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Thread: Tree325 Retrofit Started

  1. #81
    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    1.) check the encoder counts correctly.

    This is as clear as mud to me ....
    heh heh. Move the motor/encoder by hand. Does the Position on the KMotion.exe Axis Screen change appropriately? Check how much it changes for 1 rev. If rotating it back to the same place does the position return to nearly the same value?

    I see the encoder count is at 250 in these dialog parameter boxes ... I am thinking this is not correct since this servo encoder is a 500 line.
    That value isn't relevant. We don't need to set the resolution anywhere yet but you might read this related article:
    Dynomotion

    I loaded the "KanalogInitialPID.mot" on channels 0,1, & 2 and here are the results
    I'd prefer you only work on one axis at this point. After you get it working it should be easy to do the others. If you load the same configuration into multiple axes make sure you change the input/output channels to use different devices. We don't want multiple axes to be driving the same DAC and motor or using the same encoder input. That's like having two different drivers trying to use the same car. You might read this:
    Channels Channels Channels - Dynomotion

    HTH
    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  2. #82
    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    heh heh. Move the motor/encoder by hand. Does the Position on the KMotion.exe Axis Screen change appropriately? Check how much it changes for 1 rev. If rotating it back to the same place does the position return to nearly the same value?
    Tom, I was able to finally get this "Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement" on all the axis today. I know you preferred to do one axis; however, I just had to see if all of them are working.
    Moving forward with the following tests I will stick to one axis until we pin it down correctly. The X-Axis is the we can take to completion.

    My results are, what I think is good, only on the X-axis and the Z-axis since the start position, one revolution at the motor (produced a .100" movement on the axis), and then returned to the start position produced encoder returning to almost the same axis position.

    However, the Y-axis did not respond like the other two axis. It seem to keep adding to the encoder position value as I tested.

    My test on each axis was made by first setting up a Dial Indicator (.001" resolution) on the moving table/spindle accordingly.
    Then moving the motor axis one-revolution (360°), which produced a .100" movement on the moving component, which was only 180° (half-turn for each full turn of the motor axis) on the drive-axis of the component.
    I recorded the Kmotion Axis Encoder Position before movement, after the one-revolution movement, and back to the start position movement. The Dial Indicator was used as my meter for movement each way.
    I did this about five times for each axis ... then ended back on the start-position.

    Here is a -->> LINK <<-- to my recorded results (Link also in the J325 Quick Links: below)

    Is this what we expect to see?

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  3. #83
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    X and Z looks as expected. The encoder is probably 2048 counts per rev and your lead screw is probably 0.2 inches with a 1:2 reduction.

    So Resolution would be 20480 counts/inch

    This would be easier to verify by making a big move like 20 revs.

    It seems you have about 50 counts of backlash in the system or about 2.5mils. Probably a bit more than normal.

    A bad channel, broken wire, or miss wire might cause the Y axis to count one direction. You might measure the voltages at each of the 4 inputs at Kanalog relative to Kanalog GND. The 4 pins A+ A- B+ B- should have the below listed characteristics or something is wrong. It probably too difficult to manually move the encoder 1 count at a time. So instead move it random amounts. Eventually you should be able to observe all 4 possible states (A+ high or low and B+ high or low).

    #1 each pin should always be high (>2.4V) or low (< 0.4V) so never something like 1.5V
    #2 whenever the + pin is high the - pin should be low, and vice versa
    #3 The A and B signals should be independent (not shorted together and always in the same state)

    HTH
    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  4. #84
    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    A bad channel, broken wire, or miss wire might cause the Y axis to count one direction. You might measure the voltages at each of the 4 inputs at Kanalog relative to Kanalog GND. The 4 pins A+ A- B+ B- should have the below listed characteristics or something is wrong. It probably too difficult to manually move the encoder 1 count at a time. So instead move it random amounts. Eventually you should be able to observe all 4 possible states (A+ high or low and B+ high or low).

    #1 each pin should always be high (>2.4V) or low (< 0.4V) so never something like 1.5V
    Hello Tom,

    It would seem I have what should never be on the Y-axis:

    Wire #420 (A1+) to GND is 1.606 VDC
    Wire #421 (A1-) to GND is 93.1 mVDC
    Wire #422 (B1+) to GND is 1.626 VDC
    Wire #423 (B1-) to GND is 92.2 mVDC
    at the Kanalog JP1

    What does this mean?

