MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice


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Thread: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

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    Default MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Hey guys, so I have this MAHO , all 3 servo drives are working as should, all motors are also working , the spindle drive and motor is also there. The MAHO has it's original glass linear scales on each axis, the readhead is Philips PE2580/20, I assume I would need to connect the outputs from each of the 3 scales into my Kanalog board, any advice on how to or maybe someone here has done it already?
    I think I have located the possible Kanalog board analog outputs for my differential control voltage +-10 volts for each of my 3 servo drives, they are on the JP11 connector named DACS outputs. Is this correct? So I take one of the dacs and one of the grounds and connect them to each of my 3 servo drives? Like DAC 1 and GND 1 to my first drive and then DAC2 and GND 2 top my second drive etc?


    I would also probably need to connect my axis limit switches to the Kanalog and probably connect them simply in series so that if either one is hit the Knalog board stops the drives? Or should I connect them separately?

    Anyway I probably left out something here , any help or advice is very very appreciated, thank you.

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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Hi,

    The MAHO has it's original glass linear scales on each axis, the readhead is Philips PE2580/20, I assume I would need to connect the outputs from each of the 3 scales into my Kanalog board
    Most likely yes. Do you have or did you search for specifications? Are they differential encoders? See FAQ Single ended vs Differential.

    To have a stable system with linear scale feedback it is usually necessary to also have feedback from the motor shafts. Are there encoders or tachometers on the motors connected back to the motor Drives?


    I think I have located the possible Kanalog board analog outputs for my differential control voltage +-10 volts for each of my 3 servo drives, they are on the JP11 connector named DACS outputs. Is this correct?
    Yes that sounds correct.


    So I take one of the dacs and one of the grounds and connect them to each of my 3 servo drives? Like DAC 1 and GND 1 to my first drive and then DAC2 and GND 2 top my second drive etc?
    Yes, but the 8 DACs are numbered 0-7 so you would normally wire DAC0 to the first drive.


    I would also probably need to connect my axis limit switches to the Kanalog and probably connect them simply in series so that if either one is hit the Knalog board stops the drives? Or should I connect them separately?
    Kanalog has 8 24V Opto isolated inputs on JP15. Separately is better if you have enough inputs so KFLOP can tell which axis is in the limit and also which end of the limit. See configuring Limit Switch Options.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Well I don't know what type of reader the original Philips PE2580 is , whether differential or single ended , tried searching but can't find any luck.Maybe someone here can tell me ?
    All I know for now is that the cable coming out of the reader head block is orange and has 7 wires inside and a screen, each of the seven wires is a different color.


    As for the limit switches , well I will have to take a closer look at them but in general should I take some external power supply and power each of the switches so that if it is pushed the external dc voltage will go through the switch into the Kanalog JP15 corresponding input or does the JP 15 gives out a 24v voltage itself and each of the pairs can be attached to a single switch and as the switch closes the voltage given by the Kanalog board on the JP15 goes to short and so the board knows that specific switch has closed?
    What are the neighboring JP13 connector for?

    thank you.



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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Hi,

    Well I don't know what type of reader the original Philips PE2580 is , whether differential or single ended , tried searching but can't find any luck.Maybe someone here can tell me ?
    All I know for now is that the cable coming out of the reader head block is orange and has 7 wires inside and a screen, each of the seven wires is a different color.
    Probably differential. Differential normally have:

    A+ A- B+ B- +5V Gnd 6 wires plus shield

    The + and - complementary signals should be a twisted pair of wires. Often like Green and Green/white.

    You might check with a voltmeter. The + and - signals should be complementary. When one is high the other is low.


    As for the limit switches , well I will have to take a closer look at them but in general should I take some external power supply and power each of the switches so that if it is pushed the external dc voltage will go through the switch into the Kanalog JP15 corresponding input or does the JP 15 gives out a 24v voltage itself and each of the pairs can be attached to a single switch and as the switch closes the voltage given by the Kanalog board on the JP15 goes to short and so the board knows that specific switch has closed?
    Yes a separate isolated 24V power supply should be used for the limit switch circuity in order to keep all the wiring isolated from other KFLOP/Kanalog circuits.

    Think of the Opto Inputs like light bulbs. You must connect 24V to them to turn them on. And the + terminal must be positive relative to the - terminal.


