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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty_Escarcega View Post
    If your servo dynamics amplifier is good you have what you need to drive the spindle. All the amp wants to see is 0-10VDC. Heck you could rig a power supply up and feed 0-10VDC to the amp and your spindle is running.....

    Please describe your current setup
    Computer & software
    Parallel port, USB or Ethernet port?
    Motion controller? Smoth Stepper?Pokeys? No external motion controller?
    Break Out board?
    Axis stepper driver (I think you were using G540 but now you went with the Leadshine knockoff)
    For some reason now I'm not getting notified of new posts, otherwise I would have replied a lot sooner....oh well, glad I checked. (Edit: notification got caught in Gmail's spam folder, took care of that......)

    Using the SD servo amp is what I was thinking might work for now, glad you suggested it. Here are all the specs for my current setup, let me know if I leave out something important:

    Computer is a home built PC running LinuxCNC, using an add-in parallel port. I had some problems with another PC at first, but I dug up another one that seems to be good. Latency is very low so I can generate pulses at least 50kHz which I think will be good enough, at least for the axis drives, but not sure whether that comes into play driving the spindle. I've done some testing of the parallel port and I'm getting good signals out of it. I even temporarily set up a solid state relay to one of the pins, connected the spindle brake to it, and tested it in LinuxCNC--worked perfectly. I configured it to turn the spindle on with one pin and the brake on another pin--within LinuxCNC the spindle motor and brake showed up on the control panel, and when I toggled the spindle on it automatically turned the brake off, then back on when toggling the spindle off. I have the cable connected to a simple PP breakout board (just for temporary use but could be used for other signalling) and checked some other pins using a meter, got solid 5V (or close to it) to 0V while toggling various connections.

    No external motion controller just yet. LinuxCNC does allow for at least two add-in parallel ports so more I/O's can be added that way. I am getting the Leadshine MX3660 (Leadshine Technology Co., Ltd.) which has some basic I/O on it, so I can connect limit switches and e-stop, and there is also a 0-10V analog output, so hopefully this can be utilized to signal the servo amp.

    Last edited by drhanger; 02-19-2017 at 03:13 PM.


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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    I had a little fun today playing with the presser bar motor just to see what it would take to use it for manual tool changing. I pulled the motor and studied the name plate for a bit, then looked up how an AC induction motor reverses direction. I found a wiring diagram and explanation of how using a capacitor and reversing the connection to the capacitor reverses the motor. The name plate specified a 25 mFd capacitor, so I located them (one for the presser motor and one for the carousel arm) on the changer circuit board and removed one of them. Then I made a make shift circuit according to the diagram--by changing the yellow alligator clip from one side of the capacitor to the other I could reverse the motor. The motor is rated for 100/110VAC so I just connected it to house voltage for a short burst only. Now if I can figure out how to implement the end to end sensors, or make some kind of clutch mechanism, I can use the two buttons on the front of the head casting to operate the motor. It might be more trouble than a pneumatic cylinder or even a manual torque lever, but it's fun to try.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit-2017-02-19-16-42-08-jpg   Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit-2017-02-19-16-49-36-jpg  


  3. #23
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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Quote Originally Posted by drhanger View Post
    I had a little fun today playing with the presser bar motor just to see what it would take to use it for manual tool changing. I pulled the motor and studied the name plate for a bit, then looked up how an AC induction motor reverses direction. I found a wiring diagram and explanation of how using a capacitor and reversing the connection to the capacitor reverses the motor. The name plate specified a 25 mFd capacitor, so I located them (one for the presser motor and one for the carousel arm) on the changer circuit board and removed one of them. Then I made a make shift circuit according to the diagram--by changing the yellow alligator clip from one side of the capacitor to the other I could reverse the motor. The motor is rated for 100/110VAC so I just connected it to house voltage for a short burst only. Now if I can figure out how to implement the end to end sensors, or make some kind of clutch mechanism, I can use the two buttons on the front of the head casting to operate the motor. It might be more trouble than a pneumatic cylinder or even a manual torque lever, but it's fun to try.
    A+ for experimentation
    There should be sensors up there to let the control know when it is down and up. Those would stop the motor at the appropriate time.
    You could wire them to solid state relays perhaps one down one up?



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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Quote Originally Posted by drhanger View Post
    For some reason now I'm not getting notified of new posts, otherwise I would have replied a lot sooner....oh well, glad I checked. (Edit: notification got caught in Gmail's spam folder, took care of that......)

