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Thread: Tree325 Retrofit Started

  1. #61
    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Well you could do that but it would then interfere with connecting the next axis (Y) to A1+ A1-. So it usually works out better to connect the optional MARKER+/- signals to JP2 (A4+ A4-). MARKER signals can be connected to any unused A or B inputs.

    HTH
    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  2. #62
    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    ....
    Well you could do that but it would then interfere with connecting the next axis (Y) to A1+ A1-. So it usually works out better to connect the optional MARKER+/- signals to JP2 (A4+ A4-). MARKER signals can be connected to any unused A or B inputs.
    Thanks Tom ..... will connect as advised.

    How about the +5VDC & COM encoder wires ..... Can all three axis +5VDC wires get connected to one JP8 +5V terminal as well as all COM wires get connected to one JP6 GND terminal?
    Or do each axis wire need to connect to its own single terminal?

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    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply

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  3. #63
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    How about the +5VDC & COM encoder wires ..... Can all three axis +5VDC wires get connected to one JP8 +5V terminal as well as all COM wires get connected to one JP6 GND terminal?
    Or do each axis wire need to connect to its own single terminal?
    Yes you can electrically connect all to one terminal (other than the mechanical issues with doing so).

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  4. #64
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    .....

    The general rule is with cables that carry signals (not power) the shield should be connected to the DC GND of the listener (receiver/input). So with the analog signals coming from Kanalog (or the Tachometer signals coming from the motor) the shield should be connected to the amplifier DC GND. The Tachometer already does this. For Encoder signals going to Kanalog, the shield should be connected to Kanalog DC GND
    Concerning the shielded wires for the encoder wires. The J325 terminal connector to the existing controller had all the axis shielded ground wires tied together as one wire going to a pin on the existing J325 connector.
    From what I read /understand from the above reply, it I would have expected these shielded GND wires to only be connected at the motor/encoder end and not at the controller connection end.

    Should I be connecting this shielded encoder wire (Kanalog end) to a JP6 terminal GND as well?


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    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply

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  5. #65
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Concerning the shielded wires for the encoder wires. The J325 terminal connector to the existing controller had all the axis shielded ground wires tied together as one wire going to a pin on the existing J325 connector.
    From what I read /understand from the above reply, it I would have expected these shielded GND wires to only be connected at the motor/encoder end and not at the controller connection end.

    Should I be connecting this shielded encoder wire (Kanalog end) to a JP6 terminal GND as well?
    Yes. The encoder is the one transmitting the signals. Kanalog is receiving them. So I believe it is preferable for the shield should be connected to GND on the Kanalog end.

    btw You might check with an Ohm meter to verify the shield is not connected to earth GND at the the motor/encoder end.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  6. #66
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    ....

    btw You might check with an Ohm meter to verify the shield is not connected to earth GND at the the motor/encoder end.
    I am not exactly sure what this means; however, if I check the shield GND at the end of the encoder wires I am connecting to Kanalog with respect to earth ground, then it is connected to earth ground.
    Should I be seeing this on this end?

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  7. #67
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    The idea is to test whether there is some connection between the shield and some ground that we don't know about. If we disconnect all our connections from the shield then the shield shouldn't be connected to anything. So if we measure resistance between the shield and every GND there should be a very high resistance (100K Ohms or greater). The shield is like a wire connecting one end to the other so it doesn't really matter which end we use for this test. If the shield is connected to something (like Earth GND) anywhere along its length then the entire length of the shield will show a low resistance (<1ohm) to Earth GND. After you have proven there are no connections to the shield you can then make the one connection between the shield and Kanalog GND on the Kanalog end and know that that is definitely the only connection.

    HTH

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  8. #68
    Member PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    The idea is to test whether there is some connection between the shield and some ground that we don't know about. If we disconnect all our connections from the shield then the shield shouldn't be connected to anything. So if we measure resistance between the shield and every GND there should be a very high resistance (100K Ohms or greater). The shield is like a wire connecting one end to the other so it doesn't really matter which end we use for this test. If the shield is connected to something (like Earth GND) anywhere along its length then the entire length of the shield will show a low resistance (<1ohm) to Earth GND. After you have proven there are no connections to the shield you can then make the one connection between the shield and Kanalog GND on the Kanalog end and know that that is definitely the only connection.
    Thanks Tom …. I appreciate your willingness to explain this in layman’s terms.

