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Thread: Tree325 Retrofit Started

  1. #181
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Some thoughts:

    Personally I would not connect the limit switch override to the controller. To me, I want the limits to kill movement regardless of how I've programmed the controller, as if it was connected to the controller, you have to be fully aware that that output was only active when needed, otherwise you're risking running into the hard stops at full power. With it on a physical switch, should anything go wrong, movement gets killed, and should anything go wrong during recovery, you just need to release the switch.
    I think this is all 100% correct. If the controller is miss programmed, defective, has a bug, or has the wrong program loaded the machine could crash because the controller has the ability to bypass limits.

    On the other hand, with an override pushbutton the Operator could then crash the machine which would theoretically not be possible if the Controller has control of the overrride and is working properly. So I think it boils down to who you trust more. Your Controller, configuration, and software vs the Operator.

    Its up to PeterTheWolf to decide how he would like his machine to work. I'd recommend keeping the Operator Pushbutton at least until you think all the bugs are worked out.

    Also it seems the original system doesn't have any Home sensors. I see the controller seemed to have Home sensor inputs. But those are wired high. So in order to Home automatically using the Limit Switches the Controller would need control of the override.

    Conversely the controller currently doesn't have any way to enable/disable the Amplifiers either (the thing m_c is referring to). Say the Operator pushes the "Stop" button on the Computer Screen and we wish to EStop and disable everything. Or KFLOP detects a runaway axis. Right now the best KFLOP can do is command zero speed to the Amplifiers. So we might add another "switch" in the enable circuit so KFLOP also has a say on whether things are enabled or not.

    Regards



  2. #182
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by m_c View Post
    Personally I would not connect the limit switch override to the controller. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    ...... If the controller is miss programmed, defective, has a bug, or has the wrong program loaded the machine could crash because the controller has the ability to bypass limits.
    I think it is best for me not to connect the hardware limit switches to KFLOP at this time. Since there is too much I am not confident with on the connecting of this and the C-code programming involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I'd recommend keeping the Operator Push Button at least until you think all the bugs are worked out.
    I will keep this manual override connected for careful use for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Those look like good values. But if KFLOP was really set to those values then you should get a following error when the axis hits the limit switch and stops moving. Something isn't right. Maybe you didn't merge those settings into your Initialization C Program? Or didn't execute the C Program? Or executed the wrong Program? Please post your final Initialization C Program. Also verify the Init button is configured to the that program. You can also "Upload" an axis to KMotion.exe to see what the Following Errors are currently set at.
    I am pretty sure I have the Initialization C Program correct and set for the INIT button in KMotionCNC.
    ...
    Here is my INIT FIle.
    ...

    Tool Set-Up Dialog Box:

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-button_setup-jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Also it seems the original system doesn't have any Home sensors. I see the controller seemed to have Home sensor inputs.
    There are no homing sensors on this machine. From what I understand, there was a reference position of each axis that was manually set upon each power-up of the machine.
    I am now looking into getting (3X) proximity switches to mount and connect for a homing position on each axis.
    This home position should then give me an accurate place to set the counts on the soft-limits.

    Can I please get some advice on these sensors?

    This is the sensor I plan to get: PD1-AD-F3

    Also some advice at connecting this to Kanalog.
    Correct me if I am wrong but I am thinking I would connect one sensor like this:

    1.) The Brown (#1) wire would get connect to a 24VDC source.
    2.) The Black (#4) wire would get connect to Kanalog JP15 (Pin 15)
    3.) The Blue (#3) wire would get connected to Kanalog JP15 (Pin 16)

    Then I would need to use C-Program "SimpleHome3Axis.c".

    Question:

    1.) Do I need to add this C-Program to the "INIT" C-Program to test? Or is there a way to test it before adding it to the "INIT" C-program?

    2.) When this "SimpleHome3Axis.c" program runs and the Proximity switch closes the the axis is disabled and then the it "Zero(2); // Zero the position" .... is this "Zero(xx)" what sets the counts on the given axis to 0.0?

    3.) Then I can manually move the given axis to the a position just before it hits the hardware limit ... look at my counts in Kmotion and then use that the software limit setting?

    Sorry if these are elementary questions, I may have a few until I get a better understanding on setting up these switches.