    What are the neighboring JP13 connector for?
    JP13 are opto isolated Outputs. Those are similar to low current (25ma max) switches than can be used to control things. They might be used to enable amplifiers or turn on the Spindle VFD or set the Spindle VFD direction,

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Ok so for the limit switches I can simply take a 24v dc source connect the - or gnd to each of the opto input gnd or - terminals and take the positive output of the 24v source and route it to each of the switches, then the other wire from each of the switches I can simply attach to each of the positive + opto terminal inputs, so whichever switch will close it will then pass the +24 to the +terminal of that opto input , right?


    is there any schematic on how to wire such differential linear scales to a Kanalog board? It seems to me that terminals JP1 and JP2 could be used as they have lots of +- inputs and then JP8 terminal has some +5v outputs which could be used to power the scale read head, right?



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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Ok so for the limit switches I can simply take a 24v dc source connect the - or gnd to each of the opto input gnd or - terminals and take the positive output of the 24v source and route it to each of the switches, then the other wire from each of the switches I can simply attach to each of the positive + opto terminal inputs, so whichever switch will close it will then pass the +24 to the +terminal of that opto input , right?
    yes



    is there any schematic on how to wire such differential linear scales to a Kanalog board? It seems to me that terminals JP1 and JP2 could be used as they have lots of +- inputs and then JP8 terminal has some +5v outputs which could be used to power the scale read head, right?
    correct. Is a schematic really necessary? There are some example wiring diagrams here.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Müllernick scoped the Phillips encoders on has MAHO 700 conversion a few years ago. He couldn't decode the output (and he's a guy whole designed his own servo amps). You will probably have to replace the encoders with some stardard off the shelf TLL encoders like the Ditrons.

    Regards,
    Mark


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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    is there any reference of thread where this "Mullernick" has written about these Phillips encoders and their unsuitability to the Kanalog board input?



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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Hi salvador12,

    I think RotarySMP is right that the scales are non standard and will probably need to be replaced. Googling I found this on the LinuxCNC forum.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    It was in this german language thread on his LinuxCNC conversion of the 700C.
    Peters CNCECKE

    It would be well worth you time to read this thread through google translate. Very impressive how he rolled is own motor drivers, including programming the micros in assembler.

    Regards,
    Mark


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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    I guess I have to ask then , what would you folks recommend me to do, should I use encoders on each of the servo motors and they would be good enough in accuracy or should I buy some modern linear scales that are compliant with Kflop Kanalog,

    by the way are there any known linear scales as well as rotary encoders that are known to work great with Kanalog and be reliable?
    Any advice is appreciated.



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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Hi salvador12,

    I guess I have to ask then , what would you folks recommend me to do, should I use encoders on each of the servo motors and they would be good enough in accuracy or should I buy some modern linear scales that are compliant with Kflop Kanalog,
    Linear scales would be best. But there should also be feedback from the motor shafts. Do you know if the motors have encoders or tachometers?


    by the way are there any known linear scales as well as rotary encoders that are known to work great with Kanalog and be reliable?
    Any advice is appreciated.
    Most any optical digital incremental (not absolute) encoders that have differential outputs should work well. I prefer optical encoders rather than magnetic or capacitance types because they are typically based on lines microns wide instead of magnets millimeters wide so need much less interpolation so are more precise. Although optical encoders are more prone to contamination.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    The original servo motors have only built in tachogenerators with feedback back to the original drive amplifiers. nothing more.



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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    The original servo motors have only built in tachogenerators with feedback back to the original drive amplifiers. nothing more.
    That's good. Some feedback from the motor shafts is usually required to have a stable system with linear scale feedback.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    but if i put rotary incremental encoders on the servo motors then I have no linear scales , could I just do with those rotary encoders or should I instead put linear scales?



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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    but if i put rotary incremental encoders on the servo motors then I have no linear scales , could I just do with those rotary encoders or should I instead put linear scales?
    Linear Scales are almost always preferred as they have the big advantage that more mechanical errors can be corrected. Because the actual table position is being measured, and is known, the servo will keep making adjustments until the table is at the desired position. Things like lead screw errors, backlash, compliances, etc. can be potentially eliminated. With only rotary encoders the Servo can position the motor/leadscrew correctly, but any mechanical errors between that and the table will remain uncorrected.

