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  1. #41
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    "That whiz bang technology is also an interesting topic of discussion."

    Yup, electricity to charge it generated by burning coal or oil. The mechanical energy loss by the time it enters the car has to approach 75%. You have to account for the energy to make the batteries and all the whiz bang clap trap to make that lemon tick.



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    Jhowelb, The electricity to charge the batteries in hybrid cars does come indirectly from oil, I won't argue that. The oil (gasoline) is used to get the car moving just like any other car. the prius uses the oil more efficiently by using the atkinson cycle rather than the otto cycle used in most four stroke engines. When it is time to slow the car the whiz bang clap trap kicks in and uses the kinetic energy of the vehicle to charge the batteries with energy that otherwise would go to waste. The mechanical loss is indeed high but the stored energy is still significant. When descending hills it is downright amazing. I believe the energy reqired to make the batteries is offset by the energy saved in building a smaller engine and a mechanically simpler transmission (the power split device). The technology will only get better. I am hoping that when and if I replace my batteries, I will be upgrading as well. Lastly, Toyota is the dominating automaker of the known universe. They are not known for making lemons. What's under your wallet?



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    Quote Originally Posted by grinderdust View Post
    Wyld, To answer your questions. A Prius costs somwhere around $25,000 base for a new one. Alot cheaper than a Hummer last time I checked. My state no longer offers anything to anyone for buying a prius. My prius happens to be a pre owned model from last year and I could probably sell it for more than I paid. The batteries are nickel metal hydride and there are recycling facilities available for them.They also have a 100,000 mile warranty. Since I live about as far from hollywood as you can get (or any major city for that matter) I can assure you that my purchase was made for sound financial reasons. The whiz bang technology in a prius can blow the doors off a '65 beetle while holding 5 passengers and their cargo at a level of safety and comfort that surpasses most autos in it's price range. It usually gets even better mileage in town. Plus it doesn't leave an oil spot on the driveway or make that ratty air cooled boxer sound.
    That whiz bang technology is also an interesting topic of discussion. Especially the power split device which is an amazing use of mechanics to control two motors and an engine. Very ingenious, very few moving parts.
    Nickel/metal-hydride batteries are far more toxic to the environment than lead-acid batteries. Nickel is a heavy metal that congregates in the liver and brain. How pray tell, will you take your 6-8 batteries to the recycling center? Even our local recycling facilities load everything up at railhead and ship it east. 100,000 mile warranty...for 6-8 batteries that cost more to manufacture, purchase and dispose of than the lead acid battery in my Toyota Corolla which also has a 100,000 mile warranty.

    Seems like a winning theory...let's continue. A hybrid mode vehicle is designed for in town driving, not highway. That's where the benefits of the technology shine. So you need a car that costs almost $30,000 to manufacture (Toyota's details...I can give you a website when I get home. They take a loss on every Prius with the hopes that the technology is viable for mass production...) that weighs approximately 400 lbs more than my car (same manufacturer) to travel to the grocery store & WalMart? Not to be a smartass, but my Corolla gets almost 30 mpg cruising around town. I deliver pizzas as a second job, and my commission for 2 nights' runs pays for a tank of gas. Commission...not tips. I digress...

    I agree with you that the Prius is more driveable in today's conditions than a vintage Beetle. But to say that the Prius is better because it costs more and is more sophisticated is to buy into marketing and brand image. A vehicle is transport. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a penis extension, or your vehicular aura to the rest of the world.

    Back to that whiz-bang technology...I know that it seems really cool...but why would you need TWO electric motors in hybrid mode? What's the point? Most 48V DC motors in the size range that motivate the Prius are torque monsters...producing more torque in fact than the 4-cylinder engine does at its peak. Torque is what moves you down the road...so again...why 2? And as for very few moving parts in the system...it's still a LOT more than in my Toyota Corolla. The majority of the system is electronics...controllers & sensors & software. Something like 100 lbs. more electronic components than are in my car...because I need a rolling PC. The only thing that would make the Prius better is if it were powered by Windows, and experienced a system crash during rush hour traffic.

