Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion


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    Default Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hay Tom,
    Been meaning to ask about this for a while. Have you thought about adding a fill in the blanks Gcode Generator to KmotionCNC? To do things like Bolt hole circles, Rectangle mill, Circle Mill, Pocket Mill. I believe this would make KmotionCNC an even more awesome control. And make it a different KCNC version that would be extra cost?

    Anyhow, guess iam trying to open a new can of worms again.

    Thanks,
    Troy

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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Dont really mean to bash the idea but its probably not as worthwhile anymore. Fusion360 cad/cam is free to hobbyists and I think there are other CAM options available for cheap these days. Probably would be alot of work to add something like that to kmotioncnc and maybe not a whole lot of value anymore since CAM software is more available. Might be useful to some people i guess.



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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Thats true also. But me being from a job shop background , its much faster to program at the machine with controls like Hurco, Milltronics and even Prototraks. Especially when you just need a simple pocket or bolt hole. There is also some operators/general machinist that pick up a control's conversational side much easier than CAD/CAM. Plus when Fusion is out to lunch on a cloud somewhere or internet is down, you can keep programming one off simple jobs.

    www.tsjobshop.com, www.homecncstuff.elementfx.com


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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hi Troy,

    Do you think that could be done with the Existing Screen Editor? Create a bitmap image of something like a bolt hole circle with dimensions. Then place Edit Controls for all the parameters (number of holes, radius, offset, etc.). Then have a button run a program to create the GCode. If you were to create the screen and describe exactly how the GCode should be created I could probably write the code to create the GCode for you. Several new functions might need to be added like MergeGCodeFileToOpenFile or such.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    PC based conversational is available through KipwareM maybe ... KipwareM - Conversational CNC CAM Programming Software for Milling
    Generates compatible code out-of-the-box.



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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    This is something I did start working on, in an attempt to learn how to use Visual Studio to create PC programs (I can handle coding processors/webpages, but full blown software is something I've never really done), but more important projects got in the way, so it got side tracked.

    My big problem was coming up with a suitable software framework, as I just couldn't get my head around how more complex programs work, and I didn't want to invest too much time if I was going to have to re-write things.
    If somebody wanted to create a suitable framework, I'd be happy to work on the code required for creating G-code via various dialogues.

    Tom, I'm not sure if it could be done via the screen editor, especially if you were relying on KFlop C programmes to handle the g-code generation, as there is quite a bit of text manipulation needed.
    If you want, I can dig out the screen mockups/layout sketches I done, so you can see how I imagined things would work. I should still have the visual studio project somewhere, but it may only be on my old laptop, which I'll have to dig out and see if it'll limp into life.



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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hi m_c,

    Tom, I'm not sure if it could be done via the screen editor, especially if you were relying on KFlop C programmes to handle the g-code generation, as there is quite a bit of text manipulation needed.
    I don't see the text manipulation in C being that great or difficult. It does seem silly to make KFLOP do the work when the PC is available. But doing things on the PC requires Users learning yet another Language, Interface to KMotionCNC, Environment, Compiler or scripting etc. But then it wouldn't be hard to add some hooks so a PC program could read/write screen controls, create the GCode and push it back to KMotionCNC. Most of that functionality exists with the Screen Editor and Measure Fiducial Programs which are separate C# programs.

    If you want, I can dig out the screen mockups/layout sketches I done, so you can see how I imagined things would work.
    If they are handy I'd like to see and hear other's feedback.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Tom, just sent you an email (to your tk@dynomotion email, which I hope still works..)

    To me, I see this more as adding conversational programming capability, rather than adding the ability for users to create screens/programs to do conversational programming.
    Given the amount of work that it would ultimately involve, I'm not sure whether having all the code publically available would be that advisable.

    I've had a look at my sketches, and since I very much doubt anybody will be able to interpret my scribbles, I'll make some new ones over the next couple of days.



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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Troy,

    Do you think that could be done with the Existing Screen Editor? Create a bitmap image of something like a bolt hole circle with dimensions. Then place Edit Controls for all the parameters (number of holes, radius, offset, etc.). Then have a button run a program to create the GCode. If you were to create the screen and describe exactly how the GCode should be created I could probably write the code to create the GCode for you. Several new functions might need to be added like MergeGCodeFileToOpenFile or such.

    Regards
    Hi Tom,
    I will make some screens with the layout and post back. Most likely this weekend. Thanks for considering this idea.

