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  1. #21
    Member peteeng's Avatar
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Hi Boyd - Don't weld the radius. If your stuck with the tubes then only weld the insides where its metal to metal. Fill the radius with car bog before you paint. Commercial frames are stress relieved then machined this fixes all the distortion issues. Are you near a heat treater? may save you some grief... A few mm short??? !!!! That's a disaster Peter



  2. #22
    Member routalot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    I read post #19 and can see why that table wouldn't need diagonal bracing! The uprights are so large that they effectively provide their own triangulation.



  3. #23
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Quote Originally Posted by boydage View Post
    Darn. Good point, all easy to draw in CAD now I look at it physically it's different. The radius I either carefully puddle weld with lots of cooling time. Or wait a couple weeks and buy some 100/50mm for the vertical members. I want to make it now! Ha

    I will lessen the gussets. Although not keen on trying for angled vertical members I won't be able to get them cut as accurately for tight length as perpendicular. One a few mm too short will pull the beam huh.

    I keep reminding myself the T Slot table is heavy too. Every time I have to move it haha.

    1000 frames per annum? What company is that? I spent my money strategically those 200/200mm beams are expensive huh.



    Sent from my SM-N970F using Tapatalk
    Thats the whole machine not just the frame, they are stress relieved blasted painted and machined

    Build these 5 Axis up to 30meters long as well, this standard one is 10 meters this other model is a moving table

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Input on this new frame-gdl-routers-2-png   Input on this new frame-10-meter-5-axes-jpg  
    Mactec54


  4. #24
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Ok noted and thanks. Interesting fact I asked an engineering company what cost I might be looking at to make this frame here in Nelson NZ. He said they would be able to work with a 5mm tolerance. I guess that's a +/- 2.5mm. I've cut to a mm.

    Heat treatment would not be cheap here infact I only know one company 100km away. My plan was to be strategic and weld strategically to avoid too much heat. I worked in a vehicle panel shop a lifetime ago.

    I am confident the frame I am building will be HEAPS better than the 6mm alloy sheet laminated onto timber one that's performed well.

    Also thinking where my manufacture skills are lacking, my finishing, shimming and squaring will make up for it.

    I can't find a steel retailer open until next week. Darn

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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    I take my hat off to trained fabricators and welders. Respect your trade but it's not for me. Trying to work out which way a weld will pull a member, or get a good clean strong weld, is not easy. I've found my MIG works best on higher than the settings on its sheet.

    The sides have been fabricated. And are now just clamped together. Each foot is threaded with 3 x m12 threads for feet, and I have put a 14mm hole in the centre for a dynabolt once I have leveled the frame. I will use these threaded holes for fabrication too bringing the sides up level then weld in the horizontal members along with cross bracing.

    Each vertical member was welded in short sections placed throughout the assembly so nothing got too hot, although one of the main longitudinal rails has moved or curved about 1.5mm on one end. Darn it.

    I have not yet seen any success stories with using fluid epoxy to fully level gantry rails??? I am expecting a maximum of 1.5mm perhaps 2mm at most. Possibly less, but was thinking about using a really fine automotive filler with shim stock to get them perfect?

    Anyways. I don't think I have ever posted pics of a build. Do speak up if you see something I may have missed I would like to think I am open book. B

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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    I haven't ever used an epoxy compound for rail mountings,but if I had to I would be looking at this one: https://ukmarineresins.co.uk/Product...ockfast-Orange . I know people who have used it for preparing bases for cranes to sit on and for the feet of quite large marine engines-800hp or so.It is actually made for the job and would be a better starting point than trying to create you own alternative from a randomly purchased resin.There may be a minimum practical thickness and it might be worth searching online for additional information.



  7. #27
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    On the page linked above, it indicates a thickness of 12-100mm. Is that thin enough to self level, or is it designed to get injected after the engines are installed to fill in all the voids while needing at least 12mm gap for injection?

