dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

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  1. #1
    habituralcnc's Avatar
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    Default dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    hello everyone,

    first post so go easy
    Trying to work out the right way to earth dyn4 servo system with a dspmc controller

    still confused if i need to bond the dc common buss to earth ground ?
    considering if the 24V power supply is internally connected to ground, also unsure.
    does anyone have experience with this controler and dyn4 ?
    Ive have attached a sketch interpretation of how i think to wire the ground, does this look correct?

    From dspmc manual see pdf attached :

    "in order to filter the electrical noise from motors, drives and vfds, the GND (common)pins on j2....j7 should be tied to the earth ground at multiple points.
    the following example shows GND pins on j2 tied to earth ground.
    in addition, the power supply negative terminal should also be connected to any of the j2..j7 GND pins at two or more
    terminals"

    how do you guys in interpret that as ?

    Best Regards



  2. #2
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    It sounds like the way i normally treat the common of any supplies, which is connect to the service earth ground where possible.
    Generally multiple points can be grounded, AKA equi-potential bonding, where possible all grounded points should end up at the GND star point somewhere on the system chassis for example.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


  3. #3
    Member mactec54's Avatar
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Quote Originally Posted by habituralcnc View Post
    hello everyone,

    first post so go easy
    Trying to work out the right way to earth dyn4 servo system with a dspmc controller

    still confused if i need to bond the dc common buss to earth ground ?
    considering if the 24V power supply is internally connected to ground, also unsure.
    does anyone have experience with this controler and dyn4 ?
    Ive have attached a sketch interpretation of how i think to wire the ground, does this look correct?

    From dspmc manual see pdf attached :

    "in order to filter the electrical noise from motors, drives and vfds, the GND (common)pins on j2....j7 should be tied to the earth ground at multiple points.
    the following example shows GND pins on j2 tied to earth ground.
    in addition, the power supply negative terminal should also be connected to any of the j2..j7 GND pins at two or more
    terminals"

    how do you guys in interpret that as ?

    Best Regards
    No attachment

    No you should not connect the DC Common to the Bus Earth Ground , unless your Control ( Breakout Board is at the Earth Ground ) Potential

    You need to use a star Point Earth Ground Bus or a stud mounted on the Earth Ground Plane ( chassis )

    Mactec54


  4. #4
    habituralcnc's Avatar
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    hello,
    Thank Al_the_Man and mactec54 for taking the time to reply
    but im still confused.
    dam didn't realise my attachment got compressed
    the best i can do then is provide a link to my other thread on
    machsupport.com where you can see my attachments full-size hopefully

    https://www.machsupport.com/forum/in...=42793.new#new

    sorry this is probably such a simple thing for you guys but I'm stuck
    please if you can spare some time check out my schematic and tell me what you guys think of it
    would be much appreciated.

    Best Regards



  5. #5
    habituralcnc's Avatar
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    To make matters possibly more complicated i have three ip66 steel
    electoral enclosures.
    One for dirty ac service power, breakers, power supplys,
    line reactors,

    second enclosure houses 4 dmm dyn4 servo drives,emi filters,
    safety contactors,

    Third enclosure houses dspmc control all low voltage dc.

    I may Tig weld first and second enclosures together with an
    extension fabricated & divider between first and second enclosure for
    more space,shielding and to simplify grounding & airflow for drives
    keeping third enclosure dspmc and all low voltage control wiring separate.

    Am i right in thinking that multiple component mounting ground planes
    should have a separate star low impedance bonding to the service earth
    ground bus in first enclosure?
    or
    Are they all bonded in a chain if so how does this not create ground loops?

    how are the enclosures grounded in relation to component mounting
    ground planes?

    Best Regards



  6. #6
    habituralcnc's Avatar
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    re,mactech54

    So i suppose the question is then is the dspmc at the earth ground potential i suspect it maybe, as it uses
    earth ground and com- to filter noise from signals ??



