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Thread: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

  1. #13
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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hi mc,
    Unless something has changed, in order for others to use the word conversational in marketing there product or anything such, they must buy the license to the word.
    I too would like to see this as a part of KMCNC, but i am interested in testing for you also. I have tried several standalone software and most of them are to much like a CAD/CAM system. Or they just dont function correct and are poorly supported.

    I think the metric/inches setting,as far as making a program, could just default to what the machine is set to. If that makes things easier and more fail safe coding.

    Thanks,
    Troy

    http://www.homecncstuff.elementfx.com/


  2. #14
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hi Troy,

    Unless something has changed, in order for others to use the word conversational in marketing there product or anything such, they must buy the license to the word.
    I'm curious where do you see that. Everyone seems to use it. Originally with IBM.


    I loaded your Bolt Circle Screen:

    Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion-boltcircle-jpg

    The Drop Downs and Radio Buttons are not currently supported in the Screen Editor. Maybe use Toggle buttons or just enter a name or a code.


    Regarding Editing Operations - I like the idea of special comments that add a header and footer to the block of GCode. The Header would contain the name of the Operation that created the GCode. Also all the parameters would be listed such as:

    ( Operation:BoltHoleCircle Revision=1.0)
    ( Parameter:Radius=3.0 )
    ( Parameter:OffsetX=4.5 )

    It seems like that would allow easy modification of the operation block. To reorder Operations just select the operations and cut/paste them to new positions.


    It seems 2 directions are being proposed:

    #1 - use the KMotionCNC Screen Editor to do the GUI and graphics. Then have a "Generate" Button create the GCode by launching a PC Program. Possibly written in C# to read all the Parameters, Validate it, Create the GCode, and Merge it back to the open file.

    Additionally some mechanism where if an Operation in the GCode Window is selected the entry controls in the screen can be re-loaded from the GCode Comments. Maybe with a "Reload Operation" button. Or possibly by selecting the operation in the GCode Window and Right-click "Edit Operation" it could automatically open the screen of the Operation name and refill the blanks with the parameters

    One problem I see is that all the Conversational Screens would need to be update to match whetever overall Screen set the User wants to use.Unless the User is ok with having them have a different look.

    #2 - use C# to do everything: The GUI, Graphics, and Generate the GCode.

    In this case the screens would likely have a different look and be pop-ups rather than more integrated.

    I'm thinking both methods could use the same code to generate the GCode and update the GCode. The difference is in case #1 the application would be invisible and and just read the screen. In case #2 the application would have a GUI to enter/display all the parameters

    How much of this do you think makes sense?

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  3. #15
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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Either option would work, however I can see the appeal of the more integrated option.

    I've spent some time today adding Bolt Hole Circle functionality to my program, and to check the resultant code I've been copying and pasting to the code editor in KMotionCNC and simulating it.
    From that, I think keeping it within KMotionCNC makes the most sense, provided we can create the required screens that can pass the data to an external program for the code generation. The ability to see the generated code in the Viewer would be very handy.

    However, I can see the second option as being a lot easier, especially from a development and debugging points.
    For development it would allow the testing of different methods for re-loading values, and updating values. Once a suitable method has been developed it could then be implemented into KMCNC.

    And as you've already said, the same code can be used for generation, which will be where the vast majority of work is likely to be, so I don't see many issues with trying different methods.



  4. #16
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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hi Tom,
    The word was patented by Hurco years ago. They confronted Haas years ago about using there word conversational without getting a license from them. Haas refused to pay for it and ended up in a lawsuit. Hurco of course won as they owned it. Over the years Hurco has contacted other software developers that was marketing using there word without them buying a license and would tell them to stop or buy the licensing. The software i know about had no idea conversational was owned by anyone and just came up with there own descriptive phrase. Like my idea of " KCode"

    As for Screen Editor functions. Iam up for whatever is supported and can easily be selected and set by TAB,Arrows and enter key. So it would have a more industrial approach of not using a mouse to point and click.
    Headers of each operation would be great. And just simply cut and paste as you said would be good also.

    Right clicking on an operation to edit and having it open and auto fill sounds nice. So after edit is done would the operation in file be updated or would user have to delete the original from file?

    For me, i dont see an issue with the Screens all looking the same. All conversational controls i have ran are like this. Keeps it simple.
    Like the idea of having this integrated into KMCNC more than a seperate app. Or at least if it would appear that it is integrated. Less confusing for an operator/user if there is not another software to use on the machine control. Centroid does this for some of there operations. Its kinda clumsy and hangs up sometimes.

    Troy

    http://www.homecncstuff.elementfx.com/


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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Need TECH Help! View Post
    Hi Tom,
    The word was patented by Hurco years ago. They confronted Haas years ago about using there word conversational without getting a license from them. Haas refused to pay for it and ended up in a lawsuit. Hurco of course won as they owned it. Over the years Hurco has contacted other software developers that was marketing using there word without them buying a license and would tell them to stop or buy the licensing. The software i know about had no idea conversational was owned by anyone and just came up with there own descriptive phrase. Like my idea of " KCode"
    This almost seems to be hard to believe they could patent such a widely used word, but according to google, it looks to be true: https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Hurco......-a066010578

    What a bunch of crooks. I always liked Hurco machines but stupid legal cases like this make me sick. I dont think I would ever buy a Hurco machine now after reading this lol.