    I'm not knocking you Grinderdust, I just don't see how the Prius is a better car for the environment than my Corolla. And I also don't see how anyone in the world has the right to judge someone for purchasing a Hummer with money that they earned. That's what a free market allows for. When I have to purchase cookie-cutter clothes, components, houses & cars, because that's what "they" say is appropriate...where will innovation and research come into play? The old standard will be quite adequate thank you, we get by just fine with the ACME 200JX, my dad had one and I think it's quite the car. I loathe the day that the world echos the sentiments in books like 1984 and Brave New World. Hell, even Player Piano scares the bejeezus out of me. But that's what socialist agendas and praising homogeneity will bring. Guaranteed. A world of grey uniforms and pale faces. There is no room for individuality and alternatives in the path you suggest. For that alone, I'm willing to forego my winter heating bill, in exchange for that lovely tropical breeze y'all say is a-blowing.



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexccmeister View Post
    So in my humble opinion, it is good what is being done right now by some environmentalists.... So give them some credits is all I say.
    I humbly disagree: Environmetalists with too much political power will cause more harm than good - look at what foolish policies have been adopted in the name of saving the planet: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45545 Basic math skills should be a requirement for anyone in government.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexccmeister View Post
    All I can say is that change in this regard will be good... How much worse a situation is it going to be for us anyway? If climate change eventually is disproved, the legacy of that would be better technologies for all our benefit.
    Beware of unintended consequences: See post #14 at http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showth...t=46615&page=2



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    Every change produces a spectrum of consequences ranging from bad to indifferent to good. You get into a car wreck. It's bad for you and your car. It's good for the doctor and the mechanic that fixes you both up and it's of no importance to the person that reads about it in the paper.

    This is true for every change except global warming. Every consequence is bad with global warming. That sets off my BS alarm and it's ringing loud.

    What I'm hoping for is the claims get more and more outrageous. Global warming will turn the earth into a boiling ball of lava, the oceans will rise 5,000 ft and cause everyone to get acne and bad breath. Then this fever will run its course and then we can move on to the next calamity. I still have my parka for the past and coming global cooling.

    Mariss



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    Nickel/metal-hydride batteries are far more toxic to the environment than lead-acid batteries. Nickel is a heavy metal that congregates in the liver and brain. How pray tell, will you take your 6-8 batteries to the recycling center?
    The whole point of recycling the batteries is to keep the toxins out of the environment and the batteries will probably get to their destination by oil power. In case you have forgotten gasoline and it's combustion byproducts are also deadly toxins.
    Seems like a winning theory...let's continue. A hybrid mode vehicle is designed for in town driving, not highway. That's where the benefits of the technology shine.
    The prius still gets 42+ on the highway thanks to it's atkinson cycle engine and great aerodymics.
    So you need a car that costs almost $30,000 to manufacture (Toyota's details...I can give you a website when I get home. They take a loss on every Prius with the hopes that the technology is viable for mass production...) that weighs approximately 400 lbs more than my car (same manufacturer) to travel to the grocery store & WalMart?
    Toyota no longer takes a loss on the prius. they actually are turning a profit. They did that to show the skeptics the benefits of the technology. I didn't buy the car to drive to the store and back. I bought it because I drive 45,000 miles a year in the course of my work and it is safe, comfortable and saves me money.
    Not to be a smartass, but my Corolla gets almost 30 mpg cruising around town. I deliver pizzas as a second job, and my commission for 2 nights' runs pays for a tank of gas. Commission...not tips. I digress...
    Not to be a wiseguy but my Prius gets 45+ mpg in town, which is half again better than your corolla and it is indeed heavier which is an advantage if I should ever collide with a '65 beetle.
    I agree with you that the Prius is more driveable in today's conditions than a vintage Beetle. But to say that the Prius is better because it costs more and is more sophisticated is to buy into marketing and brand image. A vehicle is transport. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a penis extension, or your vehicular aura to the rest of the world.
    I swear I only bought the car because I needed the best transportation I could find.
    As for it being an extension of my penis, I plead the fifth.
    Back to that whiz-bang technology...I know that it seems really cool...but why would you need TWO electric motors in hybrid mode? What's the point? Most 48V DC motors in the size range that motivate the Prius are torque monsters...
    The reason the prius uses two motors is because of the way the power split device works to control the speed of the wheels vs engine.
    And as for very few moving parts in the system...it's still a LOT more than in my Toyota Corolla. The majority of the system is electronics...controllers & sensors & software. Something like 100 lbs. more electronic components than are in my car..
    If you read up on the subject you will find that the power split device takes the place of your conventional transmission and actually does have alot fewer moving parts. Electronics are not moving parts,and don't forget the prius is drive by wire which also eliminates alot of mechanical components.
    I'm not knocking you Grinderdust, I just don't see how the Prius is a better car for the environment than my Corolla.
    I hope the time I have taken to answer your questions will help you see how it might be.
    And I also don't see how anyone in the world has the right to judge someone for purchasing a Hummer with money that they earned.
    If you still want a hummer, I won't judge you. Just remember the hummer won't extend your "aura" either and it costs alot more to buy and drive. I'm just doing what works for me.
    When I have to purchase cookie-cutter clothes, components, houses & cars, because that's what "they" say is appropriate...where will innovation and research come into play?
    The hybrids are anything but cookie cutter. They are the bold standouts in the industry and are exactly the kind of innovation and research I like to put my money into. Heck, I am going to buy a car anyways so why not?



