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Thread: Tree325 Retrofit Started

  1. #73
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    After disconnecting all the axis (controller end) and their encoder shielded wires from each other I was able to prove that the X-axis and the Y-axis encoder shielded wires have a resistance >100 ohms.
    I assume you meant to say 100KOhms. But what's 3 orders of magnitude among friends

    However, the Z-axis encoder shielded wire still has a resistance of 0.5 ohms. It would seem that it is grounded on the servo motor/encoder connections side.
    Question: would this make sense since it is next to the 5hp spindle motor?
    I wouldn't think so. Probably the opposite. That might put earth ground noise from the Spindle into the shield and in turn into the signals.

    However, on the Kanalog end for the Z-axis shielded encoder wire I left it disconnect from JP6 (GND) since it is grounded on the servo motor/encoder connection side.
    Probably a good idea in my opinion.

    For now, I will not be taking that task on. If this proves to be an issue after I get most of the machine working, I will address that issue then.
    I think that's reasonable

    I also wired up the DAC (Velocity Command Input to the amplifiers) with shielded wires. I connected the shielded wire of each axis (all tied together as one) to the Kanalog (JP11 GND) side. X-axis Positive (Red lead) to JP11 “0”, Y-axis Positive (Red lead) to JP11 “1”, and Z-axis Positive (Red lead at Drive, White at Kanalog end) to JP11 “2”. The COM (negative) leads are connected to JP11 GND.
    I think it might have been better to ground the DAC shields at the Amplifier end as that is the receiver. But hopefully Kanalog GND is nearly as quiet.

    Tom, can you please advise as to what my next step will be?
    The next step would be to test if the DACs can command any speed, the encoders count correctly, and then if the servo is enabled it servos and holds position. See:
    Kanalog Hardware Info - Dynomotion

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  2. #74
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    I assume you meant to say 100KOhms. But what's 3 orders of magnitude among friends
    Correct ... I changed this to 100K ohms ....


    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    I think it might have been better to ground the DAC shields at the Amplifier end as that is the receiver. But hopefully Kanalog GND is nearly as quiet.
    I will look into this and change the ground DAC shielded wire on all three axis to the receiver (amplifier) end.

    As always, Thanks for paying attention to the details and correcting me.

    .....
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    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
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    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected

    .....
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  3. #75
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    I'm probably a bit late to the game, and it's not totally the same thing as a retrofit, but I created a website to document how I got an old Supermax up and running in my garage...and avoided using a phase converter altogether.

    Anyway, for what its worth: http://www.thisoldmill.com



  4. #76
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    I can't help you with your controller/interface issues as I used Centroid DC3IO on my Tree 325 and 425 retrofits, but I'll make a couple of comments on the machines. I looked at the miles of wiring and 20-30 year old components and went straight to the Centroid on the 325 and was able to sell off the Dynapath/drives/vfd stuff to someone who wanted them as spares. My 425 was a new machine that lacked the appropriate servo motors and was undergoing someone's home-brew control design so I bought three new servo motors to go with the Centroid drive/control.

    I didn't see if you've found it already but you should find a box lurking on the underside of one of the cabinets (the back one I think) with a very large transformer in it.

    Do you know if your machine has the 3.5K or 6K RPM pulleys on it? My 325 had the high speed and the Yaskawa spindle motor had an encoder for closing the loop. Running without using that encoder with the 6K pulleys will give you very low torque at low RPMs, as in being able to hold the spindle from moving with your bare hand. My 425 came with the low speed pulleys and no encoder on the MEZ spindle motor, so part of the swap to the 6K pulleys included adding an encoder off the motor and adding an optional daughter board to work with the encoder to the Yaskawa VFD.

    Give the metering valves on the way lube lines a thorough cleaning (or replace them with new ones) and then before you do much axis movement make sure the lube pump is pushing oil all the way through the lines. Sometimes the lines/valves can be clogged with clumpy old oil and you don't want to burn up the ways or the ball screws/nuts.

    You may be better off replacing old wires with fresh ones so you can be sure that there are no hidden "partial connection" problems in the old wiring to have to deal with later. The Centroid and a CT-E VFD eliminated a LOT of wires (and an entire cabinet) on the J325.

    The small monochrome screen on the Dynapath had a lot of burn in and was also dim, the 17" LCD color monitor I use with the Centroid is a huge improvement

    I put fresh standard-size balls in the 325 screws. There was enough wear that the fresh balls helped, though they didn't eliminate all the slop due to wear in the screws/nuts. It can get fiddly but it isn't rocket science to do. This also gives you a chance to thoroughly clean the screws/nuts and the areas around them. Be careful not to foul the sliding cover plates on top of the knee or snag an oil line whilst messing with the screws.

