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    Member Westjava's Avatar
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    Default about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    this is my first job. does anyone have an example c program for press brake with KFLOP + KANALOG board?

    I have connected the KFLOP + KANALOG to the press brake machine. and I've tested the input output using GCODE in Kmotion.exe and everything is correct as the original. only for DACS 0 to DACS 3 I have not tested it. I use DACS 0 plan for Analog Amplifier (Axis Y1), DACS 1 for Analog Amplifier (Axis Y2), DACS 2 for Pressure and DACS 3 for Crowning.
    Yesterday I tried moving the axis but it didn't move, I saw the voltage in the Analog Status (Kmotion) for the DACs only came out 0.48 volts.

    my first question, can I test the c program in Kmotion and connect the KFLOP + KANALOG to the Analog Amplifier Press brake machine? to drive hydraulic.

    second, can the hydraulics move, if the Analog Amplifier for Pressure and Crowning has no voltage? because I see my normal machine, Analog Amplifier Presure and Crowning have a voltage of 5 volts. and if RAM goes down, Analog Amplifier (Axis Y1 and Y2) -5 volts, if it rises +5 volts.

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    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    I have connected the KFLOP + KANALOG to the press brake machine. and I've tested the input output using GCODE in Kmotion.exe and everything is correct as the original.
    Don't run GCode until after you have the Axes configured, tested, and tuned.


    I use DACS 0 plan for Analog Amplifier (Axis Y1), DACS 1 for Analog Amplifier (Axis Y2), DACS 2 for Pressure and DACS 3 for Crowning.
    I assume Y1 and Y2 are the hydraulic cylinders to move the Press up and down? I understand crowning is used to compensate for flex of the table? I wouldn't think that would be needed for basic operation. What is "Pressure" used for?



    Yesterday I tried moving the axis but it didn't move, I saw the voltage in the Analog Status (Kmotion) for the DACs only came out 0.48 volts.
    To get more DAC voltage increase the max limits on the Step Response Screen. For example with max error of 200 and P Gain of 0.4 the max output voltage will be:

    200 x 0.4 = 80 DAC counts

    80 / 2048 x 10V = 0.4V


    can I test the c program in Kmotion and connect the KFLOP + KANALOG to the Analog Amplifier Press brake machine? to drive hydraulic.
    Don't create a C Program until after you have the machine configured and tested using the Step Response Screen



    second, can the hydraulics move, if the Analog Amplifier for Pressure and Crowning has no voltage? because I see my normal machine, Analog Amplifier Presure and Crowning have a voltage of 5 volts. and if RAM goes down, Analog Amplifier (Axis Y1 and Y2) -5 volts, if it rises +5 volts.
    Its up to you to understand how your machine works. To command DAC voltages to DACs not used by an Axis you can use DAC Commands on the Console Screen. ie DAC2=1024 DAC3=1024 to apply 5V

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Member Westjava's Avatar
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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    I assume Y1 and Y2 are the hydraulic cylinders to move the Press up and down?
    that's right sir

    What is "Pressure" used for?
    If RAM is not able to press / bend the workpiece, valve proportional for pressure will be increased to increase the pressure automatically.


    Step Response for the / ch axis is executed independently, can it be run together? so I can set it to sync.
    I'm afraid the RAM will skew, if I test one by one.
    is there a solution for that sir?

    if so, I will still try one by one, but not too far away. I hope I succeed.

    Last edited by Westjava; 08-08-2020 at 08:47 PM.


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    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    If RAM is not able to press / bend the workpiece, valve proportional for pressure will be increased to increase the pressure.
    I don't understand. Wouldn't the Y1 Y2 valves do this?