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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hi murray,
    Ya its kind of garbage to have a patent on a word. But its really not much different than any other patent on something else. I think the worst part about it is Haas was so stubborn that he refused to simply just purchase a license of the word and keep on going. I cant really blame Hurco for suing. Haas himself made it a mess. I think this is kind of why Haas version of conversational is so weak.

    http://www.homecncstuff.elementfx.com/


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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Need TECH Help! View Post
    Hi murray,
    Ya its kind of garbage to have a patent on a word. But its really not much different than any other patent on something else. I think the worst part about it is Haas was so stubborn that he refused to simply just purchase a license of the word and keep on going. I cant really blame Hurco for suing. Haas himself made it a mess. I think this is kind of why Haas version of conversational is so weak.
    I guess so. Just seems low to me. Its not like they created a unique word to name or describe their control, this one is right out of the dictionary lol.

    Seems to me like the only conversational programming with a real following is Mazatrol on Mazak lathes. I sort of see the use for conversational on a lathe. You can do pretty much everything with it. But Mazatrol is not widely used for mills. Just way too much variation in Mill parts IMO. A simple bolt pattern and pocket toolpath like you guys are saying might be nice though. And im sure you guys with figure it out.



  8. #20
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Ya its kind of garbage to have a patent on a word. But its really not much different than any other patent on something else
    Wow this is interesting. Somehow I missed all the drama including Gene Hass going to prison. Hass is fairly close to me and many many years ago I even interviewed there. But I'm thinking the patent is on the idea/concept not so much the specific word. I think their patent has recently expired or soon will.

    It seems they also had some amazing patents that were basically any CNC machine with a computer, CRT, and memory. I think that was what won many of their licenses.

    As for Screen Editor functions. Iam up for whatever is supported and can easily be selected and set by TAB,Arrows and enter key. So it would have a more industrial approach of not using a mouse to point and click.
    Hmmm. The Tab order is not currently easily set in the Screen editor. The Tab order of the Edit Input Controls is fixed. So you must choose them in order and place them on your screen carefully. I see on your Bolt Circle example they sort of jump around.

    Right clicking on an operation to edit and having it open and auto fill sounds nice. So after edit is done would the operation in file be updated or would user have to delete the original from file?
    I think we could make it update the selected operation. Although some way of doing an "Update Current" or "Insert New" would probably be needed. I can't think of an simple way other than having two buttons.

    For me, i dont see an issue with the Screens all looking the same. All conversational controls i have ran are like this. Keeps it simple.
    Like the idea of having this integrated into KMCNC more than a seperate app. Or at least if it would appear that it is integrated. Less confusing for an operator/user if there is not another software to use on the machine control. Centroid does this for some of there operations. Its kinda clumsy and hangs up sometimes.
    I'm not sure I follow your point. I was saying that it might be very difficult to make all the screens look the same. Let's say we end up with 50 KCode screens that all have a certain size and style. Then the User wants to change his main operator screen to a different size and style. The KCode Screens will then all look different. The only solution I see to this is to have the screens inherit styles and dynamically resize (like C# WPF or web pages), which is way beyond the scope of the KMotionCNC Screen Editor.

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  9. #21
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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hi Tom,

    Hmmm. The Tab order is not currently easily set in the Screen editor. The Tab order of the Edit Input Controls is fixed. So you must choose them in order and place them on your screen carefully. I see on your Bolt Circle example they sort of jump around.
    What about selecting an operation with arrow keys? Or maybe with inputting a number to select an operation?

    I'm not sure I follow your point. I was saying that it might be very difficult to make all the screens look the same. Let's say we end up with 50 KCode screens that all have a certain size and style. Then the User wants to change his main operator screen to a different size and style. The KCode Screens will then all look different. The only solution I see to this is to have the screens inherit styles and dynamically resize (like C# WPF or web pages), which is way beyond the scope of the KMotionCNC Screen Editor.
    So there would have to be a set Main KMCNC dialog face for the KCode screens to work correctly? If so, i dont think that will be to bad. Would just have to come up with a Main face that is universal but not busy and cluttered. Would the custom 3 page screens work?

    Thanks,
    Troy

    http://www.homecncstuff.elementfx.com/


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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Is there anybody wanting to test the barebones of my conversational program?
    I've spent a bit time re-working it to create a (hopefully!) reasonable framework to expand from, and am looking for anybody willing to comment on what I've done so far, and to give input on future additions.

    At the moment it only does canned cycles, but I'm currently working on reading the KMotionCNC tool file, so I can get started on adding more milling features (they all involve knowing the tool diameter, so I figure reading it from the tool file will be simpler than having to input it manually).

    Anybody interested, drop me a PM with your email, and I'll send you a link.



  11. #23
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hi m_c,

    Please send me a link.

    I will try to get started on adding the automation interface functions to KMotionCNC. I'm thinking we would need to add the following functions:

    - Save Currently Open GCode File
    - Get Open GCode File Name
    - Get Cursor Selection Range
    - Set Cursor Selection Range
    - Load GCode File
    - Run Simulation

    Does that sound right?

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  12. #24
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    Default Re: Fill in the Blanks Gcode Dynomotion

    Hay Tom,
    Is there anything i can do to help? Dont know if you still want me to make more screen sets for examples or?
    Thanks again,
    Troy

    http://www.homecncstuff.elementfx.com/


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