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  1. #205
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterTheWolf View Post
    ....
    ...

    Thanks mmurray70,
    Visual aids really help me understand more clearly. I think your suggestion is best for me ... get the basic things work first and then add the Konnect. I do not have the electronic insight as many you who have been answering my posts. It takes me weeks/months to get something done that you man most likely can do in weekend. I just do not have anybody to ask about this retrofit but this forum and I do not want to burn anything before I get it all working.

    As far as the cheap solid state goes ... is this what you were referring too that would work for now?

    Is it this "Trigger Current of 5mA" that will allow me to use this will Kanalog?

    Attachment 391226 Link

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister
    Kmotion Configuration Screens "RUN-AWAY"
    Tree Journeyman 325 Designed Specs.
    Tree Journeyman 325 Axis-Tension Frequency Settings
    Final Axis Tuned Error Parameters


    .....
    .....
    I was thinking of these, you tend to see alot of people use these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/SSR-25-DA-2...4AAOSwWxNYrWEq

    Nearly all the functions of my machine are controlled by this type of SSR and Konnect / Kanalog: https://www.digikey.ca/product-detai...7023-ND/180934

    All these solid state relays say AC output, not sure if they work with DC to be honest. The first type are dirt cheap but chinese so may be questionable. They do work, ive used them before and they were fine. But buy spairs if you get them. Also you dont need to wait for them from china, google solid state relay and you will find them in the US. The second type is what came in my Fadal, just showing for an example. These would require some kind of board that they push into. I have no idea where youd find such a board. But if one was available it makes for a great setup.



  2. #206
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    I could really use some help on knowing what wires from the VFD I would connect to KFLOP/Kanalog to start with to get the spindle motor working.

    I tried to put together the information I know so far in this HTML link for ease of reference for those (Tom) willing to help get me get started on connecting up my spindle correctly to KFLOP/Kanalog.

    The wire numbers in these images on this link are the wire numbers that corresponds to the Tree 325 schematic, which I also linked for ease of reference.
    I'm a bit confused as the main Schematics Page 8 seem to indicate a Yaskawa Drive for the Spindle. But you list the DuraPulse Drive. I assume the Schematics are wrong any you actually have and are wired for the Durapulse Drive.

    It also isn't clear whether the Drive is intended to Drive CW and CCW? It seems like only #242 is going to the Digital Input #2. I'm thinking that is an Enable and there is no way to change the direction.

    Analog Input #3 (AI3) relative to the Analog Common (ACM) should be the +/-10V Speed control (Ahh, maybe the + and - voltage is used to determine the direction).

    So I would suggest testing how things work just like you did with the X Y Z amps using a 1.5V battery and 1K resistor. Remove any wiring to AI3 and ACM and connect the battery + resistor.

    You probably need to connect DI2 to +24V to enable the Drive. You might use a 1K ohm resistor as a test to avoid any damage if we are wrong. The notes say only 7ma are required so a Kanalog Opto Output could be used directly for this. We would need to make sure EStop still disables the Drive somehow.

    Once things are understood a Kanalog DAC can be used in place of the battery.

    HTH
    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  3. #207
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    I'm a bit confused as the main Schematics Page 8 seem to indicate a Yaskawa Drive for the Spindle. But you list the DuraPulse Drive. I assume the Schematics are wrong any you actually have and are wired for the Durapulse Drive.

    Yes... the Yaskawa drive was replaced with the DuraPulse before I purchased the machines. The Tree 325 schematic was for reference of the existing wires that go to the DuraPulse drive ... but you already figured that out.

    I will test per your instructions .... thanks!!!

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister
    Kmotion Configuration Screens "RUN-AWAY"
    Tree Journeyman 325 Designed Specs.
    Tree Journeyman 325 Axis-Tension Frequency Settings
    Final Axis Tuned Error Parameters
    VFD Wiring to Existing Tree325 Old Controller


    .....
    .....



  4. #208
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    ....
    Analog Input #3 (AI3) relative to the Analog Common (ACM) should be the +/-10V Speed control (Ahh, maybe the + and - voltage is used to determine the direction).

    So I would suggest testing how things work just like you did with the X Y Z amps using a 1.5V battery and 1K resistor. Remove any wiring to AI3 and ACM and connect the battery + resistor.

    You probably need to connect DI2 to +24V to enable the Drive. You might use a 1K ohm resistor as a test to avoid any damage if we are wrong. The notes say only 7ma are required so a Kanalog Opto Output could be used directly for this. We would need to make sure EStop still disables the Drive somehow.

    Once things are understood a Kanalog DAC can be used in place of the battery.
    I tried connecting 1.5VDC battery with a 1K ohm resistor in series to the VDF terminals AI3 on the positive end and ACM on the negative end with +24VDC & 1K Ohm resister in series to VFD terminal DI2.
    My results were unnoticeable... I got zero movement on the spindle motor and just about zero resistance when I tried to turn the spindle motor by hand. I also flipped the leads on the 1.5VDC battery connection; however, the result were the same. No spindle motor movement.