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    Mariss, I for one am boycotting the phrases "global warming" and "climate change" because they are broad and too far distant for most people to understand. If you can't see the consequences of environmental irresponsibility in your own backyard the just look up "eastern garbage patch" and you will see it on a more global scale. Just because you are in a comfortable position and can't feel it, doesn't mean pollution doesn't affect someone less fortunate every day. Only the wealthy and the polluters are feeling the bad consequences of the environmental legislation. The rest of humanity stands to benefit.



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    My dear friend, please don't throw that "wealth" thing around. I remember in the late '60s my eyes stinging from smog so thick you could look directly at the sun at 4PM. I cannot even remember the last smog alert here in Southern California. I remember being told as a kid in Ohio not to set step in the Miami river for all the industrial effluent it carried. People now fish in it and eat what they catch. Both wealthy and poor eyes stung and skin itched and mine were not wealthy.

    So much real progress has been made and 99% of the problems have been repaired. Don't say things aren't better unless you are too young to remember when they were much worse. That leaves 1% and it's in the region of diminishing returns.

    I offer for your consideration the ROHS debacle. In return for eliminating a minuscule percentage of the lead used in the world, a completely inferior production technique has been mandated for electronics manufacturers. Components have to be stressed at 50C higher temperatures, the resulting solder joints are clearly inferior and reliability is compromised. When something fails, the entire unit must be discarded now because ROHS renders rework to replace a component too difficult. Yes, you can eat solder paste now but your landfills are filling up with unrepairable electronics.

    Products that once were repaired are now discarded because few care to learn the skills to do that. Repairing something requires far less resources and energy than it took to make it originally. That's "environmentally friendly", "green", "responsible", "makes a difference" and all the other enviro-cliches.

    People who used to go into the service trades and become electronic technicians now yearn to become environmental scientists. That is much easier than having to learn something difficult like math or common scientific logic. Now all you have to do is "feel" or "believe", wring your hands and insist that the dwindling supply of the technically educated produce a solution; after all, if you can imagine it, it must be easy.

    That remaining 1% is at the mercy of unintended consequences. It will increase to a much bigger number if we dismantle our technological society. Low technology is dirty technology and all the billions of people will have no choice but to use it. Unless of course you eliminate people from the earth. Recently some of the greatest Environmental Philosophers have seriously proposed exactly that. It's nice they tip their hand to show just how spiritually degenerate and nihilist the movement is becoming.

