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  1. #301
    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    Hi Peter, Hows everything else going with the machine? Have you cut any test parts yet?
    Hello Mark,

    Yes, I did a 3D cutter path of a knife handle in a 2X4 piece of wood and I was very happy with the results. I forge knives and need scales (handles) for them. I like to model them and cut them via CNC.

    Here is a video (zip file 168mb) of the machine cutting.

    The cutter path in the video is running at 40 IPM and I saw excellent matching from one direction to another direction in this tool path.

    I have not cut any steel yet to check circle/parallel patterns or dimensional for size. Still working on getting cooling pump working.


    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    Does your machine have home switches? Probably not a bad idea to set them up, would make for a better setup. I'm sort of using your method of soft limits and it is working but you need to be careful not to forget about anything. My fadal wasnt fitted with home or limit switches, it has marks on each axis for home position and originally it used these marks and the encoder index only for homing. I simply line these marks up before powering off the machine. When i start it up I verify each mark and when i power up I know everything is zero. Later I setup a user button to move back to 0,0,0 before shutting down and its normally right on position when i power up again the next day.

    Still plan on adding home switches some day, but this is working well enough for now that i keep putting it off.
    This is exactly how I will be using my machine for now; however, I do have limit switches on all axis form the original Journeyman Tree 325 design that are still working as designed apart form the KFLOP/KMotion retrofit. I was encouraged by Tom long ago to keep these in place ... and I did and they work great so I do not need to be too concerned about over-traveling and destroying something. At this point I have to manually move the axis off the limit once it is hit and re-set the amp/kmotion.

    So I will be using these soft-limits like you ... by putting the machine at these reference marks and re-setting the raw machine position to zero. Then before shutting the machine off I would return the axis to this reference position.

    .....
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  2. #302
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    #2 the Coordinate System is probably already defined by your Init Program
    Yes ... it is I just left this in since I am thinking it will should not hurt anything being here as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    That code assumes you will zero when the machine is at the center, back, up position. Is that what you plan to do?
    Yes ... this is correct. This position is the original Journeymen Tree 325 reference position ... has arrows to line up on X & Y axis and I bring the Z-axis quill up to about .250" from the machines head-stock face.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    That soft limit code is somewhat old. It disables the axes when the software limits are entered. It then tries to automatically enable every 2 seconds to allow you to move back out of the limits. Is that the way you want it to work? Since you have encoders the EnableAxisDest should be changed to enable to the current position chx->Position rather than the last commanded destination.

    If you get something that works the way you like it can be added to your Init program.
    Question ..... Is there a newer simple soft-limit C-code I could be using for my encoders in the "C:\KMotion434j\C Programs" directory?


    Question ... How/what can I use for NC code to move the all the axis back to raw machine zero, which in most cases will be difference that the working NC zero?

    Thanks,

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  3. #303
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Question ..... Is there a newer simple soft-limit C-code I could be using for my encoders in the "C:\KMotion434j\C Programs" directory?
    See the AdjustSoftLimits.c and AdjustSoftLimitsTest.c example that start stopping depending on speed to not overshoot specified limits.

    Question ... How/what can I use for NC code to move the all the axis back to raw machine zero, which in most cases will be difference that the working NC zero?
    You can use G53 to move in machine coordinates. Such as:

    G53 Z0
    G53 X0Y0

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  4. #304
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    ....
    ....

    Still working on this retrofit.....................

    I had to remove the X-axis table and Y-axis saddle to clean out all the way lubrication lines, veins, and holes. Since I had it apart I reflaked the gibs and Y-axis saddle dovetail side since the original scraping/flaking on the gibs was showing a little galling since the original flaking was gone on the ends.
    Once I got it back together I adjusted the gibs as best as I knew how and re-tuned the servos in KFLOP. I ended up with about .001"on the Y-axis of movement and .002" on the X-axis of movement when I try to manually jeck the axis table against/away from the way-gibs. What seems like a coincidence, I now have .002" backlash on the X-axis and .001 backlash on Y-axis. I used dial indicator and measure backlash with my MPG pendent for the movement on each axis.


    My question is:

    Can I use the “backlash Settings” in KFLOP to correct for this backlash on the X-Axis and Y-Axis?:


    Backlash Settings
    Configures the Backlash Compensation for the axis To compensate for backlash in an axis, an offset in the commanded position may be applied when moving in the positive direction, and not applied when moving in the negative direction The amount and rate at which the offset is applied is specified here See also BacklashMode, BacklashAmount and BacklashRate Console commands.


    ...
    ....

    ...

    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 04-05-2019 at 08:12 PM.


  5. #305
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Software backlash compensation should always be a last resort. It has limitations. I think of it like positioning a sled by pulling on a chain. If the motion is smooth, there is enough drag, and there are minimal external forces, then it might work well. Otherwise not.