    I also tried to connect the +24VDC to terminal +24V on the VFD instead of DI2 ... the results were the same ... no spindle motor movement.

    I check all the parameters on the VFD P0.00 thru P10.05 (Chapter 4 of the DuraPluse Manual, first 14 pages are the setting parameters) and the only ones not set to the factory defaults were:

    P0.00=200
    P0.01=32
    P0.02=400HZ
    P0.03=1750
    P0.04=8000
    P0.07=28.0
    P1.01=0.1
    P1.02=0.1
    P2.00=03
    P2.01=0.0
    P2.02=1
    P2.04=200HZ
    P2.06=120v
    P2.07=5.0v
    P2.08=9 (not sure why this would not have been the 1-5hp setting which would be 15)
    P3.00=1
    P3.11=01
    P3.12=02 (DO1 ... At Speed)
    P3.13=03 (DO2 ... Zero Speed)
    P3.14=02 (DO3 ... At Speed)
    P4.00=06 (Frequency determined by -10V to +10V input on AI3 terminal.)
    P4.12 thru P4.18 N/A
    P6.31 thru P6.36=24 (Momentary Power Loss)
    P9.39=1.02 (Firmware Version)
    P9.41=03 (GS3)
    P942=05 (GS3-2010 -- 230V 3ph 10hp)
    P10.00=1024 (Encoder Pulses per Revolution)
    P10.01=00 (this is Disable) is that correct?

    What I also forgot to document in the this HTML LINK was that wires #241 and #243 are not used in this VDF and are connected to each compared to the original Tree design had this connect in the Yaskawa AC Spindle Drive (which page-8 of the Tree Schematic shows).

    What I also found strange was when +24VDC was connect to the VFD terminal DI2 (with 1K ohm resister) I was seeing 47VDC on the +24V terminal on the VFD.
    Should I be seeing this? Wire #240 was still connected to the +24V VFD terminal when I was testing.

    Oh, once more thing, while I was testing with the +24VDC connected to the VFD terminal DI2 (with 1K ohm resister) I was also seeing +24VDC on VFD terminals R1C (wire #298) and R1 (wire #208).

    So needless to say, I am at a lose to know what to do next. Could certainly use some help.


    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister
    Kmotion Configuration Screens "RUN-AWAY"
    Tree Journeyman 325 Designed Specs.
    Tree Journeyman 325 Axis-Tension Frequency Settings
    Final Axis Tuned Error Parameters
    VFD Wiring to Existing Tree325 Old Controller


    .....
    .....



  5. #209
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Hmmm...

    I tried connecting 1.5VDC battery with a 1K ohm resistor in series to the VDF terminals AI3 on the positive end and ACM on the negative end with +24VDC & 1K Ohm resister in series to VFD terminal DI2.
    It isn't clear to me what +24V you were using here. It should be the +24VDC from the Drive. There is likely no GND connection between your other +24V Supply and the +24V Supply inside the Drive. That is probably why when you connect your +24V to the Input (a signal probably near the Drives 0V) the two supplies add together.

    You also aren't being entirely clear when you are measuring a voltage what you are referencing the voltage to (where is the black lead of the meter is).

    It seems the DI inputs can work two ways. They either need to be pulled up to 24V or pulled down to 0V. It isn't clear to me how or where that is configured.

    So please repeat the following:

    #1 measure the voltage of DI2 relative to DCM with nothing connected (I'm expecting 1V or less here)

    #2 connect the 1K ohm resistor between the Drives 24V output and DI2

    #3 Measure the voltage on DI2 now (relative to DCM)

    #4 Apply the 1.5V battery and see if it runs

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  6. #210
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    As Tom says, the VFD should not need an external 24VDC supply, unless it has the capability to be powered separately like modern servo drives.
    However, I'm assuming the VFD powers up with mains voltage applied, in which case no external 24VDC supply is needed.

    Looking at the manual, the VFD is set so it needs DI1 connected to DCM for forward, or DI2 to DCM for reverse (page 4-29 shows the input connections).
    With the VFD powered up, try connecting DI1 to DCM. VFDs normally have to be powered up and gone through any power up tests before this connection is made, otherwise they won't run. If you did want the VFD to run the motor on power up, then there is usually a setting you have to change.
    Usually once the connection is made, the display will change to signify the VFD is now running the motor. Any VFD I've used will display the run frequency at this point, unless the setting has been changed to display something else.

    At that point, try connecting the battery/resistor over the analogue input terminals, and the motor should start turning.



  7. #211
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Hmmm...