    Using the SD servo amp is what I was thinking might work for now, glad you suggested it. Here are all the specs for my current setup, let me know if I leave out something important:

    Computer is a home built PC running LinuxCNC, using an add-in parallel port. I had some problems with another PC at first, but I dug up another one that seems to be good. Latency is very low so I can generate pulses at least 50kHz which I think will be good enough, at least for the axis drives, but not sure whether that comes into play driving the spindle. I've done some testing of the parallel port and I'm getting good signals out of it. I even temporarily set up a solid state relay to one of the pins, connected the spindle brake to it, and tested it in LinuxCNC--worked perfectly. I configured it to turn the spindle on with one pin and the brake on another pin--within LinuxCNC the spindle motor and brake showed up on the control panel, and when I toggled the spindle on it automatically turned the brake off, then back on when toggling the spindle off. I have the cable connected to a simple PP breakout board (just for temporary use but could be used for other signalling) and checked some other pins using a meter, got solid 5V (or close to it) to 0V while toggling various connections.

    No external motion controller just yet. LinuxCNC does allow for at least two add-in parallel ports so more I/O's can be added that way. I am getting the Leadshine MX3660 (Leadshine Technology Co., Ltd.) which has some basic I/O on it, so I can connect limit switches and e-stop, and there is also a 0-10V analog output, so hopefully this can be utilized to signal the servo amp.
    Run with Linux CNC then. I think I would have used the Mesa boards but whatever works....(More I/O and no parallel port)
    You will use the 0-10V VFD output to drive your SD3060. Keep in mind though, you need to keep that big Isolation transformer.
    You will likely need to figure out if MX3660 supplies the 10V signal OR you have to feed it 10VDC for it to scale the output. Once you figure that out test it, set the spindle pulley speed to be 0-4800rpm. Then command an M3 S2400, you should see a 5VDC output from the MX3660. Then command S4800, you should see 10V out. If you have to supply the 10VDC voltage to the MX3660, I think you could use a 9VDC battery for testing purposes.

    You could use a 9VDC battery for this test. You may have to use voltage dropping resistors and a 12VDC power supply to get your 10VDC. The VFD usually supplies the 10VDC voltage.



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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Marty, do you recall what pins you connected the battery to for testing? The image attached shows the connector from the main board--I was thinking pins 2 and 4 (signal in and signal ground) but not really sure. And what exactly does the +/- 15V PS do?

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit-sd3060-connector-gif  


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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Quote Originally Posted by drhanger View Post
    Marty, do you recall what pins you connected the battery to for testing? The image attached shows the connector from the main board--I was thinking pins 2 and 4 (signal in and signal ground) but not really sure. And what exactly does the +/- 15V PS do?
    Yes, signal in and signal ground. Reverse the battery polarity on those two and the motor will run at the same speed forward and backward. 1.5V battery will do fine. 9Volt will take it nearly full speed.
    Let us know how you make out.



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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    The +/- 15V is a bias supply for the controller, normally is not connected to anything, at least on the 8 SD drives I am involved with. Most controllers have their own +/- 15V supply for the bias supply. From this, the +/- 10 volt command signal is generated by the D to A converter.



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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Jim's comments made me go look at the SD3060 manual. Something caught my eye. See the section on input pins J2. and a jumper that enables differential signal input. I wonder if you move the jumper to enable J2 (differential signal input) and put a positive voltage on Pin 1, if the motor rotates in reverse. Then if you put a positive voltage in on Pin 2, the motor rotates forward. Jim might you concur? this could allow the use of a SPDT relay when running in reverse. The analog signal from the controller on the common and the NC to Pin 2 of SD3060 and the NO to Pin 1 of the SD3060. When reverse is called the relay energizes and flips teh analog signal to Pin 1 of the SD3060.

    SD3060 manual attached for convenience.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit-sd_3060-pdf  


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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Marty, I noticed that yesterday when I was reviewing my connections and wondered about that myself. I didn't really have time to think much about it, though, and didn't really trust my instincts about it. I'm glad you noticed that, maybe there's hope.

    My battery test has not been successful yet, but I will need to detail that in a later post.



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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Pins 2 and 4 are normally used as the signal input. I have not seen pin 1 used. Pin 2 connected to positive should cause the motor to rotate in one direction, pin 2 connected to negative should cause the motor to rotate in the opposite direction. Using a relay to invert the pin 2, 4 signal should work. Make sure pins 6, 7, 8, 13 are not grounded (to pin 4 or 11), this disables the drive.



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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Here is a wiring diagram for operating the presser bar outside of the original controls.
    You reuse the red and green buttons but will need a new capacitor and two DPDT 12vdc relays.
    The limit switches are NOT wired in so it will be easy to over shoot and jam the presser bar.

    Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit-presserbarwiring-jpg

    Sorry for the poor picture quality. I''ll see if I can make a nice one in the next few days...

    Timothy

    Dyna Mechtronics DM4400, HAAS VF-0E, HAAS Mini Mill


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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Like my uncle used to say, so far no good.

    Connections:
    1. (Diagram 1) 120VAC household power (just like before, so I know it should work with that) connected to TB202 terminals 1 and 2. Problem I'm having here is that whenever I power up the amp I get a surge that often trips the 20A breaker. Usually a couple of resets gets it to stay powered up, but it's not going to work like that. There must be some piece of electronics that I removed that should control that, but what I don't know. There are a couple of timers as part of the original equipment, I'm wondering if I should hook the amp to one of those and whether that would make any difference. I'm thinking it won't but don't know.

    2. Normally there's a jumper from those 2 terminals to TB201 for powering the fan and 15V PS, but whenever I connect that my old friend the ground fault led on the amp lights up. Don't know if that indicates a genuine problem or if I need to do something else to connect it properly. For now I'm not connecting that jumper, but whether this prevents the amp from running the spindle I don't know.

    3. Motor armature wires on TB202 terminals 4 and 5. This is connected directly to J5 (Motor Violet and Blue, Diagram 2). When I have the amp powered up I can get 168VDC on the ground and +bus next to those terminals at J5, so DC power is being generated.

    4. Motor brake connected to 120VAC so that the motor is free to turn.

    5. Fresh D cell battery (1.6VDC) connected to J1 pin 2 (+) and pin 4 (-), but not until after the amp is powered up. Once the battery is connected nothing happens--no output at all at the armature terminals.

    There is also a 1A fuse (diagram 1, F201) that blows consistently. That may be from the power surge I suppose, but that fuse was not blowing previously on this working amp.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit-14-pdf   Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit-07-pdf  


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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ferrous View Post
    Here is a wiring diagram for operating the presser bar outside of the original controls.
    You reuse the red and green buttons but will need a new capacitor and two DPDT 12vdc relays.
    The limit switches are NOT wired in so it will be easy to over shoot and jam the presser bar.

    Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit-presserbarwiring-jpg

    Sorry for the poor picture quality. I''ll see if I can make a nice one in the next few days...

    Timothy
    Yeah, I remember now you telling me about the overshoot. I had forgotten that, but it sounds like we're on the same page. Thanks.



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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    The inrush on the drive power supply is really high. Maybe in the 100 Amp+ range, it only lasts for a fraction of a second, but it may be enough to trip a 20 amp breaker. I normally use D-curve breakers for powering up power supplies, they have a longer time to trip on overload. One way around this is to use a solid state relay (SSR), with a zero-crossing turn on. This insures that it powers up at 0 volts, then the voltage increases as a function of the 60Hz waveform over about 8 ms. This gives the capacitor time to charge a bit before full voltage is applied thus reducing the inrush current.



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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Had a major breakthrough today and got the spindle turning, but too tired to detail what I did, and there are still some issues that are preventing perfect operation. The important thing right now is that the amp is still operational and the spindle does turn. I will make a more detailed update soon.



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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    I've made some good headway into getting the spindle/amp working, but like I said before it's not completely without problems. Prior to working on the spindle I only had a couple of things needing power, including the stepper driver (now using the MX3660), the onboard power supplies (5/12VDC and 48VDC) for the steppers, the spindle brake, and the oiler. I had been using a single 120VAC garage circuit for it, which was my starting point for the spindle amp. That's where the power surge came in, tripping the breaker. I think that must have been what was blowing the 1A fuse on the amp and causing the ground fault, disabling the amp completely.

    I decided to go back to using the isolation transformer, reasoning in my limited understanding that perhaps the isolation aspect of it would prevent the surge on the spindle amp, and it appears I was correct. I stripped all the old wires off the secondary, re-connected the single phase 240VAC to the primary and checked the secondary outputs. This is where one of the (possible) problems appears--the machine manual calls for 220VAC primary supply, but with the higher input voltage (my line actually reads 243VAC), I'm getting higher outputs than the labeling on the secondaries state. For example, the output labeled 115V is actually putting out 128V. I went ahead and used this as a primary power supply for the cabinet components, but I'm concerned that I may be causing some long term damage. Do I need to address this problem?

