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Thread: Morbidelli U13 conversion to Kflop+Kanalog

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    Default Morbidelli U13 conversion to Kflop+Kanalog

    Hi guys!

    This is my first "proper" post in this forum, so please bear with me if I'm missing some of the lingo... :-)

    I have just picked up an old Morbidelli U13 cnc router (back in the day it was actually called a machining center), and I am going to replace the ancient TRIA 4000 controller with Mach3 and Kflop.
    I have used Mach3 and steppers on smaller machines previously, but this is my first project involving large DC servos.
    The servo amplifiers expect +/-15VDC as control signal, and the machine comes with both tacho and encoder on all three servos.

    https://www.woodmercator.com/produkt...1506409940.pdf

    The main reason of my current headache is how to solve the fixed offsets on the boring spindles, as I would like to be able to use all 9 vertical, 2 horisontal, and the slitting saw in addition to the main (routing) spindle.
    The two vertical spindles, and the slitting saw is mounted together on one pneumatic cylinder, the nine boring spindles each have their own cylinders, and the main spindle also has its own cylinder.
    There is only one servo and lead screw for the Z-axis.

    A tool change goes something like this:
    Z-axis retracts to the "safe height"
    Spindle motor stops
    The routing spindle is lifts pneumaticly
    The machine moves a certain amount in both X and Y
    The selected boring spindle is lowered pneumaticly
    Spindle motor starts
    Z-axis moves down to the work and starts the boring operation.


    The way i see it there are two main issues;
    1: How to control the digital outputs on Kflop/Kanalog from within Mach3 (to control pneumatic valves)?
    2: How to automatically insert tool offsets in both X and Y when calling up a new tool?


    I know my way around relays and vfd's , but I am really bad at everything to do with programming a computer, so please talk to me as you would talk to a child! :-)


    Best regards
    Asle from Norway

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Morbidelli U13 conversion to Kflop+Kanalog

    Quote Originally Posted by AsErBo View Post
    Hi guys!

    This is my first "proper" post in this forum, so please bear with me if I'm missing some of the lingo... :-)

    I have just picked up an old Morbidelli U13 cnc router (back in the day it was actually called a machining center), and I am going to replace the ancient TRIA 4000 controller with Mach3 and Kflop.
    I have used Mach3 and steppers on smaller machines previously, but this is my first project involving large DC servos.
    The servo amplifiers expect +/-15VDC as control signal, and the machine comes with both tacho and encoder on all three servos.

    https://www.woodmercator.com/produkt...1506409940.pdf

    The main reason of my current headache is how to solve the fixed offsets on the boring spindles, as I would like to be able to use all 9 vertical, 2 horisontal, and the slitting saw in addition to the main (routing) spindle.
    The two vertical spindles, and the slitting saw is mounted together on one pneumatic cylinder, the nine boring spindles each have their own cylinders, and the main spindle also has its own cylinder.
    There is only one servo and lead screw for the Z-axis.

    A tool change goes something like this:
    Z-axis retracts to the "safe height"
    Spindle motor stops
    The routing spindle is lifts pneumaticly
    The machine moves a certain amount in both X and Y
    The selected boring spindle is lowered pneumaticly
    Spindle motor starts
    Z-axis moves down to the work and starts the boring operation.

    The way i see it there are two main issues;
    1: How to control the digital outputs on Kflop/Kanalog from within Mach3 (to control pneumatic valves)?
    2: How to automatically insert tool offsets in both X and Y when calling up a new tool?
    Sounds like quite a machine! Should be a nice project.

    1. I would recommend you just use KmotionCNC. Seems to be headaches when using Mach 3 and KmotionCNC will do everything you need. Setting outputs is fairly easy with kanalog. You can use the relay driving outputs or opto outputs to control your pneumatic valves. Kmotioncnc can be configured to turn these on and off with M codes or in your case you will probably need a custom C program for a toolchange that retract one spindle and extend another depending on which tool is requested. Shouldnt be too hard to do.

    2. I think Kmotioncnc already has X and Y offsets built into the tool table. See pic here: https://dynomotion.com/Help/KMotionC...olTable600.png

    Good luck with it.

    Mark



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    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Morbidelli U13 conversion to Kflop+Kanalog

    Hi Asle,

    The servo amplifiers expect +/-15VDC as control signal, and the machine comes with both tacho and encoder on all three servos.
    +/- 10V Analog would be much more likely. You might perform this simple test to apply 1.5V see if you can make the motors move and that they move 15% of full speed.

    The main reason of my current headache is how to solve the fixed offsets on the boring spindles, as I would like to be able to use all 9 vertical, 2 horisontal, and the slitting saw in addition to the main (routing) spindle.
    The two vertical spindles, and the slitting saw is mounted together on one pneumatic cylinder, the nine boring spindles each have their own cylinders, and the main spindle also has its own cylinder.
    There is only one servo and lead screw for the Z-axis.