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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Morning! I do remember working in a hospital where they prepared a base for a Fluro machine to 0.1mm apparently it was self leveled and injected through the concrete from the floor underneath...... although at maximum cost ha

    So I just did some calculations out of interest. My long straight builders level showed a level frame. Sitting my engineers level on top of that showed it not level. If I screw one of the M12 foot bolts, one flat ie 1/6th of a turn. My engineers level moves 3 divisions (approx, its very sensitive I didn't let it settle) Anyways. That equates to 1.75mm pitch / 6 = 0.291mm per flat turn if that all makes sense. Oh its a 0.0001" level be easier if it was metric but we work with what we have......

    I am going to level and square this frame up. Lock in some bracing. Weld. And see what I end up with. Once I fully measure it correctly I will report back. I only want to do this once but it's funny what we settle for on the day aye? "I will sort that one day but its fine for now....."

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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnZ View Post
    On the page linked above, it indicates a thickness of 12-100mm. Is that thin enough to self level, or is it designed to get injected after the engines are installed to fill in all the voids while needing at least 12mm gap for injection?

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    Since I was told about the epoxy by a couple of older fellows who have retired in the interim and gone off to who knows where,I can't ask them and I wouldn't want to speculate.My take is that the recommendations on the webpage are sure to work.If you want to run a few experiments to learn more it could be very useful knowledge.My take is that you would probably get a result whichever way you tackled the job,but I would expect a meniscus to form at the corners if not constrained and an enclosed form at the correct height might be a more certain bet.The bigger challenge might be to get both sides of the machine to the same version of level across the table.I do have reservations about using a machinist's level to extrapolate to level over a piece that may be twenty times the length of the level,although it is likely to be extremely accurate within the span of it's base.I have a feeling that the high end optical equipment used to establish building foundations could do better and it might be very useful to cultivate any contacts in the field.The worst machine I ever found was built by a concern which soon went out of business,rails that dipped by 2.5mm along their 2,500mm length didn't help,even though the ends were at the same height.



  10. #30
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Ok cool. What's a meniscus? Anyways. Correct. Personally I can see some filling and long block sanding followed by some very fine swimming. For me I will experiment and trial etc. I do have access to some building laser equipment, although have only seen the ones with a 2-3mm high cross line. I might try to lock the guys down who installed the fluro machine but that's out of town. See what they use.

    Until I find better, a very straight edge with a super precise level it will have to be. I'm confident. I'm DIY. Im also very good at fine tuning. Going from a timber frame to this is huge for me (yay!) Haha



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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Quote Originally Posted by boydage View Post
    Ok cool. What's a meniscus? Anyways. Correct. Personally I can see some filling and long block sanding followed by some very fine swimming. For me I will experiment and trial etc. I do have access to some building laser equipment, although have only seen the ones with a 2-3mm high cross line. I might try to lock the guys down who installed the fluro machine but that's out of town. See what they use.

    Until I find better, a very straight edge with a super precise level it will have to be. I'm confident. I'm DIY. Im also very good at fine tuning. Going from a timber frame to this is huge for me (yay!) Haha



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    Meniscus is cartilage in the Knee joint, painful if you tear it.

    Mactec54


  12. #32
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Oh. Also might be something to do with the little raised lip on the edge of a fluid plane?

    So how's this. I priced up steel end of June. 8000/152/76/5mm box section $401 plus tax. Purchase on December $537 plus tax with no mistakes just normal building supply price rises in NZ.


    ANYWAY....... I have cut everything. All gussets LH/RH, Longitudinal. Frame is tacked in a few places and strapped together. It's level to a couple of mm. Using a builders laser the spot is 3mm high.

    Big day of welding tomorrow. Awesome.

    Sent from my SM-N970F using Tapatalk



  13. #33
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Quote Originally Posted by boydage View Post
    Oh. Also might be something to do with the little raised lip on the edge of a fluid plane?

    So how's this. I priced up steel end of June. 8000/152/76/5mm box section $401 plus tax. Purchase on December $537 plus tax with no mistakes just normal building supply price rises in NZ.


