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    Granted. But I still would like to see new energy efficient, non polluting technology in my lifetime so I can enjoy the fresh air.



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    Default Who knows

    Mariss
    To state that the weather has varied a great deal in previous epochs is doubtlessly true. But that doesn't negate the possibility of human activity causing global warming. I doubt we know enough to know for sure, my guess is that it's having an effect. I really don't think all those scientists are just trying to garner research grants although some probably are. Also the folks who say it isn't happening probably have an interest in doing so as well. If only to assuage their conscience for driving a Hummer. When the best minds out there are saying it's happening you have to consider the possibility that it is.
    Donna



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    Quote Originally Posted by alexccmeister View Post
    Granted. But I still would like to see new energy efficient, non polluting technology in my lifetime so I can enjoy the fresh air.
    The processes of living (breathing, digestion, reproduction, etc.) produce pollutants no matter how large or small the organism. (You get sick from something as small as a virus) Therefore you have impractical unattainable expectations.

    As far as fresh air, save your pennies and take a cruise to Hawaii.

    In the mean time use YOUR money to search for a method to trap the by products of internal combustion. Build a better "mouse trap" and get rich!!



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    Who knows,
    My "interests" are in designing electronic circuits. I'm not a part of some diabolical dark cabal intent on making the earth a steaming and polluted cesspool. What would these conspirators do? Ruin the earth, then take their profits and move to Mars?

    I do have a reverence for science and reason. The barbarians have already debased the soft sciences and are now mounting their assault on the remaining hard sciences. Mathematics is next. Maybe in the future 10,000 renowned Green Mathematicians will sign a petition that 2 + 2 is no longer 4. Consensus is everything in our New Age.

    Mariss



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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzdonna View Post
    Mariss
    To state that the weather has varied a great deal in previous epochs is doubtlessly true. But that doesn't negate the possibility of human activity causing global warming. I doubt we know enough to know for sure, my guess is that it's having an effect. I really don't think all those scientists are just trying to garner research grants although some probably are. Also the folks who say it isn't happening probably have an interest in doing so as well. If only to assuage their conscience for driving a Hummer. When the best minds out there are saying it's happening you have to consider the possibility that it is.
    Donna
    Neither does it prove the possibility of man caused warming, you yourself state that we don't know for sure. One thing we DO know for sure is that there are human sharks out there looking to clip the gullible with any brand of snake oil available.

    I believe that they ALL are trying for grant money to fund "research"!

    I don't own a "Hummer" but rest assured I feel NO guilt going down the highway in my 36" motor coach. It's mine, I bought it with MY money as the fuel it comsumes as well. NO APOLOGY extended to anyone!

    We will also argue over "the best minds" as long as you have lunatics like Algore proffering his brand of bilge water.

    None of you can tell me what the weather will be next month let alone next century. Take for example the predictions of many and massive hurricanes in the wake of Katrina. What an amazing failure! ZERO land falls and only a few real storms.

    Again, the REAL threat of Islamic terror and even the still more realistic (than warming) possibility of being struck by a giant comet go unattended!

    Go back to the "causes bin" and pick a more likely winner to scare us with because we ain't buying this one!!



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    Quote Originally Posted by jhowelb View Post
    ..... I feel NO guilt going down the highway in my 36" motor coach....
    I would feel no guilt in a 36 inch motor coach either. How many pedals does it have ?

    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.


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    A different take on the subject could be this is what happens when a movement becomes senescent, when it has accomplished its purpose and there is nothing more left to do.

    The Women's Rights movement entered this phase about a decade ago. After all the goals were accomplished, the activists and their organizations had no further meaningful purpose. The more strident and outrageous they then became, the sillier they looked and the easier they were to dismiss. They worked themselves out of a job and they were the last to know it.

    Environmentalists have done a good job. 45 years later the air is clear, the water is sparkling, species are protected, people are kind to little and big animals and there are no toxic chemicals to be found on the land, in the sea or in the air. Drugs and products are safe for children and adults. Congratulate them; the world is a better place than I remember it from my childhood.

    The problem is vast organizations were built in those 45 years and hundreds of thousands dedicated their careers to the cause's maintenance and growth. These people and those organizations are left with a rapidly diminishing purpose for existing now. Like any organic system, survival is a primary instinct and environmentalism cannot be faulted for trying to avoid the inevitable. Global Warming is their attempt to retain what fading relevance they have left. It will get sillier and it will get more outrageous than this before it's finally over.

    Mariss



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    Quote Originally Posted by alexccmeister View Post
    Granted. But I still would like to see new energy efficient, non polluting technology in my lifetime so I can enjoy the fresh air.
    The air must be really bad in Brunei. Do you live downwind of an oil refinery? If so, move.

    From my perspective, insisting on solving the "global pollution problem" with aggressive changes is just as smart as removing healthy organs to prevent cancer.

    Mariss explained what is going on better than I could in post # 87 above.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Geof View Post
    I would feel no guilt in a 36 inch motor coach either. How many pedals does it have ?