    It isn't clear to me what +24V you were using here. It should be the +24VDC from the Drive. There is likely no GND connection between your other +24V Supply and the +24V Supply inside the Drive. That is probably why when you connect your +24V to the Input (a signal probably near the Drives 0V) the two supplies add together.

    You also aren't being entirely clear when you are measuring a voltage what you are referencing the voltage to (where is the black lead of the meter is).
    Regards
    Just for the record ... I connect +24VDC source wire from the old controller (+24VDC source page 9, zone 19D of the Tree Schematic) to Terminal +24V on the VFD and I was checking voltage of relative to the wire #4 (com). I thought I needed to provide the +24VDC to the VFD ... my ignorance.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi PeterTheWolf,
    It seems the DI inputs can work two ways. They either need to be pulled up to 24V or pulled down to 0V. It isn't clear to me how or where that is configured.

    So please repeat the following:

    #1 measure the voltage of DI2 relative to DCM with nothing connected (I'm expecting 1V or less here)

    #2 connect the 1K ohm resistor between the Drives 24V output and DI2

    #3 Measure the voltage on DI2 now (relative to DCM)

    #4 Apply the 1.5V battery and see if it runs
    Ok ... I followed your steps.

    1.) I removed ALL the wire from the VFD terminals.

    2.) Then I measured the voltage of DI2 relative to DCM -- Results were +900mvdc dropping to -900mvdc and once it hit -900mvdc then it jump back to +900mvdc and repeat the drop. Under 1 VDC as you expected.

    3.) Then I connect the one end of a lead to the +24V terminal on the VFD and the other end to a 1K ohm resister and then the other end of the 1K ohm resister to the the DI2 terminal on the VFD. I used a switch here because the first time I connected the spindle motor actually started turning slow and a bit jerky ..... however, after about 30 seconds I got a frequency overload error on the VFD display and it shut down.

    4.) So I reset and then use the switch to turn it on again and check the voltage quickly on DI2 relative to DCM ... my results were about +17.5VDC.

    5.) Then I connect the +1.5VDC battery with the 1K ohm resister in series to AI3 and ACM terminals on the VFD.

    6.) Results ... as you expected Tom ... the spindle motor turned forward at a Frequency of 46.5 Hz according to the display and when I reversed the leads the spindle motor turned in the reverse direction at about 46.9 Hz Frequency according to the display. The display also reported Forward and Reverse direction accordingly.

    7.) COOL!!!!! From what I hear at this slower RPM the spindle bearings sound good.

    Thank you for your insight Tom & M_C.

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-vfd_test1-jpg Picture Link


    What steps do I take from here to get all the wires connected back up and working with Kanalog / NC Code?

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister
    Kmotion Configuration Screens "RUN-AWAY"
    Tree Journeyman 325 Designed Specs.
    Tree Journeyman 325 Axis-Tension Frequency Settings
    Final Axis Tuned Error Parameters
    VFD Wiring to Existing Tree325 Old Controller


    .....
    .....



  8. #212
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Congrats!

    So now you could connect a Kanalog DAC (and GND) where the battery was and a Kanalog Opto Output where the resistor was (to DI2) and you would have control of the Spindle from KFLOP. However for safety reasons (Safety is entirely your responsibility) you probably want something else in hardware to force the Spindle off. EStop? Limit Switches? Overtemp? You have to decide and list all of your requirements. I forget maybe you already have this via the main contactor killing power? Sometimes just killing power can be bad as the Spindle may coast instead of stop. Others are probably better at suggesting requirements. I haven't gone through the old wiring to see what was done before.

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  9. #213
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Congrats!

    So now you could connect a Kanalog DAC (and GND) where the battery was and a Kanalog Opto Output where the resistor was (to DI2) and you would have control of the Spindle from KFLOP. However for safety reasons (Safety is entirely your responsibility) you probably want something else in hardware to force the Spindle off. EStop? Limit Switches? Overtemp? You have to decide and list all of your requirements. I forget maybe you already have this via the main contactor killing power? Sometimes just killing power can be bad as the Spindle may coast instead of stop. Others are probably better at suggesting requirements. I haven't gone through the old wiring to see what was done before.

    Regards
    Some industrial machines will simply coast to a stop in E-stop. People actually test spindle bearings this way, get it up to speed and hit estop and see how loud it is while coasting, works well on direct drive spindles. The Mazak at my last job is like this. My Fadal is like you suggest, hit e-stop and it will stop normally instead of coast. I guess pros and cons of each. The first way will coast which could be dangerous, and the second way E-stop isnt actually cutting power supply to drive.

    Glad you got it working peter. I think it was a good idea to remove all the VFD wiring and just use your own at this point. You might be best of taking that approach with the rest of machine (drawbar, etc) if your get stuck with origional wiring.



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Tree325 Retrofit Started

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