    Anyway, after connecting the amp this way, everything fired up just fine--no more ground fault on the amp, and no fuse blowing. All good, except for the second problem, which is a high frequency ringing from the amp/motor, and the ringing is related to the issue of the spindle turning slowly on its own, so some small amount of DC voltage is being passed to the armature. I tried fiddling with the balance pot on the amp, and I could trim out the turning of the spindle, temporarily at least, but it changes randomly. I also noticed that with certain movements while working around the amp, the ringing changes intensity, leading me to reason again that something from the original installation was missing and needed to be replaced, but what I don't know. Page 8 of the manual (attached) shows pin 8 will disable the amp when pulled to ground--I tried that and it did work, the ringing stopped and I was able to turn the spindle by hand without any back force, so maybe that was being used as part of the original installation--there is a wire at pin 8 from the original connector, which seems to support my theory. I traced that wire back in the original schematic, and it's tied to one of the connectors on the original spindle speed board. Maybe this needs to be tied to one of my I/O's in Linuxcnc when commanding a spindle stop. Any thoughts on that?

    The best news is that I was successful in controlling the spindle through Linux, including changing spindle speeds. The MX3660 includes a 10VDC analog output for speed control, but no onboard 10V PS, so I had to supply the input voltage. The manual says the input will accept 5-15V, so I connected that to the 12V PSU in the cabinet. Then I set up linux to output a PWM signal on pin 14 of the parallel port, which connected with the analog output on the MX3660. Before connecting this output to the amp, I experimented with changing spindle speeds in linux and observed the voltage on the analog output, and sure enough the voltage varied according to the commanded speed. At this point I felt confident enough to make the connection to the amp, and at last got the spindle turning with speed control!

    One big concern I have with the overall project--I know from all the reading I've done that grounding properly is an important concern, and yet with all the reading I've done it's still a murky subject for me. I wonder if that may be part of the ringing issue with the amp, and what other problems may arise out of my ignorance on the subject. If anyone can advise me of what and how I should be grounding I would greatly appreciate it.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit-08-pdf  


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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Quote Originally Posted by drhanger View Post
    I've made some good headway into getting the spindle/amp working, but like I said before it's not completely without problems. Prior to working on the spindle I only had a couple of things needing power, including the stepper driver (now using the MX3660), the onboard power supplies (5/12VDC and 48VDC) for the steppers, the spindle brake, and the oiler. I had been using a single 120VAC garage circuit for it, which was my starting point for the spindle amp. That's where the power surge came in, tripping the breaker. I think that must have been what was blowing the 1A fuse on the amp and causing the ground fault, disabling the amp completely.

    I decided to go back to using the isolation transformer, reasoning in my limited understanding that perhaps the isolation aspect of it would prevent the surge on the spindle amp, and it appears I was correct. I stripped all the old wires off the secondary, re-connected the single phase 240VAC to the primary and checked the secondary outputs. This is where one of the (possible) problems appears--the machine manual calls for 220VAC primary supply, but with the higher input voltage (my line actually reads 243VAC), I'm getting higher outputs than the labeling on the secondaries state. For example, the output labeled 115V is actually putting out 128V. I went ahead and used this as a primary power supply for the cabinet components, but I'm concerned that I may be causing some long term damage. Do I need to address this problem?

    Anyway, after connecting the amp this way, everything fired up just fine--no more ground fault on the amp, and no fuse blowing. All good, except for the second problem, which is a high frequency ringing from the amp/motor, and the ringing is related to the issue of the spindle turning slowly on its own, so some small amount of DC voltage is being passed to the armature. I tried fiddling with the balance pot on the amp, and I could trim out the turning of the spindle, temporarily at least, but it changes randomly. I also noticed that with certain movements while working around the amp, the ringing changes intensity, leading me to reason again that something from the original installation was missing and needed to be replaced, but what I don't know. Page 8 of the manual (attached) shows pin 8 will disable the amp when pulled to ground--I tried that and it did work, the ringing stopped and I was able to turn the spindle by hand without any back force, so maybe that was being used as part of the original installation--there is a wire at pin 8 from the original connector, which seems to support my theory. I traced that wire back in the original schematic, and it's tied to one of the connectors on the original spindle speed board. Maybe this needs to be tied to one of my I/O's in Linuxcnc when commanding a spindle stop. Any thoughts on that?

    The best news is that I was successful in controlling the spindle through Linux, including changing spindle speeds. The MX3660 includes a 10VDC analog output for speed control, but no onboard 10V PS, so I had to supply the input voltage. The manual says the input will accept 5-15V, so I connected that to the 12V PSU in the cabinet. Then I set up linux to output a PWM signal on pin 14 of the parallel port, which connected with the analog output on the MX3660. Before connecting this output to the amp, I experimented with changing spindle speeds in linux and observed the voltage on the analog output, and sure enough the voltage varied according to the commanded speed. At this point I felt confident enough to make the connection to the amp, and at last got the spindle turning with speed control!