    Note however that even though the feedback loop will attempt to correct these errors they will not necessarily be completely eliminated. How large the errors will be is dependent on the dynamics of the system. The dynamics will determine how quickly corrections can be made.

    One disadvantage with Linear Scales is that because more mechanical issues are in the feedback loop it can be less stable and more difficult to tune. This is why velocity feedback from the motor shafts is useful. Otherwise controlled motion of the motors can be difficult. For example when moving through backlash the Linear Scales don't provide any information at all.

    So in summary, I'd suggest adding new Linear Scales and keep the tachometer feedback to your amplifiers.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Oh right. The Indramat closes the velocity control loop, with the tachos, while the control (Phillips432, or in my case LinuxCNC through MESA 7i77) closes the position loop with the linear encoders. If you rip out the Indramat, you are missing the velocity control loop.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice-two-loop-feedback-jpg  
    Regards,
    Mark


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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Yes I would keep the existing drives and power supplies if possible. Here is a simple test to check that you have found where to inject the +/-10V Velocity command as well as have them powered and enabled.

    There are many other "dumb" drives that allow tachometer feedback to control velocity. a-m-c.com is one source.

    HTH

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Well ofcourse I am keeping the tacho feedback to the drive amplifiers, otherwise my servo motors would not work.
    Yes I am keeping the original indramat drives and servo motors and they all work by inputing a differential voltage of +-10 volts so I can just connect them to the respective kanalog output pins.

    I guess at first I will set up incremental rotary encoders on each of the servos since the original linear scales will not be working with the Kanalog, if the accuracy wont be good enough then I will also buy new linear scales so that each axis will then have both a rotary as well as a linear scale.

    Now since the shafts are good enough , what incremental rotary encoders would you suggest, what would be the maximum pulse rate I should be looking for because I suppose the Kanalog and Kflop has a maximum resolution that it can take in above which there is no use to go.


    PS. is it normal that when the servo motors are enabled (the thyristor drive signal is applied to the input in the amplifier) that when I decrease the differential input voltage to zero which corresponds to a standstill of the motor the motor itself is humming sort of like vibrating , the motor is standing still and actually it's rotor ir almost feels like magnetically locked yet it's humming, now since a DC permanent magnet servo motor is just well a DC brushed motor, what is happening in this moment? Is it okay for it to be like that because normally motors get overheated and burn down when stalled etc, I suppose the amplifier is sending some sort of a anti phase voltage to the motor or what is exactly happening here can you explain?

    each servo motor also has a brake but i suppose the brake is not used whenever the motor simply is stopped in a waiting position for each axis right?



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    Default Re: MAHO 1000 c hardware with Kanalog KFlop controller advice

    Now since the shafts are good enough , what incremental rotary encoders would you suggest, what would be the maximum pulse rate I should be looking for because I suppose the Kanalog and Kflop has a maximum resolution that it can take in above which there is no use to go.
    KFLOP/Kanalog conservatively accept up to 1 million quadrature counts/second. So for example if the max RPM of the encoder is 3000RPM then the maximum encoder resolution will be:

    1e6 / (3000/60) = 20,000 counts/rev or 5000 lines or cycles per rev.

    PS. is it normal that when the servo motors are enabled (the thyristor drive signal is applied to the input in the amplifier) that when I decrease the differential input voltage to zero which corresponds to a standstill of the motor the motor itself is humming sort of like vibrating
    Its hard to say whether that is the Drive Switching or analog noise being picked up. I'm not familiar with those Drives but switching frequency is usually higher than a "hum". Usually > 10KHz. 60 cycle noise being picked up in the analog wiring either in the +/-10V input or the tachometer could cause a 60 or 120 Hz "hum". If you had KFLOP/Kanalog connected you could plot how much encoder motion is occurring and at what frequency. I doubt it would cause motor damage. Monitor the motor temperature.

    the motor is standing still and actually it's rotor ir almost feels like magnetically locked
    The velocity feedback (tachometer) will attempt to maintain zero velocity with a command of zero input. If the Velocity loop it working well it will be very hard to move the motor. When not trying to resist motion the motor current/torque should be very low.

    each servo motor also has a brake but i suppose the brake is not used whenever the motor simply is stopped in a waiting position for each axis right?
    Normally the brake is only used to avoid motion after a loss of power. Such as to stop the Z axis falling down.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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