    ...
    ....



  5. #85
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Hopefully that 90+ VDC is a measurement error. That is about enough DC to kill you. Could you mean millivolts?

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  6. #86
    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Hopefully that 90+ VDC is a measurement error. That is about enough DC to kill you. Could you mean millivolts?

    Regards
    yes... sorry mVDC
    ...
    ..



  7. #87
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    whew. (well what's 3 orders of magnitude among friends)

    The 0.09V would be a valid low. But the 1.6V is not a valid high.

    If you move the encoder to random positions do the pins with 1.6V sometimes go low? That would be a clue as to whether or not the encoder is really connected but just not powered properly.

    Otherwise you will need to troubleshoot the problem.

    #1 Check if the voltages are the same on the encoder end of the cable.
    #2 Check if the encoder has 5V power and GND
    #3 I thought I remembered there were pull up resistors. Are those connected properly?

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  8. #88
    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Otherwise you will need to troubleshoot the problem.
    #1 Check if the voltages are the same on the encoder end of the cable.
    Tom,
    I was able to checked the voltage at the Motor/Encoder Plug end (Plug connecting to the servo motor, disconnected from the motor), results are:
    Wire #420 (A1+) to GND = 4.776 VDC
    Wire #422 (B1+) to GND = 4.781 VDC

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Otherwise you will need to troubleshoot the problem.
    #2 Check if the encoder has 5V power and GND
    Results at the Motor/Encoder Plug end (Plug connecting to the servo motor, with the plug disconnected from the motor):

    Wire #427 (Y +5 VDC) to GND = 5.041 VDC


    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Otherwise you will need to troubleshoot the problem.
    #3 I thought I remembered there were pull up resistors. Are those connected properly?
    I don't know about this......



    I also checked the voltage on the (A1+ and B1+) while manually rotating the Y-axis servo with the encoder/motor connecting plug reconnected.
    The results were 1.606 VDC to 104 mVDC on (A1+)
    and 1.626 VDC to 104 mVDC on (B1+)

    Does this mean something is wrong with the encoder on the Y-axis servo motor?

    .....
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    J325 Quick Links:

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    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement


    .....
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    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 11-24-2017 at 11:35 PM.


  9. #89
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Tom,
    I was able to checked the voltage at the Motor/Encoder Plug end (Plug connecting to the servo motor), results are:
    Wire #420 (A1+) to GND = 4.776 VDC
    Wire #422 (B1+) to GND = 4.781 VDC
    I'm guessing you didn't really understand the idea was to keep the cable and everything connected. The basic idea is that a wire is a solid piece of copper and should basically have the same voltage along the entire length. If you measure 1.6V at the one end and 4.7V at the other end then the two ends must not really be connected together and there must be a break in the wire. However if you unplug and break the connection then we would expect that the two points wouldn't be connected and wouldn't be at the same voltage.

    Please repeat the test with everything connected. I realize it may be more difficult but you will need to find some way to do it.

    I don't know about this......
    I searched back and I see 3 1Kohm resistors pulling up the A+ B+ and Marker+ pins at the top of page 3 for the X axis. But the note says "Typical for all Axes" so they are probably added to X Y and Z. I believe they can be partially seen in image 026_LG.jpg. Actually if pull ups were really needed I would expect them to be both on the + and - pins. Sometimes pull ups on + sides only are used as a somewhat safety measure so if the Encoder is cut off the signals go to a known state.

    Kanalog has 470ohms termination resistor across the + and - inputs. So with one input pulled to +5V through a 1K ohm and the other pulled low I would expect a voltage of 1.6V. So maybe that is a clue.

    Sorry to ramble on but there are so many unknowns it makes it difficult to guess how it is expected to work.