    One big concern I have with the overall project--I know from all the reading I've done that grounding properly is an important concern, and yet with all the reading I've done it's still a murky subject for me. I wonder if that may be part of the ringing issue with the amp, and what other problems may arise out of my ignorance on the subject. If anyone can advise me of what and how I should be grounding I would greatly appreciate it.
    On the inside of the control cabinet on the bottom, did you leave that transformer looking thing in there and in the spindle circuit?
    My machine also outputs a high pitched noise, but I don't know how loud yours is
    Remember I told you that you HAD to use that Isolation Transformer? Servo Dynamics support insisted on it as well. I use 125V for just the Amp power and the other for the rest inside the cabinet.
    Good you got the spindle running. Battery voltage should have worked but I think you were having issues....
    As Jim suggested, you had a 15V power supply right on the amp...
    Balance as close as you can. Follow the SD manual on tuning it. Remember there is a brake that locks the spindle when off, so you need a relay to also unlock the spindle when commanded to turn.
    Sounds like you are making good progress in the right direction

    I don't know what is up with CNCZONE, I'm subscribed to your thread, but not getting notifications of new posts.....



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    One thing about grounding that is confusing is what is being called a ground. There are commons that are called ground, but they are more properly returns. In other words, they are just the other side of a power supply, for instance, +5vdc and it's common or return. It is just 0 volts relative to the 5vdc +, or the other side of the circuit, but not necessarily earth or machine grounded. A true ground is just that, connected to the machine then to the earth at some point.

    It really just requires some experience to translate what the heck they are saying. The grounds referenced in your attachment are digital returns, to pins 4, 9, and 11, which as I remember it, are connected together internally.

    The high pitched whine from the motor is from the PWM chopper running at around 4 KHz. In that system there is no way to change the chopper frequency. A choke between the drive and the motor might help. I have one that does the same thing, drives me nuts.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    One thing about grounding that is confusing is what is being called a ground. There are commons that are called ground, but they are more properly returns. In other words, they are just the other side of a power supply, for instance, +5vdc and it's common or return. It is just 0 volts relative to the 5vdc +, or the other side of the circuit, but not necessarily earth or machine grounded. A true ground is just that, connected to the machine then to the earth at some point.

    It really just requires some experience to translate what the heck they are saying. The grounds referenced in your attachment are digital returns, to pins 4, 9, and 11, which as I remember it, are connected together internally.

    The high pitched whine from the motor is from the PWM chopper running at around 4 KHz. In that system there is no way to change the chopper frequency. A choke between the drive and the motor might help. I have one that does the same thing, drives me nuts.
    Hi Jim, it had a good sized choke. That's why I asked Dan if he left that transformer looking device in the bottom of the csbinet. It lies between the SD3060 and the motor.

    I'm not sure what Dan is asking about grounds. Grounded conductors are as you point out, Commons or returns. Grounding conductors are chassis grounds. Dan can you clarify your question?



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    Default Re: Build log-drhanger's DM4400 electronics retrofit

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty_Escarcega View Post
    On the inside of the control cabinet on the bottom, did you leave that transformer looking thing in there and in the spindle circuit?
    Yes, I believe that's the choke that Jim is referring to in his next post. It's shown in the DM4400 wiring diagram on sheet 5. I figured that was important so just left it.

    My machine also outputs a high pitched noise, but I don't know how loud yours is
    Remember I told you that you HAD to use that Isolation Transformer? Servo Dynamics support insisted on it as well. I use 125V for just the Amp power and the other for the rest inside the cabinet.
    Going through the transformer certainly took care of the surge problem. I had thought of removing it, but glad I didn't. So using the 128V that's supposed to be 115V is probably going to be okay, I guess.

    Good you got the spindle running. Battery voltage should have worked but I think you were having issues....
    As Jim suggested, you had a 15V power supply right on the amp...
    Balance as close as you can. Follow the SD manual on tuning it. Remember there is a brake that locks the spindle when off, so you need a relay to also unlock the spindle when commanded to turn.
    As far as the brake, for now I am just connecting it to the power supply so that it's energized whenever the machine is on. I know I will need to change that when (if) I get the ATC working, but for now this works.

    I don't know what is up with CNCZONE, I'm subscribed to your thread, but not getting notifications of new posts.....
    Check your spam folder, for a while I wasn't getting notified until I checked mine. I use Gmail online and there's a button at the top of spam messages called 'not spam', once I did that it's been fine.



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