    I removed the servo plug and found that the “J” pin is the shielded wire which runs to the left-side terminal bus were all the axis shielded wires from the motors connect. On the right-side of the terminal bus all the shielded wires from Kanalog are connected.
    When checking resistance from the motor plug pin “J” to the shielded wire connected at JP6 (GND) I am getting 0.5 Ohms. Not what is advised. It would seem to me that the existing J325 design of these encoder wires were connected to ground on both ends if indeed the pin on the existing controller plug went to GND in the controller. I am not sure if that was the case of not.

    If I were to take this motor plug apart would I see that the shielded wire is also connected to a earth GND wire and/or casing? Would I then be able to disconnect this shielded GND wire, from what I am guessing, the casing of the plug. I have not worked with this type of plugs/motor before and I really do not want to start disassembling it without first understanding what I am doing.

    I also want to get your input on any concerns you may see with the way I have the KFLOP/Kanalog board attached to the J325 cabinet door. I want to have it look and be cleaner than this is; however, with it here while I am getting everything working I have easy access to it.

    Here are some related …. Links / Pictures to the above:

    KFLOP/KANALOG Mounted on Door

    Baldor Servo Motor Plug (Pins)

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    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply

    .....
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  9. #69
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    I can't really follow all that you are saying. It also isn't clear sometimes if you are talking about motors or encoders. It isn't clear if the Kanalog GNDs are disconnected when measuring your 0.5 ohms. It might not be super critical how shields are grounded. The worst that is likely to happen is there is some noise that causes loss or gain of encoder counts which results in a slow drift in the position. If the encoder shields are already grounded someplace then I would probably leave them disconnected on the Kanalog end. Connecting a shield two places can cause ground currents to pass through the shield causing ground loops.

    Regarding Kanalog wiring: I've seen cleaner wiring. I expected 3 cables for xyz. There seems to be more. I expected more +5V and GND connections. But its hard to tell from such a photo. Its probably ok for a test if everything is electrically correct..

    I'm not sure about the green GND wire. Where is that going? You might not want that if it is going to earth GND.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  10. #70
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I can't really follow all that you are saying. It also isn't clear sometimes if you are talking about motors or encoders. It isn't clear if the Kanalog GNDs are disconnected when measuring your 0.5 ohms. ....
    Sorry for the confusion, Focus is on encoder shielded wire found in the connection plug that is attached is servo motor, hence the picture. Once I disconnect this connection plug from the encoder/motor I found that pin “J” in this connector to be the shielded wire coming from the Kanalog controller.

    With this connection plug disconnected from the encoder/motor and the opposite end of the shielded wire disconnected from the JP6 (GND) of the Kanalog board I checked the resistance of the shielded wire to earth ground which showed 0.5 ohms of resistance.
    So this shielded wire is still being grounded somewhere. I will be looking into this next.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Regarding Kanalog wiring: I've seen cleaner wiring. I expected 3 cables for xyz. There seems to be more. I expected more +5V and GND connections. But its hard to tell from such a photo. Its probably ok for a test if everything is electrically correct..
    Yes ... there is only three axis encoder wire cables connecting to, what I believe, is correct to the Kanalog board; however, I will clean this up to help with diagnosing issues downstream. I tied the +5vdc wires into one lead and the GND wires into to one lead from each axis cable which is why you only see one set. I will also correct this.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I'm not sure about the green GND wire. Where is that going? You might not want that if it is going to earth GND.
    Should the KFLOP/Kanalog be isolated from the cabinet it is attached too? Like with nylon stand-offs instead of the aluminum ones it came with. Because, I am pretty sure the cabinet is grounded to earth ground, which is what that green wire was doing since it was on a hinged door, I wanted make sure it was grounded. I assumed wrong here. I will be removing the green GND wire.



