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  1. #61
    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Is the 4000 RPM the Spindle RPM or the axes motor's RPM?

    The supply voltage must be DC. Do you understand the difference between AC and DC? Regulated and unregulated?

    Is there an existing original power supply?

    Note there is also a "regenerative braking" issue to be aware of. When a mass/motor stops, mechanical energy is converted to electrical energy. The motor acts like a generator. Think of conservation of energy. The energy must go somewhere. The energy will normally be injected backwards into the power supply. Some power supplies don't like this. They like to give power but not receive it. The voltage can rise and damage the supply or the amplifier. Unregulated supplies with big capacitors are better at absorbing energy.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  2. #62
    Member Gunmachinist's Avatar
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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Is the 4000 RPM the Spindle RPM or the axes motor's RPM?

    The supply voltage must be DC. Do you understand the difference between AC and DC? Regulated and unregulated?
    Yes, I was referring to spindle speed I forgot were talking about servos..

    Somewhat, I know the definition of AC/DC as for what they do, not really. Regulated and unregulated, No, Ill look that up. The most training on electrical I had was when I was in the NAVY 20 years ago, but haven't worked with is sense.

    Is there an existing original power supply?
    .
    No. I do have 2 xtra power supplys but its 12v and 24v. The power supply I do have are AC to DC.

    Last edited by Gunmachinist; 07-11-2020 at 08:28 PM.


  3. #63
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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunmachinist View Post
    I'm not sure these are the same that came with the boss. I believe the machine I have was retrofitted around 1992 +/-. Here is a pic of the servos and machine so you get an idea of what im working with.
    Most of those Bridgeport Boss mills originally came with steppers. A friend of mine has a very similar machine that we retrofitted nearly 20 years ago with geckodrives and turbocnc, kept using the origional stepper motors. Still running today and he still uses it regularly.

    Those motors should work fine with the right encoder and drive. Sounds like you guys are on the right track.

    One more thing about that machine. My friends had variable speed pulleys for rpm adjustment and they were worn a little. He eliminated all those pulleys and used a single ratio with timing belts and then added a VFD to adjust speed. He seemed to think it was a much better setup. Just passing along the info in case your drive system causes the same trouble. Good luck with the project



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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    I was able to get my first axis wired up and the servo is spinning. I have the Z axis amp to servo, encoder, limitswitch all wired to 0. Now do I need to ballance the servo or establish the ability to communicate with the software?



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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Not sure what you mean by "spinning" or all those things "wired to 0".

    Please put more effort into describing what you did.

    Once the hardware is interfaced you can use this method to begin testing.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Not sure what you mean by "spinning" or all those things "wired to 0".
    Spinning: the 5/8 shaft of the servo motor was spinning (moving in a circular motion) clockwise. Best I can do. may be called something different in California but down here in the south we call it spinning, It's what happens when you go in a circular motion.

    Please put more effort into describing what you did.

    Once the hardware is interfaced you can use this method to begin testing.
    SRY, I was typing at work on my phone during break and didn't have time to explain in detail. Thanks again for your help...

    Here is a drawing of how I have the wires connected at this moment.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?-mill-servo-wiring-jpg  


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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Spinning: the 5/8 shaft of the servo motor was spinning (moving in a circular motion) clockwise. Best I can do. may be called something different in California but down here in the south we call it spinning, It's what happens when you go in a circular motion.
    I was looking for a description of how it was spinning. ie. was it spinning out of control? Was it creeping when it should be stopped? Was it servoing and moving in a controlled manner the number of revolutions commanded? What were you commanding it to do? What was it doing?


    SRY, I was typing at work on my phone during break and didn't have time to explain in detail. Thanks again for your help...

    Here is a drawing of how I have the wires connected at this moment.
    The wiring diagram doesn't have any of the connections labeled. We can see you have 11 wires going to the amplifier but not what they are connected to.

    The Encoder should be a +5VDC device and should be supplied +5VDC. Normally it would receive +5VDC from Kanalog. But you show it connected to the Amplifier. This seems wrong. Please don't power up the system until you understand this.

    A limit switch connected to an opto input will not work. Just like a light switch connected to a light bulb will not cause the light to come on. A power supply is required. You might use your 24VDC power supply, run it through the switch and the opto to form a circuit.

    HTH

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Made some corrections, Is this better?

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?-mill-servo-wiring-jpg  


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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Hi Gunmachinist,

    Better but:

    #1 - it seems you are wiring the 24V motor power through a KFLOP Opto output. Opto Outputs can only switch small currents 0.025Amps not 11Amps. There should be a direct GND connection between the Motor Power Supply and the Amplifier.