    What is X-jeck?

    Did you have that much backlash before?

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    ...
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    Software backlash compensation should always be a last resort. It has limitations. I think of it like positioning a sled by pulling on a chain. If the motion is smooth, there is enough drag, and there are minimal external forces, then it might work well. Otherwise not.

    What is X-jeck?

    Did you have that much backlash before?
    Hello Tom,

    Here is what I tuned the servos too:


    X-Axis - Cutting:
    Jerk=2e+08

    X-Axis - Rapid:
    Jerk=1500000

    Y-Axis - Cutting:
    Jerk=4e+08

    Y-Axis - Rapid:
    Jerk=2000000

    Before I had the way gibs out I was getting:

    X-Axis .... .0005" Backlash

    Y-Axis ...... .001" Backlash


    ...
    ...
    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
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    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister
    Kmotion Configuration Screens "RUN-AWAY"
    Tree Journeyman 325 Designed Specs.
    Tree Journeyman 325 Axis-Tension Frequency Settings
    Final Axis Tuned Error Parameters
    VFD Wiring to Existing Tree325 Old Controller
    DAC Values to RPM / Voltage Checks

    .....



  7. #307
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Having the gibs set tighter can certainly increase backlash just from the increase drag and things flexing. Stick-slip can throw off readings a little with the MPG. Fadal recommends making a program with movements and dwells to check backlash, supposed to be far more accurate, but im not so sure its as much better as they say it is. Here are the details if you want to try it: https://www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/B..._Procedure.pdf

    I replaced thrust bearings on my mill, and reballed 2 ballscrews with larger balls (not that hard to do). This got me better then 0.001" and I used backlash compensation to get rid of what was left and I found it to work very well for me. I wouldn't be terribly concerned with using compensation to get rid of 0.002" for most types of work. Much more then that and you might want to try and tighten up the machine.

    Another thing that can explain your inconsistent readings is where you are in the travel when you measure. Ball screws wear most in the center, normally you will see it tighter on each end. And also which end of the travel will make a difference. Everything is a spring and flexes so if your ball nut is right next to thrust bearings it will be more rigid then if its at the farthest away end. High end machines use thrust bearings on each end to reduce this problem, and also cancel thermal growth of the ballscrew. Good luck with it.



  8. #308
    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    If the backlash varies consistently over the range of travel you might write a User Program to vary it based on current machine position.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    ...
    ...

    On another note ...... is there a way to report back to the KMotion console window what the following error is when it faults out and reports a following error on a axis?

    It would seem I have quick abit of stickage when I first start up my machine and try to move the Y-axis since my removing the saddle/putting it back together/re-adjusting the gibs.
    Once I get it moving for a while ... it seem to be ok with a following error set to 40-50 counts.

    But I would like to know what the magnitude of the following error is on start-up.

    Right now I have my following error set to 40 counts. I know this is low ... 40/20,000=0.002"; however, it seem to be fine before I took it apart and I have yet to do any real hard cutting/drilling.


    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    Having the gibs set tighter can certainly increase backlash just from the increase drag and things flexing. Stick-slip can throw off readings a little with the MPG. Fadal recommends making a program with movements and dwells to check backlash, supposed to be far more accurate, but im not so sure its as much better as they say it is. Here are the details if you want to try it: https://www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/B..._Procedure.pdf

    ....
    Thanks Mark, I will review this info. I appreciate the insight you offer. The way gib certainly do get tighter as I approach the X-axis end limits. The ball screws looked good, at least by visual inspection; however, I was not sure how to check them for wear when I had them off the machine. Honestly, I just wasn't ready to get them regrind if they needed it. I have read some articles about re-balling the ball-screw, but not sure if I would like to tackle this yet.

    ...
    ....



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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterTheWolf View Post

    It would seem I have quick abit of stickage when I first start up my machine and try to move the Y-axis since my removing the saddle/putting it back together/re-adjusting the gibs.
    Once I get it moving for a while ... it seem to be ok with a following error set to 40-50 counts..
    My machine does the exact same thing! Y axis makes a big thump on the very first move, can actually feel it in the floor sometimes. As soon as it breaks free from where it was sitting its fine.

    Great idea Tom about having a program adjust backlash on the fly. The origional fadal controller takes 3 backlash readings for each axis, each end and center. I thought this was kinda neat but didnt think I would actually be able to do the same with kflop. So how would you do this? Have the forever loop in your init file check position and adjust it? I may look into this in the future if my Y axis screw shows any more wear. Its considerably looser in the middle now, noticably less preload then at the ends.



  11. #311
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    ...
    ....

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    If the backlash varies consistently over the range of travel you might write a User Program to vary it based on current machine position.
    This sounds like the thing to do; however, my "C" programing skills are still not where they should be with this DynoMotion solution.