    My 325 had inch ball screws and US electrical components where my later 425 (built by TOS) is all metric. Double check yours to see which way it was built.

    I upgraded the 500 line encoders/resolvers/tachs on the stock Baldor servo motors on the J325 with 2000L encoders and that wasn't too difficult a process. I don't know if you need to do that with your control.

    If you pull the spindle motor make sure you've got plenty of overhead space to lift it up and out of the column and make sure you have a friend to help as it is heavy and an awkward process.

    Fresh axis and spindle belts will probably be needed on an old machine.

    If you make an adapter for the knee crank you can drive it for gross movements with a stout 1/2" drill. My older 1/2" battery drill isn't up to it and I have to use my pneumatic drill.

    A good condition Tree is a nice machine. More controlled Z travel, a tool changer and an enclosure to make using flood less messy sure would be nice, but a 325 is a much better machine than a converted manual Bridgeport.

    cheers,
    Michael



  5. #77
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael M View Post

    Give the metering valves on the way lube lines a thorough cleaning (or replace them with new ones) and then before you do much axis movement make sure the lube pump is pushing oil all the way through the lines. Sometimes the lines/valves can be clogged with clumpy old oil and you don't want to burn up the ways or the ball screws/nuts.

    cheers,
    Michael

    Thanks Michael for the insight into this machine. I have a long ways to go before this thing will be up an running to cut chips.

    I now have the KFLOP/Kanalog connected and powered up ... getting ready to test; however, I though I would take your advice and clean the SHOWA Lube system and replace the meter valves before I start moving the axis too much. It is good thing I did. The tank was full of sludge as well as the steel filter. So I can imagine the meter valves a clogged as well. So I will be purchasing new meter valves and getting them install and get some fresh Mobil Vactra No. 2 pump into the ways.

    I have not traced the Z-axis ways/ball screw lube line yet .... I can just imagine it will be hard to get at. I will most likely try to replace that nylon line right away just to ensure I am good.

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected

    .....
    .....



  6. #78
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    For checking metering valves, one trick I read somewhere and used, was to fill the system with ATF (automatic transmission/power steering fluid, which is red), and let it run for a while. Then see if you're getting red fluid on all the ways/ballscrews. Once you're happy everything is working, drain the reservoir and fill it with way lube.

    However, if the machine has been sat for a while, I'd disconnect all the lines and flush them first. If the valves are blocked, just replace them. On the last machine I stripped, I think out of 8 blocked metering valves, I only managed to revive two using various cleaners (if you want to try, carb cleaner is the best option I found).



  7. #79
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by m_c View Post
    For checking metering valves, one trick I read somewhere and used, was to fill the system with ATF (automatic transmission/power steering fluid, which is red), and let it run for a while. Then see if you're getting red fluid on all the ways/ballscrews. Once you're happy everything is working, drain the reservoir and fill it with way lube.
    ......

    Thanks M_C .... I think I will give this a try this weekend. I just order new meter valves/nylon line tonight assuming the existing meter valves are clogged as this machine was sitting for at least two years before I purchased it. The Z-axis is the main line I have concerns about as I have not traced this line yet. I am hoping the meter values on the Z-axis Ball-screws and ways are the same as the X/Y axis since that is what I ordered for the Z-axis (without looking first).

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected

    .....
    .....



  8. #80
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    The next step would be to test if the DACs can command any speed, the encoders count correctly, and then if the servo is enabled it servos and holds position. See:
    Kanalog Hardware Info - Dynomotion

    Regards
    OK ... I will bite .... I have the KFLOP/KANALOG connected and tried to apply the the first step in testing; however, I am lost.....

    The basic first steps are to verify the hardware:

    1.) check the encoder counts correctly.

    This is as clear as mud to me ....

    I loaded the "KanalogInitialPID.mot" on channels 0,1, & 2 and here are the results:

    I am not sure what I need to check here. These are my results at the moment
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    In this video are the Kmotion dialog boxes/parameter per the "KanalogInitialPID.mot" channels loaded.

    I see the encoder count is at 250 in these dialog parameter boxes ... I am thinking this is not correct since this servo encoder is a 500 line.

    Can I get some advice on what I am missing here. I have read the documentation and still am lost as what I doing.