    #2 - The encoder is still getting its +5V power from the Amplifier instead of Kanalog. +5V and -5V would apply 10V to the encoder not +5V and also the +/-5V from the amplifier is only good for 3ma. Probably not sufficient to power an encoder.

    #3 - Limit switch seems unclear and all wrong. Consider how you would connect a battery, a switch, and a light bulb in a circuit (complete loop). The Opto is similar to a light bulb.
    is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?-bulb-jpg

    #4 - the green wire from the motor (probably a shield) should probably be connected to Earth GND not Motor Power GND.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Gunmachinist,

    Better but:

    #1 - it seems you are wiring the 24V motor power through a KFLOP Opto output. Opto Outputs can only switch small currents 0.025Amps not 11Amps. There should be a direct GND connection between the Motor Power Supply and the Amplifier.
    Im going somewhat off one of the drawings(2nd one down) on your wiki site, which shows 24v power routed through JP15.


    #2 - The encoder is still getting its +5V power from the Amplifier instead of Kanalog. +5V and -5V would apply 10V to the encoder not +5V and also the +/-5V from the amplifier is only good for 3ma. Probably not sufficient to power an encoder.
    Where should I connect it, I'm lost as you can see.

    #3 - Limit switch seems unclear and all wrong. Consider how you would connect a battery, a switch, and a light bulb in a circuit (complete loop). The Opto is similar to a light bulb.
    So how would I connect it? I'm lost but if I could get one connected and operating I think I could get the rest connected correctly.

    #4 - the green wire from the motor (probably a shield) should probably be connected to Earth GND not Motor Power GND.
    Corrected.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?-mill-servo-wiring-jpg  


  11. #71
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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Gunmachinist,

    Better but:

    #1 - it seems you are wiring the 24V motor power through a KFLOP Opto output. Opto Outputs can only switch small currents 0.025Amps not 11Amps. There should be a direct GND connection between the Motor Power Supply and the Amplifier.

    Im going somewhat off one of the drawings(2nd one down) on your wiki site, which shows 24v power routed through JP15.
    Correct but the +24V is routed to the enable input signal of the Amplifier not the main power input.



    #2 - The encoder is still getting its +5V power from the Amplifier instead of Kanalog. +5V and -5V would apply 10V to the encoder not +5V and also the +/-5V from the amplifier is only good for 3ma. Probably not sufficient to power an encoder.
    Where should I connect it, I'm lost as you can see.
    Connect to any +5V terminal on Kanalog and any GND terminal on Kanalog.



    #3 - Limit switch seems unclear and all wrong. Consider how you would connect a battery, a switch, and a light bulb in a circuit (complete loop). The Opto is similar to a light bulb.
    So how would I connect it? I'm lost but if I could get one connected and operating I think I could get the rest connected correctly.
    The circuit current should flow in a loop from the power supply, through the Opto, through the switch, then back to the supply. Just like the light switch circuit posted.

    Add a wire from +24V to Opto In 0 +
    Add a wire from Opto In 0 - to the switch
    Add a wire from the other switch pin to 24V-


    #4 - the green wire from the motor (probably a shield) should probably be connected to Earth GND not Motor Power GND.
    Corrected.
    No Earth GND and Power GND should not be connected

    The 24V Power supply probably shouldn't have an Earth GND. (remove the Green GND from it)

    Add a wire between power supply 24V- and Servo Amp Power GND

    I'm tempted to just make the corrections for you, but then I worry you will not understand them, not be able to do the next steps, possibly wire things incorrectly. So please have patience.

    On an additional it isn't clear what the unmarked 5 wires from the motor actually are. So we are guessing they are the motor leads, tachometer leads, and shield. Having these wrong may cause damage. How did you determine what they are?

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I'm tempted to just make the corrections for you, but then I worry you will not understand them, not be able to do the next steps, possibly wire things incorrectly. So please have patience.
    Absolutely. Is there anywhere I need an earth ground?

    On an additional it isn't clear what the unmarked 5 wires from the motor actually are. So we are guessing they are the motor leads, tachometer leads, and shield. Having these wrong may cause damage. How did you determine what they are?
    Thats the best I can figure, I can't find any wiring information for these servos.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?-mill-servo-wiring-jpg  


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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Progress

    Is there anywhere I need an earth ground?
    Grounding is very complex. I think your Earth grounding (green wiring) is basically all wrong. Assuming the G terminal on the motor is the shield/case of the motor (you could verify this with an ohm meter testing for continuity). that is the only thing that should be connected to Earth GND. Remove all the other green wiring,

    The Green wire to the 24V Power Supply, I'm not sure what that is (again no label on the connection) should probably be removed.