  11. #71
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Ok that is all very clear and makes sense.

    Should the KFLOP/Kanalog be isolated from the cabinet it is attached too? Like with nylon stand-offs instead of the aluminum ones it came with. Because, I am pretty sure the cabinet is grounded to earth ground, which is what that green wire was doing since it was on a hinged door, I wanted make sure it was grounded. I assumed wrong here. I will be removing the green GND wire.
    Yes Kanalog should be isolated from earth GND. Its ok to use the included aluminum standoffs as the mounting holes are isolated. Only the lug holes marked GND are connected to KFLOP/Kanalog DC GND.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  12. #72
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Focus: Encoder Shielded Wire Resistance:

    OK, I was able to track down the Shielded wires for all three encoder wires. The original Tree 325 design had all three axis encoder shielded wires tied together at the existing Tree controller end. Since the Z-axis shielded wire was the only one grounded at the servo motor/encoder end, it made me think that all axis encoder shielded wires were grounded at both ends.
    After disconnecting all the axis (controller end) and their encoder shielded wires from each other I was able to prove that the X-axis and the Y-axis encoder shielded wires have a resistance >100K ohms.
    However, the Z-axis encoder shielded wire still has a resistance of 0.5 ohms. It would seem that it is grounded on the servo motor/encoder connections side.
    Question: would this make sense since it is next to the 5hp spindle motor?

    Focus: Encoder wires connected to Kanalog:

    I ended up re-mounting the Kflop/Kanalog board today on a nylon cutting board isolated from the cabinet door. I also re-wired all three axis encoder wires. I did ground the X-axis and the Y-axis shielded encoder wires to Kanalog JP6 GND. However, on the Kanalog end for the Z-axis shielded encoder wire I left it disconnect from JP6 (GND) since it is grounded on the servo motor/encoder connection side. I did look from the top of the machine at this plug connector for the Z-axis servo motor/encoder and it would involve removing the spindle motor to get at the plug connector at the servo motor/encoder end to analyze why it is ground at that end. For now, I will not be taking that task on. If this proves to be an issue after I get most of the machine working, I will address that issue then.

    Focus: +/-10 VDC – DAC wiring:

    I also wired up the DAC (Velocity Command Input to the amplifiers) with shielded wires. I connected the shielded wire of each axis (all tied together as one) to the Kanalog (JP11 GND) side. X-axis Positive (Red lead) to JP11 “0”, Y-axis Positive (Red lead) to JP11 “1”, and Z-axis Positive (Red lead at Drive, White at Kanalog end) to JP11 “2”. The COM (negative) leads are connected to JP11 GND.

    I am still waiting for the 5 volt power supply I ordered to arrive.
    I believe once I connect to the 5 volt power supply I am ready for the next step in the testing process.
    Here is a … LINK ... to some pictures of the Kanalog board re-wired up.

    Tom, can you please advise as to what my next step will be?

    Thanks,

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected

    .....
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    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 11-05-2017 at 10:04 AM.


  13. #73
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    After disconnecting all the axis (controller end) and their encoder shielded wires from each other I was able to prove that the X-axis and the Y-axis encoder shielded wires have a resistance >100 ohms.
    I assume you meant to say 100KOhms. But what's 3 orders of magnitude among friends

    However, the Z-axis encoder shielded wire still has a resistance of 0.5 ohms. It would seem that it is grounded on the servo motor/encoder connections side.
    Question: would this make sense since it is next to the 5hp spindle motor?
    I wouldn't think so. Probably the opposite. That might put earth ground noise from the Spindle into the shield and in turn into the signals.

    However, on the Kanalog end for the Z-axis shielded encoder wire I left it disconnect from JP6 (GND) since it is grounded on the servo motor/encoder connection side.
    Probably a good idea in my opinion.