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    Member mactec54's Avatar
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Quote Originally Posted by habituralcnc View Post
    re,mactech54

    So i suppose the question is then is the dspmc at the earth ground potential i suspect it maybe, as it uses
    earth ground and com- to filter noise from signals ??
    No it would not be using Earth Ground to filter noise Earth Ground always carries a lot of noise

    Mactec54


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    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Quote Originally Posted by habituralcnc View Post
    hello,
    Thank Al_the_Man and mactec54 for taking the time to reply
    but im still confused.
    Best Regards
    There is something implemented now called equi-potential bonding, this is ensuring that all parts of the machine are at earth GND potential, this also allows the now recommended method of grounding shielding at both ends.
    Initially when CNC equipment was implemented with low voltage control etc, earthing one end of the shield was the recommended way, but thing have changed since then.
    Siemens wrote a paper in this method a while ago.
    In all the years I have been in the CNC retro-fitting business, I have always grounded all power supply power commons to the star point, it has always served me in good stead, and incidentally has cured many problems posted here by users experiencing spurious noise triggering false inputs etc.
    The quote in your post regarding bonding confirms this.
    If you have separate enclosures they should all be bonded together with a common GND together with the service GND.
    I can post the Siemens paper if you need.
    Al.
    A couple to go on with.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler-groundingandbonding2-2-pdf  
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Al_The_Man; 03-31-2020 at 11:32 PM.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Hi,
    Thanks again for your time
    don't want to start any dispute, but are you guys saying the same thing or do you have different opinions?


    To: Al_The Man,
    yes if you can post the paper would be great thanks for the good Read!
    i'll keep reading but i still don't understand why bonding doesn't create ground loops
    and i'll keep banging my head against the wall untill it go's in, i guess

    To: mactec54
    just wondering if you own a dspmc controller because what you and everyone I've asked says is contradictory to the dspmc manual page 24 analog servo drive connection.pdf.

    I first asked these questions to see how normally in the industry tech wire servo drives in regards to analog +/-10V maybe the dspmc uses a different method ?

    I now have now wired Ain+ on dmm servo to analog output0 +/-10v on dspmc and
    Ain- to analog gnd on dspmc only
    it works but is it correct?

    Again thanks for both of your time much appreciated

    Best Regards



  10. #10
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Essentially a ground loop is caused by a differential in continuity (potential) with separate parts of the ground plane in a system.
    A current method to attempt to eliminate this is something called equi-potential bonding, which attempts to eliminate this by connecting different part of the machine, as well as supplies to the earth ground plane.
    There has always been two areas of thought on keeping the sections of a system either isolated from each other and the ground, or the other, which I have always subscribed to, and that is to make all system common to earth ground potential.
    Over the years, this method has served me well with no problems as to earth loops and spurious noise problems etc.
    I have always grounded the common of supplies where it is at all possible and set up a star point ground plate.
    The Siemens paper is a good example.
    Al.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler-cncgndsiemens-pdf  
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

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  11. #11
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    Thumbs up Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    There has always been two areas of thought on keeping the sections of a system either isolated from each other and the ground, or the other, which I have always subscribed to, and that is to make all system common to earth ground potential.
    ...
    I have always grounded the common of supplies where it is at all possible and set up a star point ground plate.
    The Siemens paper is a good example.
    Al.
    Thank you AI_The_Man for mentioning explicitly about "two areas of thought" on this matter. Indeed I was confused many time over the years by contradictory recommendations when dealing with development of the analog circuits driven by sensors and also DC-DC converters. Some papers warn to not create ground loops races by multiple ground wires, while others recommend increase ground strength by multiple wiring... subject to many other variables in the system.
    @habituralcnc - you shouldn't feel ashamed by this mess because it is indeed much confusing topic over the many years in all electronic and electric power industries. Only fast speed digital schematics are certain that the digital bus must have only a single wire to eliminate ground loop races, but as it comes to analog and power supplies grounding - I've read those two mutually exclusive approaches.
    I personally tend to follow the same AI_The_Man approach... after all He is The Man



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    Member mactec54's Avatar
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Quote Originally Posted by habituralcnc View Post
    Hi,
    Thanks again for your time
    don't want to start any dispute, but are you guys saying the same thing or do you have different opinions?