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister
    Kmotion Configuration Screens "RUN-AWAY"
    Tree Journeyman 325 Designed Specs.
    Tree Journeyman 325 Axis-Tension Frequency Settings
    Final Axis Tuned Error Parameters


    .....
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    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 02-20-2018 at 08:42 PM.


  3. #183
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    I am pretty sure I have the Initialization C Program correct and set for the INIT button in KMotionCNC.
    It seems clear the Maximum Following Errors are all set incorrectly. Did you look at your file? I see lines of:

    ch0->MaxFollowingError=10000000;

    Set to reasonable values and try again.

    Can I please get some advice on these sensors?

    This is the sensor I plan to get: PD1-AD-F3

    Also some advice at connecting this to Kanalog.
    Correct me if I am wrong but I am thinking I would connect one sensor like this:

    1.) The Brown (#1) wire would get connect to a 24VDC source.
    2.) The Black (#4) wire would get connect to Kanalog JP15 (Pin 15)
    3.) The Blue (#3) wire would get connected to Kanalog JP15 (Pin 16)
    I think those sensors should work. You have the choice of NPN (work like a switch to GND) or PNP (work like a switch from + supply). Either one will work with Kanalog Opto Inputs. The wiring you describe doesn't list a GND connection back to the 24V Supply. You will need GND connected to the Blue wire. Because you are connecting Kanalog to GND you would need the PNP type. Its more common to use NPN type so I would purchase NPN and connect the load (Kanalog) to the +24V instead.


    Question:

    1.) Do I need to add this C-Program to the "INIT" C-Program to test? Or is there a way to test it before adding it to the "INIT" C-program?
    No you probably don't want to merge homing into your INIT C Program unless you desire to automatically Home every time you initialize. More common is to make a separate program (that runs in a different Thread) and assign it to a HOME button that can be pushed whenever you wish to home. In general any program can be tested out and debugged separately by running it in a separate Thread in KMotion.exe and then after it is working you can decide to merge it with other Programs or not.

    2.) When this "SimpleHome3Axis.c" program runs and the Proximity switch closes the the axis is disabled and then the it "Zero(2); // Zero the position" .... is this "Zero(xx)" what sets the counts on the given axis to 0.0?
    Yes. It will set the Raw Machine coordinates to 0. Depending on GCode Offsets the DROs may or may not go to zero.

    3.) Then I can manually move the given axis to the a position just before it hits the hardware limit ... look at my counts in Kmotion and then use that the software limit setting?
    Yes. Note that on Power up the machine coordinates will not be necessarily aligned to your machine so it doesn't really make sense to use soft limits until after the machine has been Homed. So when soft limits are used normally they are disabled (set to large values) by the Homing routine and restored after the Homing has successfully completed.

    HTH
    Regards



  4. #184
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    It seems clear the Maximum Following Errors are all set incorrectly. Did you look at your file? I see lines of:

    ch0->MaxFollowingError=10000000;

    Set to reasonable values and try again.
    Thanks Tom ... I am sorry for my ignorance ... when I changed the "Input Channels" & "Output Channels" from "1"to "-1" to reverse the motion direction for correct movement on the axis on NC-code I some how did not pay attention to the file I was editing.

    Now I am seeing what you explained earlier on the hardware limits ... in that when I hit the hardware limits the amp power is cut off and then I can use the momentary switch to apply power back to the amp without a scary movement when I hit the "INIT" button and then move off the hardware limit and reinitialize KmotionCNC. It is indeed functioning as designed.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I think those sensors should work. You have the choice of NPN (work like a switch to GND) or PNP (work like a switch from + supply). Either one will work with Kanalog Opto Inputs. The wiring you describe doesn't list a GND connection back to the 24V Supply. You will need GND connected to the Blue wire. Because you are connecting Kanalog to GND you would need the PNP type. Its more common to use NPN type so I would purchase NPN and connect the load (Kanalog) to the +24V instead.

    I will purchase the NPN as advised .... thanks for taking the time to explain this to me.

    I will get these proximity sensors and try my hand at getting the X-axis working correctly (first) with the C-Program "SimpleHome3Axis.c" in a new thread for testing.

    I really appreciate your patience and taking the time to explain the elementary.


    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister
    Kmotion Configuration Screens "RUN-AWAY"
    Tree Journeyman 325 Designed Specs.
    Tree Journeyman 325 Axis-Tension Frequency Settings
    Final Axis Tuned Error Parameters


    .....
    .....