    For now, I will not be taking that task on. If this proves to be an issue after I get most of the machine working, I will address that issue then.
    I think that's reasonable

    I also wired up the DAC (Velocity Command Input to the amplifiers) with shielded wires. I connected the shielded wire of each axis (all tied together as one) to the Kanalog (JP11 GND) side. X-axis Positive (Red lead) to JP11 “0”, Y-axis Positive (Red lead) to JP11 “1”, and Z-axis Positive (Red lead at Drive, White at Kanalog end) to JP11 “2”. The COM (negative) leads are connected to JP11 GND.
    I think it might have been better to ground the DAC shields at the Amplifier end as that is the receiver. But hopefully Kanalog GND is nearly as quiet.

    Tom, can you please advise as to what my next step will be?
    The next step would be to test if the DACs can command any speed, the encoders count correctly, and then if the servo is enabled it servos and holds position. See:
    Kanalog Hardware Info - Dynomotion

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


  14. #74
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    I assume you meant to say 100KOhms. But what's 3 orders of magnitude among friends
    Correct ... I changed this to 100K ohms ....


    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    I think it might have been better to ground the DAC shields at the Amplifier end as that is the receiver. But hopefully Kanalog GND is nearly as quiet.
    I will look into this and change the ground DAC shielded wire on all three axis to the receiver (amplifier) end.

    As always, Thanks for paying attention to the details and correcting me.

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected

    .....
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    I'm probably a bit late to the game, and it's not totally the same thing as a retrofit, but I created a website to document how I got an old Supermax up and running in my garage...and avoided using a phase converter altogether.

    Anyway, for what its worth: http://www.thisoldmill.com



  16. #76
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    I can't help you with your controller/interface issues as I used Centroid DC3IO on my Tree 325 and 425 retrofits, but I'll make a couple of comments on the machines. I looked at the miles of wiring and 20-30 year old components and went straight to the Centroid on the 325 and was able to sell off the Dynapath/drives/vfd stuff to someone who wanted them as spares. My 425 was a new machine that lacked the appropriate servo motors and was undergoing someone's home-brew control design so I bought three new servo motors to go with the Centroid drive/control.

    I didn't see if you've found it already but you should find a box lurking on the underside of one of the cabinets (the back one I think) with a very large transformer in it.

    Do you know if your machine has the 3.5K or 6K RPM pulleys on it? My 325 had the high speed and the Yaskawa spindle motor had an encoder for closing the loop. Running without using that encoder with the 6K pulleys will give you very low torque at low RPMs, as in being able to hold the spindle from moving with your bare hand. My 425 came with the low speed pulleys and no encoder on the MEZ spindle motor, so part of the swap to the 6K pulleys included adding an encoder off the motor and adding an optional daughter board to work with the encoder to the Yaskawa VFD.

    Give the metering valves on the way lube lines a thorough cleaning (or replace them with new ones) and then before you do much axis movement make sure the lube pump is pushing oil all the way through the lines. Sometimes the lines/valves can be clogged with clumpy old oil and you don't want to burn up the ways or the ball screws/nuts.

    You may be better off replacing old wires with fresh ones so you can be sure that there are no hidden "partial connection" problems in the old wiring to have to deal with later. The Centroid and a CT-E VFD eliminated a LOT of wires (and an entire cabinet) on the J325.

    The small monochrome screen on the Dynapath had a lot of burn in and was also dim, the 17" LCD color monitor I use with the Centroid is a huge improvement

    I put fresh standard-size balls in the 325 screws. There was enough wear that the fresh balls helped, though they didn't eliminate all the slop due to wear in the screws/nuts. It can get fiddly but it isn't rocket science to do. This also gives you a chance to thoroughly clean the screws/nuts and the areas around them. Be careful not to foul the sliding cover plates on top of the knee or snag an oil line whilst messing with the screws.

    My 325 had inch ball screws and US electrical components where my later 425 (built by TOS) is all metric. Double check yours to see which way it was built.

    I upgraded the 500 line encoders/resolvers/tachs on the stock Baldor servo motors on the J325 with 2000L encoders and that wasn't too difficult a process. I don't know if you need to do that with your control.