    Step Response for the / ch axis is executed independently, can it be run together? so I can set it to sync.
    I'm afraid the RAM will skew, if I test one by one.
    is there a solution for that sir?
    Please read this.


    if so, I will still try one by one, but not too far away. I hope I succeed.
    Yes make very small moves first.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Member Westjava's Avatar
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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    recently I tried moving the CH1 axis, and it managed to go up. but to move down, still can't. and a new problem, the axis can't hold the position, always moving down by about 1mm / minute.

    when moving up, the analog Amplifier needs +8 volts, below it can not (possibly due to the influence of gravity and load).

    after that I have not tried again to move down, I want to find more information, so as not to take a wrong step.

    when moving up, I see Step Response Command and position are not the same, and the output cannot adjust the position / command, only straight (as if there is no Acceleration or Deceleration).

    below is the tuning that i did:

    P = 1, I = 0, D = 0

    Max limits:
    output = 1024, integrator = 100, error = 700

    motion profile:
    V = 400000
    A = 40000
    J = 40000

    Dead band range = 1, dead band gain = 1

    My Questions 1. Where is my tuning error?

    Question 2. How to rate / assign values for V, A and J?
    is there a formula for that?

    Question 3. Do I have to configure the DAC for valve pressure so that it is compatible with the linear encoder? because earlier I only gave a fixed voltage of +8 volts from the DAC.



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    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    Please answer the question in my last post. It is important. Before trying to tune the system we should understand how each part of the machine works.


    recently I tried moving the CH1 axis, and it managed to go up. but to move down, still can't. and a new problem, the axis can't hold the position, always moving down by about 1mm / minute.
    If the axis is servoing and tuned properly it should hold position.


    when moving up, the analog Amplifier needs +8 volts, below it can not (possibly due to the influence of gravity and load).
    Which amplifier? Seems wrong to need 80% of full scale to move at all. Are you referring to both of the hydraulic valves? Or Pressure DAC?


    when moving up, I see Step Response Command and position are not the same, and the output cannot adjust the position / command, only straight (as if there is no Acceleration or Deceleration).

    below is the tuning that i did:

    P = 1, I = 0, D = 0

    Max limits:
    output = 1024, integrator = 100, error = 700
    Max error of 700 and PGain 1 would limit the output to 700 DAC counts (3.4V). I thought you said it took 8V to move? Post a plot of Command, Position, and Output.


    Question 2. How to rate / assign values for V, A and J?
    is there a formula for that?
    V = Velocity in encoder counts/sec A = Acceleration in encoder counts/sec^2 J = Jerk in encoder counts/sec^3

    What is the resolution of your encoder?


    Question 3. Do I have to configure the DAC for valve pressure so that it is compatible with the linear encoder? because earlier I only gave a fixed voltage of +8 volts from the DAC.
    You will need to research how your machine is supposed to work. Or run experiments to figure it out.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Member Westjava's Avatar
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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    I don't understand. Wouldn't the Y1 Y2 valves do this?
    yes, Y1 Y2 valve which performs rising and falling. direction up and down direction.
    and a pressure amplifier to adjust the pressure.

    Which amplifier? Seems wrong to need 80% of full scale to move at all. Are you referring to both of the hydraulic valves? Or Pressure DAC?
    Pressure DAC (+8 volt).
    hydraulic valves(Y1= 3.4 volt ).

    Max error of 700 and PGain 1 would limit the output to 700 DAC counts (3.4V). I thought you said it took 8V to move? Post a plot of Command, Position, and Output.
    i did tuning only for axis (CH1) and DAC (3,4 volts).
    while +8 volts for DAC pressure, I gave it via the kmotion.exe console

    Post a plot of Command, Position, and Output.
    I don't know how to add pictures. how do i add a picture on the forum?

    What is the resolution of your encoder?
    this data from my linear encoder:

    Measuring standard = 20 um
    Accuracy grade = ± 10 ?m (± 0.0004 in.)
    model = LS623 HEIDENHAIN
    Max. traversing speed = 60 m/min (2362 ipm)
    Vibration(55 to 2 000 Hz) = 30 m/s2(IEC 60 068-2-6)
    Shock(11 ms) = 200 m/s2(IEC 60 068-2-27)

    i still have doubts about the proportional valve for pressure. Should it be adjusted by a linear encoder or does it have to set its own voltage?
    I have sent the valve diagram and press brake oil flow in the email.