    The black wire (I'm assuming that is the Encoder GND for the 5V) should be connected to a Kanalog GND - Not Earth GND.

    The limit switch wiring looks correct


    Thats the best I can figure, I can't find any wiring information for these servos.
    You could probably verify with an ohm meter. The Tach resistance is usually much higher than the motor resistance. Also there shouldn't be any continuity (very high resistance) between the tach and motor wires.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    The grrn wires are just routed through that terminal strip not to earth. Coloring them green just helps me see what im doing.

    The tach wires from the servi motor are white(+) and white/black(-) possibly pos(+) and neu/neg(-).



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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Here's an updated drawing, I added a terminal strip for the 24v power so I could better route power.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?-mill-servo-wiring-jpg  


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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    The tach wires from the servi motor are white(+) and white/black(-) possibly pos(+) and neu/neg(-).
    I don't understand what you mean or how you know this or if you measured the resistance as I requested.



    The grrn wires are just routed through that terminal strip not to earth. Coloring them green just helps me see what im doing.
    It seems all wrong. I think all the green wiring should be removed, with the exception of the one earth ground connection to the servo motor case. Otherwise you have the encoder GND, the power supply Ground (not even sure what this is), the encoder GND, and the Amplifier Power GND all shorted together which would be bad.

    So:

    #1 remove all the green wires
    #2 connect the encoder GND to any Kanalog GND

    Note Power Supplies can be confusing. It isn't clear what kind of 24V and 5V supplies you have. Firstly they should be separate and isolated. You show one box with both. Maybe you have a PC ATX Power supply? Those have a common GND which is not ideal.

    Secondly there are 24V supplies and dual supplies that output both +24V and -24V. It isn't clear what type you have. With a simple single ended +24V supply the "return" pin is sometimes called GND, sometimes called 0V, and sometimes called 24V return, and sometimes called 24V-. So hopefully your Power Supply Pin marked 24V- is really a GND not actually -24V. If you measure the voltage from 24V+ to 24V- do you measure 24V or 48V? (do not connect anything to the power supply before understanding this).

    HTH

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I don't understand what you mean or how you know this or if you measured the resistance as I requested.
    I don"t have an ohm meter so I have no way of doing this.




    Note Power Supplies can be confusing. It isn't clear what kind of 24V and 5V supplies you have. Firstly they should be separate and isolated. You show one box with both. Maybe you have a PC ATX Power supply? Those have a common GND which is not ideal.

    Secondly there are 24V supplies and dual supplies that output both +24V and -24V. It isn't clear what type you have. With a simple single ended +24V supply the "return" pin is sometimes called GND, sometimes called 0V, and sometimes called 24V return, and sometimes called 24V-. So hopefully your Power Supply Pin marked 24V- is really a GND not actually -24V. If you measure the voltage from 24V+ to 24V- do you measure 24V or 48V? (do not connect anything to the power supply before understanding this).

    HTH
    See pic it's actually Comm I was mislabeling it.The power supply I have installed will supply 25V and 5v from different connections.

    Would I still connect the black power wire from servo encoder to a Kanalog ground if it were a 5V comm connection?

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?-20200720_042952-jpg   is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?-mill-servo-wiring-jpg  
    Last edited by Gunmachinist; 07-20-2020 at 06:00 AM.


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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunmachinist View Post
    I don"t have an ohm meter so I have no way of doing this.
    Doing a CNC retrofit without a multi meter is like trying to build a house without a measuring tape!

    Well worth the money to buy a decent meter. At the very least get a cheap one, they can be had for next to nothing these days. Watch some youtube videos about proper use and all the features. Every extra thing you learn like that will help you out in the end with your project.



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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    I don"t have an ohm meter so I have no way of doing this.
    You should obtain one. They are very important to have. Here is one for $10 on Amazon.



    Would I still connect the black power wire from servo encoder to a Kanalog ground if it were a 5V comm connection?
    Yes from a noise perspective I think that is best.

    The diagram now looks correct to me!

    I'm not sure what the Relay Connections are.

    It would be good to give KFLOP the ability to Enable/Disable the Motor Drive. I believe switching the Amplifier's Inhibit pin to Signal Ground will disable the drive. A KFLOP Opto Out should work for this. You might also read this and this.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

    Ok, guys. I think I may be loosing my mind, I do have a fluke and another cheap multimeter, I apologize. I was thinking of an O scope for some reason.



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is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?

is the Dynomotion controll as confusing as it seems?