    It would be helpful to go back and repeat the test where you measure the high and low voltage for each of the A+ A- B+ B- for both Y and X. So far I think you have only given partial measurements. Either for only 2 of the 4 pins or in only one of two states and for only the "bad" axis. Please be more thorough and clear. There should be 16 voltages. High voltage and low voltage for each of the 4 pins (8 numbers) and these for both X and Y.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  10. #90
    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I'm guessing you didn't really understand the idea was to keep the cable and everything connected.
    This would be correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Please repeat the test with everything connected. I realize it may be more difficult but you will need to find some way to do it.
    This check at the encoder end will most definitely be difficult. I will need to purchase a set of Amphenol - 20-27S (14/16 ) connections and make a break-out plug as I do not know of any other way to get this checked at the servo/encoder end. If someone can share some of their experience here in getting at these wires on the servo/encoder end I would greatly appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I searched back and I see 3 1Kohm resistors pulling up the A+ B+ and Marker+ pins at the top of page 3 for the X axis. But the note says "Typical for all Axes" so they are probably added to X Y and Z. I believe they can be partially seen in image 026_LG.jpg. Actually if pull ups were really needed I would expect them to be both on the + and - pins. Sometimes pull ups on + sides only are used as a somewhat safety measure so if the Encoder is cut off the signals go to a known state.
    At the Kanalog JP1 terminal - A Recheck was made for the Encoder High and Low voltage on the A+ A- B+ B- for both Y and X axis as well as the Pull-Up 1KOhm resisters.
    A total of 16 voltage Checks.

    The new results are at this --> LINK <--. (Also in Quick Links below)



    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Sorry to ramble on but there are so many unknowns it makes it difficult to guess how it is expected to work.
    This so called "ramble on" is of great benefit to me in my learning process ... I appreciate the details.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    .... Please be more thorough and clear. ....
    Sorry .... I appreciate your patients with my limit electronic knowledge .... I trust I have it thorough and clear this time.


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  11. #91
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    This check at the encoder end will most definitely be difficult. I will need to purchase a set of Amphenol - 20-27S (14/16 ) connections and make a break-out plug as I do not know of any other way to get this checked at the servo/encoder end. If someone can share some of their experience here in getting at these wires on the servo/encoder end I would greatly appreciate it.
    This probably isn't necessary at this point

    At the Kanalog JP1 terminal - A Recheck was made for the Encoder High and Low voltage on the A+ A- B+ B- for both Y and X axis as well as the Pull-Up 1KOhm resisters.
    A total of 16 voltage Checks.

    The new results are at this --> LINK <--. (Also in Quick Links below)
    Very clear. Thanks. I see all the - signals are basically not changing voltage at all. I'm guessing the encoder outputs are "open collector". This means they are like a switch that is connected to GND that is opening and closing. They don't source any voltage by themselves and need an external pull up resistor that will pull the pin high when they go open. There are two common types of encoders. "Single ended" and "differential". See:

    Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications

    I'm guessing that the old controller just used the + signals and treated the encoders as single ended encoders so they didn't bother to place pull up resistors on the - signals.

    The Kanalog differential encoder inputs require both the + and - signals to go low and high.

    With the - signals always near GND the operation would be very marginal which might explain why X and Z seemed to work and Y not.

    I think the thing to try would be to add 1K ohm pull up resistors (to +5V) to the 6 - signals (411,413,421,423,431,433) in a similar manner as the + signals.

    This would be simpler and better than to try to use KFLOP single ended inputs in a similar manner as the old controller.

    You might start with just adding 2 resistors for Y to test if that makes Y work correctly.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  12. #92
    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I think the thing to try would be to add 1K ohm pull up resistors (to +5V) to the 6 - signals (411,413,421,423,431,433) in a similar manner as the + signals.
    This would be simpler and better than to try to use KFLOP single ended inputs in a similar manner as the old controller.
    You might start with just adding 2 resistors for Y to test if that makes Y work correctly.
    Hello Tom,

    I added the 1K Ohm "Pull-Up" resistors (to +5V) (Wire #427) and the Y-axis (CH) -A (wire #421) & (CH) -B (wire #423) as advised.
    The results were very positive and now in line with the X- & Z axis manual movement checks of the Kanalog position results.
    You can review the new results at this ---- LINK -----.
    (also in the quick links below --> Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement.

    Questions:

    1.) Since this corrected the Y-axis, should I be adding these 1K Ohm "Pull-Up" resistors to the negative channels on the X & Z axis?