    Mariss



  9. #49
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    What on earth is an "Atkinson Cycle" engine and how does it differ from an Otto Cycle?

    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.


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    Geof...here are a few of the "interesting" take offs on the spark-ignition internal combustion engine...

    http://www.answers.com/topic/atkinson-cycle

    http://www.answers.com/Miller%20cycle

    http://www.me.berkeley.edu/cal/HCCI/



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    Quote Originally Posted by WYLD View Post
    Geof...here are a few of the "interesting" take offs on the spark-ignition internal combustion engine...
    Thanks WYLD. I know the mechanism from way back but didn't know it was called Atkinson.

    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesman View Post
    And man will not destroy it nor will "Mother Nature" GOD will destroy this earth and all the evil that is in it. The best you can do for your childern is to teach them how to get saved and then when the rapture comes they will be lucky enough to be spared from all the nasty stuff that GOD has planed for mankind.
    Bluesman
    Pirates to the rescue.

    My god, the FSM has touched me with his noodly appendage and I have been healed. Global warming is really a matter of not enough pirates. It is a fact that as pirate numbers have diminished, world temperatures have gone up.

    Every night I clasp my hands and ask the noodly one for another day of annointed olive oil and garlic. Then I say, "Ramen" in ending and shut my eyes for a great nights sleep.

    Don't forget to talk like a pirate. You too can help avert global warming.


    Silly me, to think CO2 has nothing to do with it, and it's just a pissed off invisible friend after all. Why, I'm powerless to do a thing. Glad I have a clear concience that I'm not screwing my children's futures.



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    Quote Originally Posted by grinderdust View Post
    I also happen to drive a Prius....which might just save you some money on gas,...
    How far do you have to drive a Prius before you break even with the equivalent non-hybrid Corrola or Yaris model and start "saving money"?



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    to hell and back :-)'



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    I had to read this entire two pages to come up to full speed. Everyone seems to have locked into their own arguments and no longer are swayed one way or another. A prius on the face looks like a great way to go. Less visible polution, so it has to be right, right? Hmmm. Charge the batteries with electricity, where does it come from? How is it made? How efficiently is it made? BTU to BTU, the Prius isn't all that efficient. Heat losses for the steam, line losses, transformer losses... Unless it is derived from Nuclear energy, CO2 and other bad elements are tossed into the air. Acid rain anyone? Ever go east and see the damaged forests from the acid rain? A Prius is on par with Fuel cells. Different way to store energy, not really all that efficient when all things are considered.

    Mariss, Global warming is happening. Its sad that so much bad science preceeded it, and that there is such a huge movement to naysay it. My degree is one in subterfuge. There are agencies that do nothing more than pay people to come in and bombard websites with their form of propoganda. I mention this because there are a few posters with VERY high post numbers that have done nothing but posted in the Global Warming forum. I can't help but question their motives. You never see them give sources for the studies they quote.

    My respect keeps going up for you when I read you pay your workers not just a living wage, but a wage they can hold their heads up like men and women. I just don't agree with your views on this issue. Your ROHR(?) compliance argument is a good one but falls short whn you say landfills are filling with broken electronics. Long before they break they become obsolete, and we seem to always want the newest, flashiest gizmo out there. I don't see broken, I see old, and old isn 't even old anymore.

    What is hurting us more than anything else is the rampant consumerism we have embraced. It fuels the enegy needs, it fuels the polution from manufacture, it causes more grief than good.



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    Dynosor, I don't know how much a yaris or corolla costs, but I will try to shed some light on your question. I'm assuming by break even you mean make up the difference between the price of the cars. Since I was in the market for a car anyways and the prius is not what I would call an expensive car, I started saving money the first time I drove past a gas station. My winter car, a '98 Outback wagon, cost alot more new than the prius so everything is relative. It also should be noted that the prius is a top quality, safe ride and has a very high resale value. This car also really puts out when driven hard because it is always in the right gear. It never lugs when you floor it.