  5. #185
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Thanks Tom ... I am sorry for my ignorance ... when I changed the "Input Channels" & "Output Channels" from "1"to "-1" to reverse the motion direction for correct movement on the axis on NC-code I some how did not pay attention to the file I was editing.
    No worries. Just don't let it happen again

    Regards



  6. #186


  7. #187
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    That looks fine.



  8. #188
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    .....
    .....

    It has been over a month since my last post and I have made zero progress on this project ... not due to the lack of trying.
    I am confused as how to understand the schematic and how the relays on/off affect the features I am trying to get working.
    I have disconnect all the wire from the Tree existing controller. The only wires I have coming from the existing J325 controller is the +24VDC source wire.

    For one of the existing connectors I have set-up a 37 pin break-out board which only has pins #1, 17, 18, & 19 connected to the +24VDC source wire. This was needed to make sure that wire #200 has +24VDC which continues to feed the servos so KmotionCNC will move the drives/axis.

    Here is a PDF of the pin-out and 37 pin break-out board I have set up.

    I have pretty traced most of the wires, not that does me much good at this time since I am unsure what to do with them and Kanalog at this point.

    However, I am trying to jumper some wires first manually to get something working before I try to get Kanalog functioning.

    I am first trying to get the drawbar to release and engage again. The steps I have taken so far are as follows:

    1.) Source the machine air line with pressure at the back of the machine Picture #6

    2.) Apply +24VDC to 13CRE (Relay 13) terminal #14 , This will allow the air pressure to flow through the solenoid valve which should be available to the drawbar.

    3.) I then figured then I would be able to use the Release Drawbar switch on the right-hand side of the head-stock of the machine; however, I get nothing. Obviously I am missing much more ...

    any help would be great.


    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister
    Kmotion Configuration Screens "RUN-AWAY"
    Tree Journeyman 325 Designed Specs.
    Tree Journeyman 325 Axis-Tension Frequency Settings
    Final Axis Tuned Error Parameters


    .....
    .....



  9. #189
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    You're going in the right direction, but without knowing exactly how things interact, it is pretty hard to give specific advice, but I'll give you some pointers.

    Taking the drawbar, you need two requirements, air pressure, and power. Deal with them separately.

    Air pressure wise, is there any kind of master air solenoid that requires power, before the drawbar solenoid gets air pressure?
    Can you check to see if air is getting to the drawbar solenoid? I.e. disconnect the supply (I'm aware if it's a manifold setup, that may not be a viable option). Is there anyway to operate the solenoid manually?
    If it's not possible to check those easily, concentrate on the power supply first.

    Power wise, take what information you have, and on a clean sheet of paper, draw out the wiring diagram starting with your supply at the top of the page, working down to 0V/Ground at the bottom, showing whatever relays/switches/solenoids are in the circuit. Also write on wire numbers.

    The point of this is to try and understand exactly where things get power, where things get grounded,what needs power/grounded to activate the circuit, and try and highlight any flaws in your diagram.
    Once you have that, try applying power to where you think you need to activate the circuit. If it doesn't work, start working through your new diagram, checking voltages, and try and work out why the circuit is not working as you expect.

    Regarding the manual release switch, I would guess that is likely to be interlocked somehow, so you can't actuate the drawbar with the spindle active. There may also be some kind of interlock in the main drawbar control circuit, which is also a reason I suggest to draw a separate diagram.



  10. #190
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    ....
    ....
    Quote Originally Posted by m_c View Post
    You're going in the right direction, .....
    Regarding the manual release switch, I would guess that is likely to be interlocked somehow, so you can't actuate the drawbar with the spindle active. There may also be some kind of interlock in the main drawbar control circuit, which is also a reason I suggest to draw a separate diagram.
    ....
    ....

    Thanks M_C for the reply .... I have been working on all of what you suggested ... well as best I know how and this is what I have so far.

    In short I believe I have it connect correctly so the interlock works to bring the drives in and turn the drawbar on to work via the tool-change switch. When I say I have it working, I mean I have it working with jumper wires connected to make it work. I really want to get KFLOP/Kanalog to controller this without the jumper wires. Which is where I am at now and was hoping to get some more help here on how I get this connected to Kanalog without destroying KFLOP/Kanalog.

    Here is what I have ... it may be wordy but I hope it makes sense.