    2) Do you advise for me to also add these 1K Ohm "Pull-Up" resistors to the negative "Marker" channels on all three axis as well?

    Thanks again for the great insight.
    .....
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    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
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  13. #93
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Good news

    1.) Since this corrected the Y-axis, should I be adding these 1K Ohm "Pull-Up" resistors to the negative channels on the X & Z axis?
    Yes

    2) Do you advise for me to also add these 1K Ohm "Pull-Up" resistors to the negative "Marker" channels on all three axis as well?
    I wouldn't worry about the marker pulse at this point. It doesn't need to be connected at all. You can connect it later and make use of it for more accurate homing if that turns out to be necessary.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  14. #94
    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Tom -- I have all the 1K Ohm "Pull-Up" resistors connected to all the six channels of the X-axis encoder wires (A+, A-, B+, B- Marker+, Marker-). The same thing has been applied for the Y-axis and Z-axis encoder wires.

    I believe I am now ready for the next step in testing.

    Correct me if I am wrong here; however, I think the next steps in the testing should be to see if KFLOP will control the servo motors speed with encoder feed-back for position.
    To do this, I think I need to:

    #1 -- Run KMotion.exe and open the Console Screen, Configuration Screen and select "Channel 0" for the X-axis, and then "Load Channel" with (KanalogInitialPID.mot).
    #2 -- Also open the "Axis" screen to monitor the X-axis "Position" #0.
    #3 -- Power the System up, making sure 1CON relay in engaged for power to the Amplifier.
    #4 -- Enter a DAC0 = (some value ... say 100) command to verify that KFLOP can control the X-axis Servo Motor.
    #5 -- Hit the "Send" button on the Console Screen ... which should give me the following results.
    #6 -- This should give me a result of moving the X-axis servo motor about 5% of the full speed in a positive X-axis direction motion.
    #7 -- Then I should enter a DAC0 = -100 command to verify that KFLOP can control the X-axis Servo Motor in the opposite direction, which should be the negative X-axis direction at about 5% of full speed.
    #8 -- If I then enter a DAC0 = 0 command, then the X-axis servo motor should Stop and hold position.
    #9 -- If the results are as stated above, then apply this same test of #1 thru #8 above to the Y-axis and the Z-axis.

    Please advise if I am not understanding this correctly.

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-kmotion_test2a-jpg Link to High-Res Picture

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    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister

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  15. #95
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    You should be excited. After all the work this is the fun part where you first get the machine to move.

    Yes you should do all those steps.

    But I think you have a bit of a misconception of what it does. This is pretty much the same as was applying the battery as a test to set the amplifier speeds. So in step #8 the motor commanded to zero speed should stop or nearly stop (drift) but it won't be servoing and holding position. You might read this on drift:

    Kanalog Hardware Info - Dynomotion

    To Enable the Servo you might go to the Step Response Screen and push "Zero" the "Enable". Take case as you have about a 50% chance of the axis running away if the feedback is reversed. See:
    Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications

    With proper feedback the axis should now actually servo and hold position. If you push the motor away it should move back. If so you could then make a "Move" and observe the plot!

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  16. #96
    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    You should be excited.
    YES ... however, now I enter into a new level of confusion ... understanding all the parameters in KMotion.

    This Second Kmotion test was very positive.

    All axis moved with DACxx = 100 in one direction and the opposite direction with DACxx = -100.
    However, they moved in the opposite directions then I expected based on sign .... so, a "-" value moved all axis in the positive x/y/z coordinate direction instead of the negative.

    It was as you said, I most definitely got "Axis Drift"on all axis when a DACxx=0 command was send.


    On the Third Kmotion test ... Enabling the Servo on the Step Response Screen I did get "Run-Away" on the Y-axis and the Z-axis.

    However, during this "Run-Away" the "Position" values on the Axis Screen for 1,2 ( while Enabled) remained unchanged.
    Is this expected?