    A tool change goes something like this:
    Z-axis retracts to the "safe height"
    Spindle motor stops
    The routing spindle is lifts pneumaticly
    The machine moves a certain amount in both X and Y
    The selected boring spindle is lowered pneumaticly
    Spindle motor starts
    Z-axis moves down to the work and starts the boring operation.


    The way i see it there are two main issues;
    1: How to control the digital outputs on Kflop/Kanalog from within Mach3 (to control pneumatic valves)?
    2: How to automatically insert tool offsets in both X and Y when calling up a new tool?
    Are you dead set on using Mach3? Mach3 has been unsupported for many years. Our free KMotionCNC will provide higher performance motion.

    With KMotionCNC you can use tool table xy offsets to handle the different Spindle locations.

    In either case you will need to do some programming to handle your specific Tool Change Sequence. Here is one example on our wiki for KMotionCNC.



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    Default Re: Morbidelli U13 conversion to Kflop+Kanalog

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Asle,

    +/- 10V Analog would be much more likely. You might perform this simple test to apply 1.5V see if you can make the motors move and that they move 15% of full speed.

    Are you dead set on using Mach3? Mach3 has been unsupported for many years. Our free KMotionCNC will provide higher performance motion.

    With KMotionCNC you can use tool table xy offsets to handle the different Spindle locations.

    In either case you will need to do some programming to handle your specific Tool Change Sequence. Here is one example on our wiki for KMotionCNC.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    Sounds like quite a machine! Should be a nice project.

    1. I would recommend you just use KmotionCNC. Seems to be headaches when using Mach 3 and KmotionCNC will do everything you need. Setting outputs is fairly easy with kanalog. You can use the relay driving outputs or opto outputs to control your pneumatic valves. Kmotioncnc can be configured to turn these on and off with M codes or in your case you will probably need a custom C program for a toolchange that retract one spindle and extend another depending on which tool is requested. Shouldnt be too hard to do.

    2. I think Kmotioncnc already has X and Y offsets built into the tool table. See pic here: https://dynomotion.com/Help/KMotionC...olTable600.png

    Good luck with it.

    Mark
    Dear Tom and Mark,
    Thank you both for your very clear answers!

    I must admit that I had not done much research into KmotionCNC, but having been home from work a few days (flu season) I've spent quite a lot of time on YouTube, and you guys seem to have me convinced!
    In the tool table there was an entry for what plane the tool operates in, does that mean that I will be able to use the two fixed drills in YZ? That would be really great for making cabinets!

    Mark, I might have to ask you for some help with the custom C program, as this is really not my field ;-)

    Tom, you are of course right, it is +/-10VDC, I was just momentarily confused by the +/-15VDC output of the servo drives, and in addition to the ancient controllers internal supply of +/-15V...
    I have triple checked the manual for the drives, and it is indeed 10, not 15!

    Last weekend I planned Saturday and half of Sunday to get the machine to run with the old controller, all of Saturday was spent trying to figure out why the 8" CRT monitor did not work.
    After a LOT of fiddling and scratching my head, a small (M2,5 i think) nut fell out of the stack of PCBs, apparently it was shorting one of the 12V lines to gnd, and it so happened that this was a dedicated power supply for the monitor.

    I do not dare call the seller and ask him how long the machine was sitting "dead" due to a faulty monitor, instead I'll just be super happy that I got it at a killer price! :-P

    Sunday was spent putting the controller back in, and trying to enable the drives, but due to lack of compressed air, and some yet unexplained fault in the emergency stop circuitry I did not manage to get them enabled, so the battery trick could not be performed.

    I am a bit reluctant to pull all the wiring until I have tested the machine with the original controller, as I would like to verify that all systems are functional before I start converting...

    And just to add insult to injury, the control cabinet have been placed atop the work table, so everything is sideways :-)

    And to top it off, the workshop that houses the machine is 650Km away from where I live, so next opportunity to play with it will be during christmas...

    Anyway, what I wanted to say was; thank you! :-)

    Best regards
    Asle



  5. #5
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Morbidelli U13 conversion to Kflop+Kanalog

    The main reason of my current headache is how to solve the fixed offsets on the boring spindles, as I would like to be able to use all 9 vertical, 2 horisontal, and the slitting saw in addition to the main (routing) spindle.
    The two vertical spindles, and the slitting saw is mounted together on one pneumatic cylinder, the nine boring spindles each have their own cylinders, and the main spindle also has its own cylinder.
    There is only one servo and lead screw for the Z-axis.
    You basically have your tool change macro enable and disable the appropriate pneumatics based on the tool number, and apply the proper offset for the tool being used.



    In the tool table there was an entry for what plane the tool operates in, does that mean that I will be able to use the two fixed drills in YZ? That would be really great for making cabinets!
    You don't really need to do this. Just drop the horizontal spindles, move the Z axis down to the correct height, and do standard G1 moves in X or Y for drilling.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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Morbidelli U13 conversion to Kflop+Kanalog

Morbidelli U13 conversion to Kflop+Kanalog