    Is it possible you would be able to get me start with some base "C" code in the direction I could test?


    ...
    ....



  12. #312
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    If the backlash varies consistently over the range of travel you might write a User Program to vary it based on current machine position.
    This sounds like the thing to do; however, my "C" programing skills are still not where they should be with this DynoMotion solution.

    Is it possible you would be able to get me start with some base "C" code in the direction I could test?
    How does your backlash vary over the range of travel? Have you measured it? Is it consistent over time? If so, please post a table of measurements.



    Hi Murray70,

    Great idea Tom about having a program adjust backlash on the fly. The origional fadal controller takes 3 backlash readings for each axis, each end and center. I thought this was kinda neat but didnt think I would actually be able to do the same with kflop. So how would you do this? Have the forever loop in your init file check position and adjust it?
    Yes that is what I was thinking. But now that I think of it there might be a subtle issue. Take an extreme example: assume there is 0.010 inches backlash in the middle and zero backlash at the ends. Then depending on how the backlash is applied in the middle there could be a shift at the position in the middle. So a move from the end to the middle could be short or long by 0.01 inches. where the backlash is constant this isn't an issue. Do you think this is a problem? Do you know how Fadal handled this? I believe KFLOP's DestOffset could be used to correct this. But it is getting to be very complicated.

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    Hi Murray70,

    Yes that is what I was thinking. But now that I think of it there might be a subtle issue. Take an extreme example: assume there is 0.010 inches backlash in the middle and zero backlash at the ends. Then depending on how the backlash is applied in the middle there could be a shift at the position in the middle. So a move from the end to the middle could be short or long by 0.01 inches. where the backlash is constant this isn't an issue. Do you think this is a problem? Do you know how Fadal handled this? I believe KFLOP's DestOffset could be used to correct this. But it is getting to be very complicated.
    Hi Tom,

    I guess it gets complicated to get things absolutely perfect, but maybe we don't need to worry too much about a slight shift. Anybody who really needs accuracy will obviously fix large mechanical issues anyway. But this might be useful for someone not doing critical work who just needs to get rid of an extra thou or 2 backlash in the middle. A small shift from this probably wont be a major problem and it should interpolate better holes with less problems at quadrants etc.

    Im not really sure how Fadal did it. If your really worried about error I suppose you could look at adding and subtracting counts to keep the error centered instead of just adding counts in a single direction as it is now. That sounds like a lot of work though as it changes the way everything works. And whos the say the wear in the screw is centered anyway? Could be mostly on one side. So maybe dont worry too much about perfection on this issue. Backlash compensation is never the perfect solution anyway. But used in small amounts it is handy, and i think small changes along the length would be handy too. We just cant expect it to work miracles on completely worn out machines.

    If you do go ahead with this, would be sort of nice if the amount was varied proportionally along the way. For exampe, lets say we have 0.002" in middle and no error at the ends. Would be nice if it calculated 0.001" to use at the 25% point.

    Mark



  14. #314
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi Mark,

    You might try this:
    Code:
    #include "KMotionDef.h"
    
    // Vary the backlash linearly between 3 points (NegEnd, Middle, PosEnd)
    
    #define XAXIS 0
    #define XRes 10000.0            // counts/inch
    
    #define XNegEndDest ( 0.0 * XRes)    // counts
    #define XPosEndDest (20.0 * XRes)    // counts
    
    #define XNegEndBacklash (0.001 * XRes)    // backlash counts at negative end of travel
    #define XMiddleBacklash (0.005 * XRes)    // backlash counts middle
    #define XPosEndBacklash (0.002 * XRes)    // backlash counts counts at positive end of travel
    
    #define XMiddleDest ((XNegEndDest + XPosEndDest)*0.5)    // counts
    #define XNegSlope ((XMiddleBacklash - XNegEndBacklash) / (XMiddleDest - XNegEndDest))
    #define XPosSlope ((XPosEndBacklash - XMiddleBacklash) / (XPosEndDest - XMiddleDest))
    
    void ServiceBacklashX();
    double Interpolate(double x0, double x, double y0, double Slope);
    
    void main()
    {
        for (;;)
        {
            ServiceBacklashX();
        }
    }
    
    void ServiceBacklashX(void)
    {
        if (chan[XAXIS].Dest < XMiddleDest)  // check which section we are in
            chan[XAXIS].BacklashAmount =
                Interpolate(XNegEndDest, chan[XAXIS].Dest, XNegEndBacklash, XNegSlope);
        else
            chan[XAXIS].BacklashAmount =
                Interpolate(XMiddleDest, chan[XAXIS].Dest, XMiddleBacklash, XPosSlope);
    }
    
    // linear interpolation along line defined by point and slope
    double Interpolate(double x0, double x, double y0, double Slope)
    {
        double y = (x - x0) * Slope + y0;
    
        if (y < 0.0)                // limit to positive
            y = 0.0;
    
        return y;
    }


    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    ....