    Other Parameters:

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-analog_io_kanalog-png

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-kanalog_digital_io-png

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected

    .....
    .....



  9. #81
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    1.) check the encoder counts correctly.

    This is as clear as mud to me ....
    heh heh. Move the motor/encoder by hand. Does the Position on the KMotion.exe Axis Screen change appropriately? Check how much it changes for 1 rev. If rotating it back to the same place does the position return to nearly the same value?

    I see the encoder count is at 250 in these dialog parameter boxes ... I am thinking this is not correct since this servo encoder is a 500 line.
    That value isn't relevant. We don't need to set the resolution anywhere yet but you might read this related article:
    Dynomotion

    I loaded the "KanalogInitialPID.mot" on channels 0,1, & 2 and here are the results
    I'd prefer you only work on one axis at this point. After you get it working it should be easy to do the others. If you load the same configuration into multiple axes make sure you change the input/output channels to use different devices. We don't want multiple axes to be driving the same DAC and motor or using the same encoder input. That's like having two different drivers trying to use the same car. You might read this:
    Channels Channels Channels - Dynomotion

    HTH
    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  10. #82
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    heh heh. Move the motor/encoder by hand. Does the Position on the KMotion.exe Axis Screen change appropriately? Check how much it changes for 1 rev. If rotating it back to the same place does the position return to nearly the same value?
    Tom, I was able to finally get this "Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement" on all the axis today. I know you preferred to do one axis; however, I just had to see if all of them are working.
    Moving forward with the following tests I will stick to one axis until we pin it down correctly. The X-Axis is the we can take to completion.

    My results are, what I think is good, only on the X-axis and the Z-axis since the start position, one revolution at the motor (produced a .100" movement on the axis), and then returned to the start position produced encoder returning to almost the same axis position.

    However, the Y-axis did not respond like the other two axis. It seem to keep adding to the encoder position value as I tested.

    My test on each axis was made by first setting up a Dial Indicator (.001" resolution) on the moving table/spindle accordingly.
    Then moving the motor axis one-revolution (360°), which produced a .100" movement on the moving component, which was only 180° (half-turn for each full turn of the motor axis) on the drive-axis of the component.
    I recorded the Kmotion Axis Encoder Position before movement, after the one-revolution movement, and back to the start position movement. The Dial Indicator was used as my meter for movement each way.
    I did this about five times for each axis ... then ended back on the start-position.

    Here is a -->> LINK <<-- to my recorded results (Link also in the J325 Quick Links: below)

    Is this what we expect to see?

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement


    .....
    .....



  11. #83
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    X and Z looks as expected. The encoder is probably 2048 counts per rev and your lead screw is probably 0.2 inches with a 1:2 reduction.

    So Resolution would be 20480 counts/inch

    This would be easier to verify by making a big move like 20 revs.

    It seems you have about 50 counts of backlash in the system or about 2.5mils. Probably a bit more than normal.

    A bad channel, broken wire, or miss wire might cause the Y axis to count one direction. You might measure the voltages at each of the 4 inputs at Kanalog relative to Kanalog GND. The 4 pins A+ A- B+ B- should have the below listed characteristics or something is wrong. It probably too difficult to manually move the encoder 1 count at a time. So instead move it random amounts. Eventually you should be able to observe all 4 possible states (A+ high or low and B+ high or low).

    #1 each pin should always be high (>2.4V) or low (< 0.4V) so never something like 1.5V
    #2 whenever the + pin is high the - pin should be low, and vice versa
    #3 The A and B signals should be independent (not shorted together and always in the same state)

    HTH
    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  12. #84
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    A bad channel, broken wire, or miss wire might cause the Y axis to count one direction. You might measure the voltages at each of the 4 inputs at Kanalog relative to Kanalog GND. The 4 pins A+ A- B+ B- should have the below listed characteristics or something is wrong. It probably too difficult to manually move the encoder 1 count at a time. So instead move it random amounts. Eventually you should be able to observe all 4 possible states (A+ high or low and B+ high or low).

    #1 each pin should always be high (>2.4V) or low (< 0.4V) so never something like 1.5V
    Hello Tom,

    It would seem I have what should never be on the Y-axis:

    Wire #420 (A1+) to GND is 1.606 VDC
    Wire #421 (A1-) to GND is 93.1 mVDC
    Wire #422 (B1+) to GND is 1.626 VDC
    Wire #423 (B1-) to GND is 92.2 mVDC
    at the Kanalog JP1

    What does this mean?

    ...
    ....



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Tree325 Retrofit Started

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