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    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    yes, Y1 Y2 valve which performs rising and falling. direction up and down direction.
    and a pressure amplifier to adjust the pressure.
    I believe Y1 and Y2 are +/-10V analog proportional valves. So I would expect them to control pressure. Please explain what the Pressure control is needed for.


    I don't know how to add pictures. how do i add a picture on the forum?
    click on the insert image button and upload the file.


    this data from my linear encoder:

    Measuring standard = 20 um
    The encoder probably has a 20um pitch scale. But the resolution is probably something else. Please determine what the resolution is.


    i still have doubts about the proportional valve for pressure. Should it be adjusted by a linear encoder or does it have to set its own voltage?
    Good question. You will need to determine how it is supposed to be used.


    I have sent the valve diagram and press brake oil flow in the email.
    Please post all information here.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  9. #9
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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    51/5000
    this is a diagram of my engine's valve and oil flow.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails about setup KFLOP+KANALOG-diagram-oil-press-brake1-jpg  


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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    how to test with 2 hydraulics?, because if only one, it will be skewed. and a little dangerous.



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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    how to test with 2 hydraulics?, because if only one, it will be skewed. and a little dangerous.

    can the Configuration & Flash output 2 DACs?



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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    Configure as Master/Slave Axes. See also here.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    What is the resolution of your encoder?
    100/mm

    just now, I can already test 2 hydraulics. but the plot results are not perfect. the value for V A J is still I'm looking for. as well as P I D. I need information to determine it.



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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    this is data from my linear encoder LS 623 HEIDENHAIN

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails about setup KFLOP+KANALOG-ls-623-png  


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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    this is a plot image, what's wrong with this.
    ram can hold the position, but ram Y1 with Y2 difference of 4mm.
    I made Y1 the master. Please help.
    what should i change?

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails about setup KFLOP+KANALOG-img_20200815_103306-jpg  


  16. #16
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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    please teach me how to set V, A and J.



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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    this is a plot image, what's wrong with this.
    Can you see that the Position (red) is not changing?

    Can you see how much Output (green) is going to the Amplifier?

    Can you see the plot time is only showing us the first 0.1 seconds? Change to 3 seconds.

    Remove the Deadband it only causes confusion (Set Range to 0 Gain 1)


    please teach me how to set V, A and J.
    Please explain your understanding of Velocity.


    Please don't take photos of the screen. Use Alt-Print Screen to copy to clipboard, paste into paint.exe, save as an *.png file.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Please explain your understanding of Velocity.
    speed to move towards the target. if wrong please correct.

    i try :
    P= 1.6 I=0 D=0
    output=2047
    integral=200
    error=100000

    V=400000
    A=40000
    J=4000000

    step 3 time,sec and size 90

    but the position still doesn't move up or down. what to arrange, in order to move.

    what happens if I give A less?
    and what happens if V, I give it a smaller value?

    maybe if it still can't move, I will change the input channel to ADC and output to DAC.
    I want to see if it can move.

    can i do that at kmotion.exe?



  19. #19
    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    speed to move towards the target. if wrong please correct.
    yes, maximum speed


    size 90
    This is a very small quick move of less than a mm.


    what happens if I give A less?
    A=Acceleration=rate of change of velocity


    maybe if it still can't move, I will change the input channel to ADC and output to DAC.
    No the input mode for should be Encoder.


    Make a bigger slower move. Post Screen Captures of the Step Response, Configuration, and Filters Screens.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  20. #20
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    Default Re: about setup KFLOP+KANALOG

    This is the image for the CH0 (slave) and CH1 (master) configuration.

    Please correct me, if I am wrong.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails about setup KFLOP+KANALOG-master-jpg   about setup KFLOP+KANALOG-slave-jpg  


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