    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    To Enable the Servo you might go to the Step Response Screen and push "Zero" the "Enable". Take case as you have about a 50% chance of the axis running away if the feedback is reversed. See:
    Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications
    Ok ... in this document it is mentioned:

    "You can change positive to negative feedback by reversing anything in the axis. The simplest thing to reverse is the OutputGain. "

    So, I tried changing, what I thought, was the "OutputGain" on the Y-axis from the "1" to "-1" which started to make the X-axis move when I "Zero" and "Enable" the "1" (Y-axis).
    So, I am confused.


    Tree325 Retrofit Started-001_3rd_test-jpg Link to this Image

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    .... If you push the motor away it should move back.
    I also am not sure what you mean by this ... push the motor away by a DAC=100 command?

    .....
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    J325 Quick Links:

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    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister

    .....
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    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 12-10-2017 at 08:51 PM.


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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Nice project you got going there Following with great interest and I hope you get all the small bumps sorted out. I noticed that so many on there use these motors to power their system. Is 3phase outlets rare in the US or are there other benefits?



  18. #98
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    "You can change positive to negative feedback by reversing anything in the axis. The simplest thing to reverse is the OutputGain. "

    So, I tried changing, what I thought, was the "OutputGain" on the Y-axis from the "1" to "-1" which started to make the X-axis move when I "Zero" and "Enable" the "1" (Y-axis).
    So, I am confused.
    I see you have the Y axis configured to use the X encoder. That would explain why Zeroing the Y axis has an effect on the X Encoder. You might read this:
    Channels Channels Channels - Dynomotion

    I also am not sure what you mean by this ".... If you push the motor away it should move back" push the motor away by a DAC=100 command?
    No I was meaning for you to use your fingers.

    Regards

    Last edited by TomKerekes; 12-11-2017 at 02:43 PM. Reason: typo
    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  19. #99
    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    ...
    .....

    "You can change positive to negative feedback by reversing anything in the axis. The simplest thing to reverse is the OutputGain. "

    I have tried configuring the "OutputGain" of the Y-axis and Z-axis, to what I think is correct; however,
    I am still experiencing Y-axis and Z-axis "Run-Away" after applying "-1" to the "OutputGain" on these axis when I try to "Zero" and "Enable".

    Here are my Configuration screens:

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-axischannel_config_for_runaway-jpg Link to Readable Image


    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister

    .....
    .....[/QUOTE]



  20. #100
    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Your configurations all look correct.

    X axis servos and holds position?

    On Y and Z have you tried both +1 and -1 as OutputGain?

    Do you understand the basic concept of a servo? It goes something like this: Once the servo is enabled if the position starts drifting and say the encoder Position starts increasing, this should cause the DAC Output voltage to start rising, which should cause the motor to start driving the opposite direction to start moving back to where it was, which should cause encoder Position to decrease back to what it was.

    In a typical system there are about a dozen mechanical, electrical, and software elements within the loop that each have a positive or negative value. But they all don't really matter. The product of all of them will either be positive or negative. If positive there will be positive feedback and any error will tend to cause more error and so on to cause a runaway. If negative then any error will tend to be reduced and the result will be a stable system. So if you connect everything up and the result is positive feedback and a runaway then if you reverse one thing in the loop you should have negative feedback and a stable system without runaway. The simplest thing to reverse is the software OutputGain.

    There are really only 3 things required to work correctly for the Axis to properly servo:

    #1 the Encoder must count up and down correctly
    #2 the DAC Output must cause the motor to move forward and backward reasonably
    #3 the Axis must be configured properly and enabled

    I thought you already verified #1 and #2. And #3 looks correct to me. But somewhere there must be a problem.

    The Axis Configuration actually involves parameters on 3 screens: Config/Flash, Step Response, and IIR Filters. You haven't shown us the other 2 screens for each axis. But if you have loaded the default configuration KanalogInitialPID.mot into each axis I'm assuming those are correct.

    It should be obvious from the KMotion Status Screens what is wrong. The Axis Screen shows the desired Destination and what the Encoder is doing. The Analog Screen will show what the Output DAC is commanded to drive the Motor.

    Alternatively you can use the Step Response Screen to Plot exactly what is going wrong. Select Position, Command, Output vs Time Plot Type. Select a move Size of 0. Push "Zero" and "Move". Study the Plot to see what happened or post it for us to review.

    HTH
    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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