    Here is what I have found to get the drives to be enabled instead of adding a jumper wire #200 (+24VDC) to wire #206 on 1CR (Relay 1), which was used at the beginning of this retrofit to get the servos moving and tuned with KFLOP & Kanalog.

    1.) There was a wire #203 (E.S.) that was an output from the old existing Delta 20 CNC front panel which seem to get +24VDC when the existing RESET button was engaged.
    2.) So I disconnect the first used #200 jumper wire to #206. This meant the drives no longer had power.
    3.) I connected a #200 (+24VDC) wire to #203 at the front panel area which gave the +24VDC start of the power through the circuit of many relays/switches; however, still no power to drivers.

    Schematic Image Clip Link:

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-enabledrives_1-jpg

    4.) Then on one of the existing plugs disconnected from the existing old controller I took wire #214 (pin 23) and connected it one terminal of a push-button (NO) momentary switch and the other terminal of the switch I connected to #200 (+24VDC).
    5.) What this did for me was: When I push this momentary switch in it would power the drive. The circuit above seems to all be working correctly. The drivers would have power as ICON relay would stay engaged as long as:
    a. No E-STOP button was pushed (engeaged)
    b. No X, or Y over-travel limit switch was engaged.
    c. No spindle overload error existed. ( at this point I do not have the spindle working or connected to anything)
    d. No Excess Errors were bringing in 2CRE (Relay #2) or “Z” axis over-travel limit was existing. (I am not sure what this means yet with the No Excess Errors).

    ....
    ....

    Concerning the circuit for the Drawbar to work, I believe I now have this working correctly.
    1.) The Air line must be connected with at least 80 PSI of pressure.
    2.) This ensures that wire #258 (pin #13 on one of the existing plug removed from old controller) connects with #200 (+24VDC). “Air OK” This needs to be handled by Kanalog; however, I am not sure how to connect this so that Kanalog handles this instead of me using a jumper wire from #258 to #200. Could use some advice on this.
    3.) Then when I use the Drawbar tool-release switch on the machine head-stock (right-hand side) by rotating this switch CCW wire #235 goes from 0VDC to +24VDC.
    4.) Then I ran a jumper wire from Wire #235 (pin #13) from the existing plug disconnect from the old controller to wire #219 (pin 24) of another plug form the old controller I would get +24VDC on #219 at 12CRE (relay #12), and since this relay is not closed because the spindle is at zero RPM wire #220 from 12CRE feeds 13CRE (relay #13_ via wire #220 and bring the in 13CRE (relay #13) (Drawbar On) which allows the Drawbar solenoid to engage the drawbar to change the tool.
    5.) So it works; however, instead of using a jumper wire from wire #235 to wire #219 I need to get Kanalog to handle this. It would be great to get some help with wiring up Kanalog so I do not destroy KFLP and/or Kanalog.

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister
    Kmotion Configuration Screens "RUN-AWAY"
    Tree Journeyman 325 Designed Specs.
    Tree Journeyman 325 Axis-Tension Frequency Settings
    Final Axis Tuned Error Parameters


    .....
    .....



  11. #191
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Have you researched the Relays you need Kanalog to control? Kanalog Opto Outputs can switch 25ma. If the relay coils take less than that current then you can use the Opto Output like a switch for them. If not you will need to add additional relays that the Opto Outputs or Relay Driver outputs can switch and then have that relay contact be the switch.

    Regards



  12. #192
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    ......

    Have you researched the Relays you need Kanalog to control? Kanalog Opto Outputs can switch 25ma. If the relay coils take less than that current then you can use the Opto Output like a switch for them. If not you will need to add additional relays that the Opto Outputs or Relay Driver outputs can switch and then have that relay contact be the switch.

    Thanks Tom .... can you please verify if this relay is safe to use with Kanalog Opto terminals? I am not sure what I am looking at; however, I think it is the 10mA/24V DC in this image.
    If that is the case, then I should be good ... right?

    Here is the specs on the relay this machine was designed with: RY4S-UDC24V (PDF 5-Pages)

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-ry4sudc24v_image-jpg

    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    J325 Servo Drive-SD1525 Manual
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister
    Kmotion Configuration Screens "RUN-AWAY"
    Tree Journeyman 325 Designed Specs.
    Tree Journeyman 325 Axis-Tension Frequency Settings
    Final Axis Tuned Error Parameters


    .....
    .....



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