    KFLOP Version:

    I went to use my machine today and had nothing but errors.
    These errors started popping up after running the machine to a quick warm up NC program for a few minutes.
    I am getting “Read Failed – Auto Disconnedt” & “Kmotion not Found on USB Location 00000021" … Unable to open device”.
    I can see the “Read Failed – Auto Disconnect” is from following errors; however, not sure about the other error.
    But on 4/6/2019 things were working fine. I had the following errors set to 60, 60, 40 for X,Y, & Z.
    At the time the garage temp. was about 70° F. and the machine steel was measuring about 65° F.
    Today I was working at a temp. of 95° F. and the machine steel was measuring about 90°F.
    Is this temperature deviation of 30° F. enough to require a different set of parameters on the tuning of the servos?
    Also, Is this temperature deviation of 30° F. enough to require a readjustment of the Way Gibbs?
    There certainly is a large amount of mass here. I never did do anything with the Z-Axis back in June , so Z-axis would not of had any changes except for the outside temperature.
    In any case, even increasing the following errors up to 1000 did not seem to make a difference on the following errors.
    Am I going to have to run AC in the garage to eliminate such issues?
    Could really use some advice here to get this running again.

    Error Message:
    Tree325 Retrofit Started-003_version_kflop-jpg

    Version of KFLOP:
    Tree325 Retrofit Started-001_14july2019-jpg

    ....
    ...
    ...
    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister
    Kmotion Configuration Screens "RUN-AWAY"
    Tree Journeyman 325 Designed Specs.
    Tree Journeyman 325 Axis-Tension Frequency Settings
    Final Axis Tuned Error Parameters
    VFD Wiring to Existing Tree325 Old Controller
    DAC Values to RPM / Voltage Checks

    .....



  16. #316
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi Peter,

    I don't see why you think following errors are the problem. A following error shouldn't cause the USB to disconnect.

    What exactly are you doing? Are you able to initialize and do basic moves? When does the error occur? What do you need to do to restore operation?

    Maybe your 5V supply to KFLOP is overheating and shutting down?

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Peter,

    I don't see why you think following errors are the problem. A following error shouldn't cause the USB to disconnect.

    What exactly are you doing? Are you able to initialize and do basic moves? When does the error occur? What do you need to do to restore operation?

    Maybe your 5V supply to KFLOP is overheating and shutting down?
    ...

    Actually, once I got the error USB to disconnected ... I could not get Kmotion / KLOP to re-initialize, even after completely exiting KLOP/Kmotion and restarting it on the laptop.
    I had to shut down the machine and bring it back up and then restart KLOP/Kmotion to get it to re-initialize. I did this a few time.

    Then I would try to re-pick up my part to re-set zeros with my MPG .... which would then produce the error once more before I could get the Y-axis pick-up... after I got the X-axis set.

    ....

    ....



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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Actually, once I got the error USB to disconnected ... I could not get Kmotion / KLOP to re-initialize, even after completely exiting KLOP/Kmotion and restarting it on the laptop.
    Did it show Connected? Did KFLOP have power? What error did you receive when pushing Initialize ?

    I had to shut down the machine and bring it back up and then restart KLOP/Kmotion to get it to re-initialize
    ok

    I did this a few time.
    Did what a few times? Power cycle? Was it necessary?

    Then I would try to re-pick up my part to re-set zeros with my MPG .... which would then produce the error once more before I could get the Y-axis pick-up... after I got the X-axis set.
    What error? Does it seem to be time related? Such as it works for a minute or so and then disconnects?

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    ...
    ....

    It would seem I have two issues going on.

    The first one is "Read Failed – Auto Disconnedt” & “Kmotion not Found on USB Location 00000021 … Unable to open device”.

    I will try to reproduce the Error "Read Failed – Auto Disconnedt” & “Kmotion not Found on USB Location 00000021 … Unable to open device”.

    If I can reproduce this error.... then I will document each step I did, before and after getting this "Read Failed – Auto Disconnedt” & “Kmotion not Found on USB Location 00000021 … Unable to open device” error and report back.

    ...
    ...

    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 07-14-2019 at 06:33 PM. Reason: spelling


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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Probably not much help to you, but FWIW ive had random disconnect errors maybe 4-5 times in the past couple years. Seems to be computer related in my case, rebooting always fixed it. I changed the usb cable at one point, may have helped a little. Id be tempted to try a different computer too if all else fails.

    I kinda doubt the temperature is causing your trouble with following error. Make sure you allow for wear when adjusting gibs. Could be fine in the center and too tight at ends.



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Tree325 Retrofit Started

Tree325 Retrofit Started