    Typical left wing tactic, take an obvious typo and attempt to blow up into an indictment. Typical and transparent. When you have nothing else, criticize on a personal level for minor human failings.



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    Quote Originally Posted by jhowelb View Post
    Typical left wing tactic, take an obvious typo and attempt to blow up into an indictment. Typical and transparent. When you have nothing else, criticize on a personal level for minor human failings.
    Touchy touchy, did you not see the BIG GRIN which is a hint that I was not being seriously critical or anything. You need to take a few deep breaths and calm down.

    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.


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    Atta boy! Deflect! Next comes equivocate then redirect by intimation! Accuse the opposition of being over sensitive or of taking unnecessary offense whether any was taken or not.

    Right from the play book. Anything to avoid admitting defeat on any point. This way we have a perpetual argument with no chance of any slight amount of agreement.

    Any way, good job! At least you haven't lost any ground.

    Last edited by jhowelb; 11-25-2007 at 08:11 PM. Reason: another typo


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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzdonna View Post
    I really don't think all those scientists are just trying to garner research grants although some probably are. Also the folks who say it isn't happening probably have an interest in doing so as well. If only to assuage their conscience for driving a Hummer. When the best minds out there are saying it's happening you have to consider the possibility that it is.
    Donna
    Dear xyzdonna,

    1) I quite agree that all scientists are not "bigging-up" the problem in order to , cynically, get more research funding. Some may be though.

    2) To suggest that those other scientists who have a different opinion are all in the pay of others, with a vested interest, stretches credulity.

    3) Who are the "best minds". Only those with whom you agree ? Might it not be possible that there is room to consider, and debate, the scientific views of others?

    Best wishes,

    Martin



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    Quote Originally Posted by jhowelb View Post
    Atta boy! Deflect! Next comes equivocate then redirect by intimation! Accuse the opposition of being over sensitive or of taking unnecessary offense whether any was taken or not.

    Right from the play book. Anything to avoid admitting defeat on any point. This way we have a perpetual argument with no chance of any slight amount of agreement.

    Any way, good job! At least you haven't lost any ground.
    Um; are you and I both using the same language? Have you read any of my posts on the topic of Global Warming? What perpetual argument are we having, you and I are fundamentally on the same side when it comes to discussing Global Warming. I really do think you should take the deep breaths...and go back and read what I have posted. When I have been in a serious mood.

    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jhowelb View Post
    Again, the REAL threat of Islamic terror and even the still more realistic (than warming) possibility of being struck by a giant comet go unattended!
    Scientists are already doing their job in patrolling the skies for any comets that may come our way. Its when these thing hits you then you realise that money is no object and our government should spend in order to eliminate the problem. Just like in the case of 911. You would even sell your 36 (inch or foot) motor coach just to support the work towards getting rid of the radicals and getting a comet out of Earth's way. Global warming hasn't done that yet. So who cares.

    Quote Originally Posted by dynosor View Post
    The air must be really bad in Brunei. Do you live downwind of an oil refinery? If so, move.
    See, thats the problem with the critics, they always think about themselves. Can't you spare some thoughts for others and offer some sort of solution than to fight every environmentalists and believers. And all I hear from the critics are "you are not going to take away my this and that". What is it that you are so afraid of? What exactly are they taking away from you?

    BTW, Brunei still has clean air but it won't be for long if the number of cars and industries keep springing up cos we don't have any other better technologies that will reduce the pollutions.

    And where do you suggest I move to? Earth is my home as much as it is yours. So please don't s4it in your back yard is all i can say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geof View Post
    Um; are you and I both using the same language? Have you read any of my posts on the topic of Global Warming? What perpetual argument are we having, you and I are fundamentally on the same side when it comes to discussing Global Warming. I really do think you should take the deep breaths...and go back and read what I have posted. When I have been in a serious mood.
    I am afraid the critics are getting paranoid here. Even with their own. Sorry just had to put that in.



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    You can enjoy all that technologies are offering right now. Nobody is stopping anyone from doing that. I sure hell can't do that. But while we are enjoying the current technologies in terms of cars, mobile homes and etc, why not work towards a new goal of achieving new technologies that will (ok not eliminate pollution) reduce it to a considerable degree. Can we not at least agree on this?



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    Fear, fear, fear, fear. Comets now, Global Warming before. Haven't you ever wondered what life would be like without fear? What it would be like if you were to put all your burdens down? If you could disconnect from all that?

    Imagine a life without fear. Imagine a life where you wake up every morning and you truly feel refreshed. Imagine a day from morning until evening when you'd say, "this was the happiest day of my life". Then you do it again after endless day again.

    If you can't or you say you would like to, then something isn't right. It is the way life was meant to be enjoyed. It is the way I live my life. I don't think it's anything special.

    Mariss



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    Fear is good. Its part of who we are. Its human nature. Fear gets us out of trouble. Whats wrong with that. Before the Tsunami in Indonesia happened, animals of all sorts ran away from the beach towards higher ground and thats why they don't perish. People on the other hand, due to their curiosity, ran towards the beach to investigate. No fear and what happen?