    Troy

    www.tsjobshop.com, www.homecncstuff.elementfx.com


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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    I've been giving this idea more thought, and there are couple areas that I'm struggling to fit into an overall system, so am looking for peoples thoughts on them

    First up, I'll clarify a couple details.
    The more common title for what this thread is about, is Conversational Programming. Within each file you create, you can have one or more individual operations that are created by entering required values.

    So the bits I'm struggling to fit in to the overall scheme.
    1) Once a file has been created, would you like the ability to be able to edit the operations within that file at a later date?
    2) How would you prefer to enter the required speeds/feeds?
    3) Would you use the ability to re-order operations?
    4) How much do you think this would be worth?


    Here's my thoughts.
    1) From a usability point, I can see it being a major advantage. Click to edit, have the operation screen pop-up with the existing parameters, edit what you need to, click a button, then the g-code file gets updated with the new code.
    From a programming point, in order to keep everything contained within the g-code file, it's quite involved with parsing/checking/updating.
    2) I'd quite like some form of database, so you can create a basic library of previously used speeds/feeds for each tool and material. Select a tool for an operation, then up pops a list of previously used speeds/feeds for various materials. However this does have the potential to lead to a lot of information either of little use, or hard to present in a user friendly way. Another possibility is the addition of a basic speeds/feeds calculator.
    3) This although sounds good, but would it actually be used? I'm struggling to think of a realistic scenario where you would actually want to re-order operations..
    4) I have my thoughts, and I know what Tom's thoughts are, but am interested in other peoples'.



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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    The word conversational is owned (patented) by a "big machine tool" company. Thats why i didnt use it.
    So the bits I'm struggling to fit in to the overall scheme.
    1) Once a file has been created, would you like the ability to be able to edit the operations within that file at a later date?
    2) How would you prefer to enter the required speeds/feeds?
    3) Would you use the ability to re-order operations?
    4) How much do you think this would be worth?
    1) This would be nice. Or maybe an easier approach for now, would be to have a history in the operation page of last data entered in fields.
    2)Per each operation. Refer to my screen example of Bolt Circle to get a better idea of what i have in mind.
    3)Hmmm...No/maybe...dont think that would be necasary. To me thats getting more into CAM than a quick simple program.
    4)This would be more up to Dynomotion, But i would think that an option when purchasing KFLOP that you could use either the current KMotionCNC or pay extra for the intergrated GCode generator. (KCode??) That said i think an extra price of $100-$200??

    Here's my thoughts.
    1) From a usability point, I can see it being a major advantage. Click to edit, have the operation screen pop-up with the existing parameters, edit what you need to, click a button, then the g-code file gets updated with the new code.
    From a programming point, in order to keep everything contained within the g-code file, it's quite involved with parsing/checking/updating.
    2) I'd quite like some form of database, so you can create a basic library of previously used speeds/feeds for each tool and material. Select a tool for an operation, then up pops a list of previously used speeds/feeds for various materials. However this does have the potential to lead to a lot of information either of little use, or hard to present in a user friendly way. Another possibility is the addition of a basic speeds/feeds calculator.
    3) This although sounds good, but would it actually be used? I'm struggling to think of a realistic scenario where you would actually want to re-order operations..
    4) I have my thoughts, and I know what Tom's thoughts are, but am interested in other peoples'.
    1) Thats what i was thinking. Another proprietary protection might be to have the code posted out, be something other than Gcode?
    I think the approach for starters should be simple. No more options than what is needed. A history/library of previous speed feed would be nice, but think that would be more than what is needed.
    Attached is an example of what i had in mind. The example is of a bolt circle operation. Made screens out of what ever controls i could use to make it look like what i had in mind. Also am using my custom screens.

    Troy

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    www.tsjobshop.com, www.homecncstuff.elementfx.com


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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    It's maybe a patent (shouldn't it technically be a trademark for the name?), but most people know what conversational coding is, and most control manufacturers use 'conversational' in their marketing blurb, even if they name their system something else.

    Anyway, your thoughts are mostly along the same lines as mine.
    The main reason I'm asking about some more advanced features, is when I'm designing something, I like to think about the ultimate end goal, so I can try and build a suitable structure from the beginning, rather than have to re-write huge chunks later to add features.

