslave, you're not a follower. Great innovation!
    Thank you for the kind words. It sounds like your grandchild is a motivated young man, great to hear. I've always ignored negative thinkers. There are a lot of people out there that can speak only of ways something can't be done. I learned this when I was 11 years old, I adapted one of those old gasoline washing machine motors with the starting pedal to motorize my bicycle. My first machining job was on my uncles Atlas bench lathe making an aluminum drive wheel that fit the top of the tire. I had many naysayers, my brothers, schoolmates etc but the glory was all mine the day I went flying by them all on my motorized bike. I have so many gizmo's I've made over the years I need another shed.
    Once I became aligned with the robotics people, they to have heard many innovative ideas out of China during this crisis. They also pointed me to the Youtube postings. Its great to see our inventors combine forces around the world and fight this crisis. I must say these robotic people are among the most inventive and motivated group I've ever seen in my life, many are very young, great to see. Almost zero negativity in that crowd. To anyone reading this. If you've never seen the robotic kits available for kids these days, go check it out. Trust me when I say get your child into this, boy or girl, many seem to love this. Its the future.
    Again, thank you for the kind words and take care of yourself in this horrible crisis. Never let anyone tell you something can't be done.



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    the main reason that most people with covid are gasping for air is because of a lack of oxygen , due to extensive damage to their lungs . An emergency bag that is hooked up to a push rod which is pushing room air into the lungs is not going to give the patient the oxygen they need . As mentioned these devises may work for non critical but these simple devises are a far cry from the silliness of connecting a bladder to a full on cnc machine



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    Default Re: COVID 19 VENTILATORS ARE EVERYWHERE

    Quote Originally Posted by taxslave View Post
    Again, more of the same. I realized on the weekend I was in the wrong place trying to discuss writing underlying programs in CNC equipment to general operators. I've since moved on to discussions with a group that write software for various functions including robotics. A lot of ideas on the many ways this could easily function are a result. Thank you for trying though. My mistake. Simply the wrong place for this discussion.
    I don't think that anyone here said it's impossible to use a CNC controller/machine/robot to perform a repetitive task such as operating a bellows, of course that is possible. We are arguing is that it is not practical. Not to mention moving a CNC machine to the victim or vice-versa would be a logistical nightmare.

    On the low end, the hobby class Windows based systems are for the most part very limited in functionality but still could provide rudimentary operation. While somewhat flexible in the programming depending on the system, the hardware just doesn't have the capability of sophisticated operations outside of the design parameters.

    The high end CNC machines have software and controllers that are pretty much locked down, not re-programmable at the user level, and will only provide the functionality that is factory programmed in, but still could be used to perform a repetitive task by using a loop in the G code.

    Both of the above could be used to operate something similar to a hand operated bagging system, but that is about the limitation of their capabilities, not because they are a bad system, but rather they were designed for a specific task that they do very well and don't lend themselves to much adaptability.

    There is another class of controllers that are programmable, and most can be programmed with a Windows (or Linux) based computer. I'm not going to try to list all of the available controllers here, but I think most of us know what is available. Suffice it to say that they range from Arduino and similar devices, to industrial controllers. These are designed to be user programmed to perform any task required, depending on the capabilities of the specific device.

    I'm not even going to try to address the electromechanical hardware requirements for such a system.

    The better use of our machines is to support the proven systems that are already in place.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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