    Its a more dangerous world to have this concept of no fear. Look at the extremist who blow themselves up because they say "I am not fearful of death".



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    Quote Originally Posted by alexccmeister View Post
    See, thats the problem with the critics, they always think about themselves. Can't you spare some thoughts for others and offer some sort of solution than to fight every environmentalists and believers. And all I hear from the critics are "you are not going to take away my this and that". What is it that you are so afraid of? What exactly are they taking away from you?

    BTW, Brunei still has clean air but it won't be for long if the number of cars and industries keep springing up cos we don't have any other better technologies that will reduce the pollutions.

    And where do you suggest I move to? Earth is my home as much as it is yours. So please don't s4it in your back yard is all i can say.
    Alex, I am all for the development of improved technologies - I am in that business myself. However, before I spend YOUR money to solve a problem I consider to be important enough to solve, I think you have the right to all least know what the problem is and what my proposed solution will be.

    I don’t expect you to give me a blank check up front because I know best what needs doing. My problem is that the politicians pushing GW want us to trust them to do whatever they want without full disclosure, especially any kind of cost benefit analysis.

    Before solving a problem you first have to define it properly. I have a problem with people who use "pollution" and CO2 interchangeably. I am all for you implementing or developing efficient & effective strategies at preserving your clean air. If I am contributing to your lack of clean air, then I need to be involved in bringing your solution. That is, if you truly face a pollution problem. If the problem is defined as too much CO2, then I will fight you all the way.

    I don't want to force you to leave home. My statement about you moving is an effort to establish if you truly have an air pollution problem - an oil refinery would qualify. Then the question is if the refinery was operating when you moved there, or if was built after you arrived...

    In other words, how much control do you have over the air quality you breath by the choices you make and have made? Are you truly soliciting help to solve a real problem facing mankind or is it local to your neighborhood, or Brunei. If it is local to Brunei, I am willing to help if I can. Just don't expect a blank check.



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    Quote Originally Posted by alexccmeister View Post
    Fear is good. Its part of who we are. Its human nature. Fear gets us out of trouble. Whats wrong with that. Before the Tsunami in Indonesia happened, animals of all sorts ran away from the beach towards higher ground and thats why they don't perish.
    Fear is a natural mechanism that drives humans and animals to run from the lion and survive. It is a good mechanism, but not intended to operate for more than a few minutes at a time.

    It is not fear that is bad, it is those that instill lifelong fear in their fellow men so that they may have their way unopposed.



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    Default What we do know

    Quote Originally Posted by jhowelb View Post
    Neither does it prove the possibility of man caused warming, you yourself state that we don't know for sure. One thing we DO know for sure is that there are human sharks out there looking to clip the gullible with any brand of snake oil available.

    I believe that they ALL are trying for grant money to fund "research"!

    I don't own a "Hummer" but rest assured I feel NO guilt going down the highway in my 36" motor coach. It's mine, I bought it with MY money as the fuel it comsumes as well. NO APOLOGY extended to anyone!

    We will also argue over "the best minds" as long as you have lunatics like Algore proffering his brand of bilge water.

    None of you can tell me what the weather will be next month let alone next century. Take for example the predictions of many and massive hurricanes in the wake of Katrina. What an amazing failure! ZERO land falls and only a few real storms.

    Again, the REAL threat of Islamic terror and even the still more realistic (than warming) possibility of being struck by a giant comet go unattended!

    Go back to the "causes bin" and pick a more likely winner to scare us with because we ain't buying this one!!
    jhowelb
    We do know that we ourselves are funding Islamic terrorism with our petro dollars. Going green with synthetic fuels would have the duel purpose of reducing this cash flow to the middle east and possibly benefiting the environment as well. Of course we are going to be 8 years behind the curve until we can get the current moron in chief out of office and put someone in who actually has a viable energy policy. This idiot is proposing ethanol which currently takes about as much energy to produce as it creates. Biodiesel would be a better choice but ultimately hydrogen is going to be the answer.
    As to nuclear energy I think it is viable. Although I'm a liberal, (yes I like Al Gore he's from my state) I think it can be safely implemented. The Europeans do it by settling on a standard design that has all the kinks worked out and then building them all alike. This avoids much of the laborious regulatory process of having some engineer revue each element of the design. I also have a friend who's a nuclear engineer that oversaw the deconstruction of Three Mile Island after that mishap. After many conversations with him I'm sure it can be done right, it just takes a commitment.
    We also know that a lot of ice is melting in the world. The question becomes why. No doubt there are many reasons with a good possibility that some are man made. We don't know for sure but we do know that some (but not all) with a vested interest take a position one way or the other. This is the antithesis of the scientific method. We need to look at the evidence dispassionately. I think this will happen, especially if the situation worsens.
    As to your comet concerns this should be addressed as well. But it will probably have to wait until we can get religion out of politics. The Christian conservatives would probably think this is just what god had planned.
    Donna



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