    If you pull the spindle motor make sure you've got plenty of overhead space to lift it up and out of the column and make sure you have a friend to help as it is heavy and an awkward process.

    Fresh axis and spindle belts will probably be needed on an old machine.

    If you make an adapter for the knee crank you can drive it for gross movements with a stout 1/2" drill. My older 1/2" battery drill isn't up to it and I have to use my pneumatic drill.

    A good condition Tree is a nice machine. More controlled Z travel, a tool changer and an enclosure to make using flood less messy sure would be nice, but a 325 is a much better machine than a converted manual Bridgeport.

    cheers,
    Michael



  17. #77
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael M View Post

    Give the metering valves on the way lube lines a thorough cleaning (or replace them with new ones) and then before you do much axis movement make sure the lube pump is pushing oil all the way through the lines. Sometimes the lines/valves can be clogged with clumpy old oil and you don't want to burn up the ways or the ball screws/nuts.

    cheers,
    Michael

    Thanks Michael for the insight into this machine. I have a long ways to go before this thing will be up an running to cut chips.

    I now have the KFLOP/Kanalog connected and powered up ... getting ready to test; however, I though I would take your advice and clean the SHOWA Lube system and replace the meter valves before I start moving the axis too much. It is good thing I did. The tank was full of sludge as well as the steel filter. So I can imagine the meter valves a clogged as well. So I will be purchasing new meter valves and getting them install and get some fresh Mobil Vactra No. 2 pump into the ways.

    I have not traced the Z-axis ways/ball screw lube line yet .... I can just imagine it will be hard to get at. I will most likely try to replace that nylon line right away just to ensure I am good.

    .....
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    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected

    .....
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    For checking metering valves, one trick I read somewhere and used, was to fill the system with ATF (automatic transmission/power steering fluid, which is red), and let it run for a while. Then see if you're getting red fluid on all the ways/ballscrews. Once you're happy everything is working, drain the reservoir and fill it with way lube.

    However, if the machine has been sat for a while, I'd disconnect all the lines and flush them first. If the valves are blocked, just replace them. On the last machine I stripped, I think out of 8 blocked metering valves, I only managed to revive two using various cleaners (if you want to try, carb cleaner is the best option I found).



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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by m_c View Post
    For checking metering valves, one trick I read somewhere and used, was to fill the system with ATF (automatic transmission/power steering fluid, which is red), and let it run for a while. Then see if you're getting red fluid on all the ways/ballscrews. Once you're happy everything is working, drain the reservoir and fill it with way lube.
    ......

    Thanks M_C .... I think I will give this a try this weekend. I just order new meter valves/nylon line tonight assuming the existing meter valves are clogged as this machine was sitting for at least two years before I purchased it. The Z-axis is the main line I have concerns about as I have not traced this line yet. I am hoping the meter values on the Z-axis Ball-screws and ways are the same as the X/Y axis since that is what I ordered for the Z-axis (without looking first).

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected

    .....
    .....



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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    The next step would be to test if the DACs can command any speed, the encoders count correctly, and then if the servo is enabled it servos and holds position. See:
    Kanalog Hardware Info - Dynomotion

    Regards
    OK ... I will bite .... I have the KFLOP/KANALOG connected and tried to apply the the first step in testing; however, I am lost.....

    The basic first steps are to verify the hardware:

    1.) check the encoder counts correctly.

    This is as clear as mud to me ....

    I loaded the "KanalogInitialPID.mot" on channels 0,1, & 2 and here are the results:

    I am not sure what I need to check here. These are my results at the moment
    ....
    ....



    ....
    ....

    In this video are the Kmotion dialog boxes/parameter per the "KanalogInitialPID.mot" channels loaded.

    I see the encoder count is at 250 in these dialog parameter boxes ... I am thinking this is not correct since this servo encoder is a 500 line.

    Can I get some advice on what I am missing here. I have read the documentation and still am lost as what I doing.

    Other Parameters:

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-analog_io_kanalog-png

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-kanalog_digital_io-png

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected

    .....
    .....



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