    Depending on what Tom has planned, I'm thinking about working on my program again. I have started adding a bolt circle routine, just to see how much I've forgotten since I last worked on the program. If I get it finished, and you're interested to try it, PM your email and I'll send a copy across if I get it done.


    However, what I'd personally like to see added to KMotionCNC first, is proper handling of metric/imperial.



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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hi mc,
    Unless something has changed, in order for others to use the word conversational in marketing there product or anything such, they must buy the license to the word.
    I too would like to see this as a part of KMCNC, but i am interested in testing for you also. I have tried several standalone software and most of them are to much like a CAD/CAM system. Or they just dont function correct and are poorly supported.

    I think the metric/inches setting,as far as making a program, could just default to what the machine is set to. If that makes things easier and more fail safe coding.

    Thanks,
    Troy

    www.tsjobshop.com, www.homecncstuff.elementfx.com


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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hi Troy,

    Unless something has changed, in order for others to use the word conversational in marketing there product or anything such, they must buy the license to the word.
    I'm curious where do you see that. Everyone seems to use it. Originally with IBM.


    I loaded your Bolt Circle Screen:

    Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion-boltcircle-jpg

    The Drop Downs and Radio Buttons are not currently supported in the Screen Editor. Maybe use Toggle buttons or just enter a name or a code.


    Regarding Editing Operations - I like the idea of special comments that add a header and footer to the block of GCode. The Header would contain the name of the Operation that created the GCode. Also all the parameters would be listed such as:

    ( Operation:BoltHoleCircle Revision=1.0)
    ( Parameter:Radius=3.0 )
    ( Parameter:OffsetX=4.5 )

    It seems like that would allow easy modification of the operation block. To reorder Operations just select the operations and cut/paste them to new positions.


    It seems 2 directions are being proposed:

    #1 - use the KMotionCNC Screen Editor to do the GUI and graphics. Then have a "Generate" Button create the GCode by launching a PC Program. Possibly written in C# to read all the Parameters, Validate it, Create the GCode, and Merge it back to the open file.

    Additionally some mechanism where if an Operation in the GCode Window is selected the entry controls in the screen can be re-loaded from the GCode Comments. Maybe with a "Reload Operation" button. Or possibly by selecting the operation in the GCode Window and Right-click "Edit Operation" it could automatically open the screen of the Operation name and refill the blanks with the parameters

    One problem I see is that all the Conversational Screens would need to be update to match whetever overall Screen set the User wants to use.Unless the User is ok with having them have a different look.

    #2 - use C# to do everything: The GUI, Graphics, and Generate the GCode.

    In this case the screens would likely have a different look and be pop-ups rather than more integrated.

    I'm thinking both methods could use the same code to generate the GCode and update the GCode. The difference is in case #1 the application would be invisible and and just read the screen. In case #2 the application would have a GUI to enter/display all the parameters

    How much of this do you think makes sense?

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Either option would work, however I can see the appeal of the more integrated option.

    I've spent some time today adding Bolt Hole Circle functionality to my program, and to check the resultant code I've been copying and pasting to the code editor in KMotionCNC and simulating it.
    From that, I think keeping it within KMotionCNC makes the most sense, provided we can create the required screens that can pass the data to an external program for the code generation. The ability to see the generated code in the Viewer would be very handy.

    However, I can see the second option as being a lot easier, especially from a development and debugging points.
    For development it would allow the testing of different methods for re-loading values, and updating values. Once a suitable method has been developed it could then be implemented into KMCNC.

    And as you've already said, the same code can be used for generation, which will be where the vast majority of work is likely to be, so I don't see many issues with trying different methods.



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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hi Tom,
    The word was patented by Hurco years ago. They confronted Haas years ago about using there word conversational without getting a license from them. Haas refused to pay for it and ended up in a lawsuit. Hurco of course won as they owned it. Over the years Hurco has contacted other software developers that was marketing using there word without them buying a license and would tell them to stop or buy the licensing. The software i know about had no idea conversational was owned by anyone and just came up with there own descriptive phrase. Like my idea of " KCode"

    As for Screen Editor functions. Iam up for whatever is supported and can easily be selected and set by TAB,Arrows and enter key. So it would have a more industrial approach of not using a mouse to point and click.
    Headers of each operation would be great. And just simply cut and paste as you said would be good also.

    Right clicking on an operation to edit and having it open and auto fill sounds nice. So after edit is done would the operation in file be updated or would user have to delete the original from file?