    To: Al_The Man,
    yes if you can post the paper would be great thanks for the good Read!
    i'll keep reading but i still don't understand why bonding doesn't create ground loops
    and i'll keep banging my head against the wall untill it go's in, i guess

    To: mactec54
    just wondering if you own a dspmc controller because what you and everyone I've asked says is contradictory to the dspmc manual page 24 analog servo drive connection.pdf.
    Best Regards
    No I don't have a dspmc controller, Post #3 tells you what you have to follow, I have installed dozens of the DMM servo system with different controls

    And no if you correctly terminate Shields you do not get a Ground Loop, the whole Grounding system is already one big Ground loop, it's how you wire your system that you have to make sure that you don't create a Ground loop within your system

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Quote Originally Posted by eBirdman View Post
    Thank you AI_The_Man for mentioning explicitly about "two areas of thought" on this matter. Indeed I was confused many time over the years by contradictory recommendations when dealing with development of the analog circuits driven by sensors and also DC-DC converters. Some papers warn to not create ground loops races by multiple ground wires, while others recommend increase ground strength by multiple wiring... subject to many other variables in the system.
    @habituralcnc - you shouldn't feel ashamed by this mess because it is indeed much confusing topic over the many years in all electronic and electric power industries. Only fast speed digital schematics are certain that the digital bus must have only a single wire to eliminate ground loop races, but as it comes to analog and power supplies grounding - I've read those two mutually exclusive approaches.
    I personally tend to follow the same AI_The_Man approach... after all He is The Man
    It is no longer a recommended way to connect Power supply commons to Ground in this manner the electrical code enforcers will stop you in your tracks for doing it this way

    If you understand electrical theory then you would know that the power output from a power supply must return to the power supply if connected to Ground then it will travel all over the building trying to find home which it will eventually when it returns to the power supply, here is a good video on the subject, it's a long video but most should have plenty of time right now, stay safe in this trying time



    Mactec54


  14. #14
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Unfortunately I am not afforded the luxury of doing it any way you want as DIY'ers can.
    Being an industrial builder and retro fitter I have to conform to the rules.
    I suggest you obtain a copy of Eustace Soares Book on Grounding, this is published by the International Association of Electrical Inspectors, and the contents are used as a reference by NFPA79 and NFPA70 (NEC etc).
    There are many out there that find it hard to grasp the fundamentals behind grounding.
    .

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    Unfortunately I am not afforded the luxury of doing it any way you want as DIY'ers can.
    Being an industrial builder and retro fitter I have to conform to the rules.
    I suggest you obtain a copy of Eustace Soares Book on Grounding, this is published by the International Association of Electrical Inspectors, and the contents are used as a reference by NFPA79 and NFPA70 (NEC etc).
    There are many out there that find it hard to grasp the fundamentals behind grounding.
    .
    I have the books that you reference and many others, have used some parts for teaching but not all applies to the 2014 NEC regulation's

    The guys in this video teach write or change the code and explain it very well, which you must comply to industrial or Hobby should not make any difference the old mentally of how it was done has long been changed

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Thanks guys for a great source of information much appreciated.

    Been testing the +/- 10V analog output from the dspmc controller with an oscilloscope.
    The dspmc only seams to work properly if I connect the 24V dc power supply negative terminal to a bus bar for negative power return star gnd. that is also connected to power bus bar earth ground!

    check this thread for photos: https://www.machsupport.com/forum/in...topic=42793.10

    Stay safe
    Regards



  17. #17
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Quote Originally Posted by habituralcnc View Post
    Thanks guys for a great source of information much appreciated.

    Been testing the +/- 10V analog output from the dspmc controller with an oscilloscope.
    The dspmc only seams to work properly if I connect the 24V dc power supply negative terminal to a bus bar for negative power return star gnd. that is also connected to power bus bar earth ground!

    check this thread for photos: https://www.machsupport.com/forum/in...topic=42793.10

    Stay safe
    Regards
    You have found out some good information then as to how the dspmc needs to be wired, it's what I said in post # 3 without checking a system as to how it has been configured there is no why of knowing unless the manufacturer has it documented then there is nothing that you would have to check

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Here is another good article on Ground

    https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tec...ion-to-ground/

    Mactec54


  19. #19
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

    Quote Originally Posted by habituralcnc View Post
    Thanks guys for a great source of information much appreciated.
    Regards
    You have to be very cautious of Internet advice, including sites such as this
    The internet, Utube especially is fraught with videos portraying bad/wrong advice. So take it with a pinch of salt! .
    For myself having acquired academic qualifications in both Electrical and Industrial Electronics, I depend on updates from legit sources such as NFPA79, NFPA70, CEC and NEC.
    Al

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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dyn4 Analog servo grounding schematic with dspmc controler

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