    Last time I filled up, gas was $3.18 a gallon. Assuming gas stays at that price (which it won't) at 46 mpg (my real and verified lifetime average for the prius, driving hard) It will take 2,174 gallons of fuel to go 100,000 miles and cost $6,913. If your car averages 25 mpg in the real world (which is a stretch even for a honda believe me I know) it will take 4000 gallons of fuel and cost you $12,720. Since my prius will soon round the 100,000 mile mark I have saved about $5,807 on the cost of the fuel alone. It is my belief that the environmental savings is worth much more. The impact of manufacturing, shipping, storing and burning nearly 2000 gallons of fuel is much more than making and disposing of the batteries. In a couple of years I will trade up for the next generation prius and enjoy even better fuel economy and power thanks to the lithium ion batteries they are planning to use. The new batteries will also be easier on the environment.

    MrWild, The prius does not get its power from a plug. It uses it's own kinetic energy by using a generator to slow the car and store energy that would otherwise be wasted on friction brakes. It also shuts off the engine when you take your foot off the gas, and uses a thermos to bottle hot coolant and keeep the engine warmed up for less emissions.
    A Prius is on par with Fuel cells. Different way to store energy, not really all that efficient when all things are considered.
    When all things are considered it is about the most efficient option available at this time. If there is something better I would love to drive it so please let me know.
    What is hurting us more than anything else is the rampant consumerism we have embraced. It fuels the enegy needs, it fuels the polution from manufacture, it causes more grief than good.
    I couldn't agree more. If everyone only used what they needed, we wouldn't have such a mess. Also manufacturers should be held responsible for the end life disposal of the products they make. Plastic is great but it's permanent, and should not be used to make goods that are used once and tossed. It is also not as recyclable as some people think. I also agree with what you are saying to Mariss. Lead in the workplace and in the environment is not a good thing and the laws may be hurting his wallet but It may improve the health of his employees, which is priceless. I believe the technology will catch up and may just lead to a better process in the end. The only thing that puzzles me is that they use a ton of lead making car batteries and such so why is that not a big deal? Why pick on one industry and not the other? The only reason I can see is because you absolutely can't make a lead acid battery without the lead. Electronics on the other hand seem to be pretty reliable without the lead, even if it costs a little more to manufacture.

    I apologize to everyone for hijacking this thread. It all started with one little post. I guess If I have to defend my decision to buy a hybrid car, recycle and reduce waste, and live a clean life that my children may learn and appreciate, I will.



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    where is the episode on the prius of south park when you need it. by the way, 10000 mile already! how long is your commute?



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    [QUOTE=MrWild;368694]There are agencies that do nothing more than pay people to come in and bombard websites with their form of propoganda. I mention this because there are a few posters with VERY high post numbers that have done nothing but posted in the Global Warming forum. I can't help but question their motives.

    MrWild,

    You are brilliant! You have noticed something I completely missed. Something smelled funny here but you put the finger on it; posters whose names I haven't seen anywhere else. You were the one to notice it.

    If you are right, we all may be the unwelcome recipients of an outreach program to educate us technical savages into the right way of thinking. Think of it as a Mission Outpost erected amongst the heathen to attend to their global warming spiritual needs.

    How do we know if it's true or not? We do research! The holiday weekend is coming up and I just set a mission for myself. I will compare names against posts. Any name that has even one coherent CNC-related technical post will pass. The working assumption is the purported missionaries are not technical people and wouldn't know a mill from a lathe; they live in a more spiritual realm.

    I'll be doing this for my own amusement. I have no interest in "outing" or embarrassing individuals and I never would because it's unkind. I'm only interested to see if there is a trend and I'll only be doing what anyone else can if they wish.

    Let's see what happens. I'll tabulate the aggregate results.

    Mariss



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    4thseal, It's not so much the commute,my office is at the bottom of my stairs. It's the field work. I drive all over five counties doing real estate appraisal. And to think I gave up the predictable gloom of a cozy machine shop for this! More money = more stress.



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    i live in s cal and i thought i drive great deal.i hope you have a nice stereo!



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