    For me, i dont see an issue with the Screens all looking the same. All conversational controls i have ran are like this. Keeps it simple.
    Like the idea of having this integrated into KMCNC more than a seperate app. Or at least if it would appear that it is integrated. Less confusing for an operator/user if there is not another software to use on the machine control. Centroid does this for some of there operations. Its kinda clumsy and hangs up sometimes.

    Troy

    www.tsjobshop.com, www.homecncstuff.elementfx.com


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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Need TECH Help! View Post
    Hi Tom,
    The word was patented by Hurco years ago. They confronted Haas years ago about using there word conversational without getting a license from them. Haas refused to pay for it and ended up in a lawsuit. Hurco of course won as they owned it. Over the years Hurco has contacted other software developers that was marketing using there word without them buying a license and would tell them to stop or buy the licensing. The software i know about had no idea conversational was owned by anyone and just came up with there own descriptive phrase. Like my idea of " KCode"
    This almost seems to be hard to believe they could patent such a widely used word, but according to google, it looks to be true: https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Hurco......-a066010578

    What a bunch of crooks. I always liked Hurco machines but stupid legal cases like this make me sick. I dont think I would ever buy a Hurco machine now after reading this lol.



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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hi murray,
    Ya its kind of garbage to have a patent on a word. But its really not much different than any other patent on something else. I think the worst part about it is Haas was so stubborn that he refused to simply just purchase a license of the word and keep on going. I cant really blame Hurco for suing. Haas himself made it a mess. I think this is kind of why Haas version of conversational is so weak.

    www.tsjobshop.com, www.homecncstuff.elementfx.com


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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Need TECH Help! View Post
    Hi murray,
    Ya its kind of garbage to have a patent on a word. But its really not much different than any other patent on something else. I think the worst part about it is Haas was so stubborn that he refused to simply just purchase a license of the word and keep on going. I cant really blame Hurco for suing. Haas himself made it a mess. I think this is kind of why Haas version of conversational is so weak.
    I guess so. Just seems low to me. Its not like they created a unique word to name or describe their control, this one is right out of the dictionary lol.

    Seems to me like the only conversational programming with a real following is Mazatrol on Mazak lathes. I sort of see the use for conversational on a lathe. You can do pretty much everything with it. But Mazatrol is not widely used for mills. Just way too much variation in Mill parts IMO. A simple bolt pattern and pocket toolpath like you guys are saying might be nice though. And im sure you guys with figure it out.



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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Ya its kind of garbage to have a patent on a word. But its really not much different than any other patent on something else
    Wow this is interesting. Somehow I missed all the drama including Gene Hass going to prison. Hass is fairly close to me and many many years ago I even interviewed there. But I'm thinking the patent is on the idea/concept not so much the specific word. I think their patent has recently expired or soon will.

    It seems they also had some amazing patents that were basically any CNC machine with a computer, CRT, and memory. I think that was what won many of their licenses.

    As for Screen Editor functions. Iam up for whatever is supported and can easily be selected and set by TAB,Arrows and enter key. So it would have a more industrial approach of not using a mouse to point and click.
    Hmmm. The Tab order is not currently easily set in the Screen editor. The Tab order of the Edit Input Controls is fixed. So you must choose them in order and place them on your screen carefully. I see on your Bolt Circle example they sort of jump around.

    Right clicking on an operation to edit and having it open and auto fill sounds nice. So after edit is done would the operation in file be updated or would user have to delete the original from file?
    I think we could make it update the selected operation. Although some way of doing an "Update Current" or "Insert New" would probably be needed. I can't think of an simple way other than having two buttons.

    For me, i dont see an issue with the Screens all looking the same. All conversational controls i have ran are like this. Keeps it simple.
    Like the idea of having this integrated into KMCNC more than a seperate app. Or at least if it would appear that it is integrated. Less confusing for an operator/user if there is not another software to use on the machine control. Centroid does this for some of there operations. Its kinda clumsy and hangs up sometimes.
    I'm not sure I follow your point. I was saying that it might be very difficult to make all the screens look the same. Let's say we end up with 50 KCode screens that all have a certain size and style. Then the User wants to change his main operator screen to a different size and style. The KCode Screens will then all look different. The only solution I see to this is to have the screens inherit styles and dynamically resize (like C# WPF or web pages), which is way beyond the scope of the KMotionCNC Screen Editor.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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