    ANYWAY....... I have cut everything. All gussets LH/RH, Longitudinal. Frame is tacked in a few places and strapped together. It's level to a couple of mm. Using a builders laser the spot is 3mm high.

    Big day of welding tomorrow. Awesome.

    Sent from my SM-N970F using Tapatalk
    Price increases are everywhere not only on steel, it seems to be everything across the board.

    Use stretched piano wire to check your flatness, and anything else you need to check, this will be much better than any builder's laser or level will ever be.

    The meniscus could also apply to the epoxy shape also



    Last edited by mactec54; 01-05-2022 at 09:23 AM.
    Mactec54


  14. #34
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Quote Originally Posted by boydage View Post
    Oh. Also might be something to do with the little raised lip on the edge of a fluid plane?

    So how's this. I priced up steel end of June. 8000/152/76/5mm box section $401 plus tax. Purchase on December $537 plus tax with no mistakes just normal building supply price rises in NZ.


    ANYWAY....... I have cut everything. All gussets LH/RH, Longitudinal. Frame is tacked in a few places and strapped together. It's level to a couple of mm. Using a builders laser the spot is 3mm high.

    Big day of welding tomorrow. Awesome.

    Sent from my SM-N970F using Tapatalk
    Correct about the meniscus,some creep up the sides of the containing wall and some allow the centre of the poured liquid to rise above the confining surfaces.Pouring within a fully enclosed zone with risers,as in casting ,would probably eliminate the problem.



  15. #35
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Quote Originally Posted by routalot View Post
    Correct about the meniscus,some creep up the sides of the containing wall and some allow the centre of the poured liquid to rise above the confining surfaces.Pouring within a fully enclosed zone with risers,as in casting ,would probably eliminate the problem.
    This would only happen if the epoxy is not compatible with the dam material being used, with the epoxy being compatible with all most everything this would be an issue, and self-level as most epoxy's do, if thin enough.

    Using epoxy of any kind is not normally suitable to mount linear rails on, the amount / thickness used for leveling is too thin and compresses with the small surface area contact of rail, it is very soft compared to any metal that is normally required for rail mounting.

    The epoxy you posted about is normally used in place of grout and would have better vibration damping than regular grout would, so perfect for that application.

    Mactec54


  16. #36
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    I was wondering about the ballnut coupler brackets I have already installed. So the new design I want to keep the ribs I made. But I am going to install a 25mm side plate (purple in pic) on my gantry in behind the original works. Along with 2 x 100x75x8mm angle steel ribs.

    The Y is running on a double ballnut. With 16mm plates screwed in place from the top in the picture. How much attention do I need to pay to these ballnut plates? Currently I have 2 each side. Adequately braced? The screw is a 2510. Gee, am I going over the top thinking I need to brace my ballnut brackets more?

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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Yes, I would brace the plates where the ball nuts mount. A single plate connecting all three... both ballnut mounting plates, plus the top plates where the first two connect. Essentially, boxing in that area. This will also help a bit in keeping dust out of that area.

    In the current design, the ball nut mounting plates can flex putting strain on the ball nuts and screw.

    Hope this helps.

    John Z

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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Hi. Ok. Easy to do that. I will make a plate up to join them, a small addition will mean a lot.

    Ok. I am tired of welding. Amazed at how beautiful some of the welds look and came out, nice penetration, good spread. And about 5% of them look just absolutely ****e haha.

    Off with the wheels next. Each of the 8 feet have 3 x M12 threaded holes in them. I'm going to use M12 grub screws 3 per foot to level the frame out before I install a dynabolt to the floor.

    The front 3 crossmembers, I am going to put 3 x 100/16 mild steel bars down longitudinally for the 100x900x1100 cast T Slot table to fix down too.

    When the frame is level, I am going to pour a 4L kit of West 105 with 209 hardener. This will go on the side rails, and I want also for the front three horizontal rails to be included they can be my epoxy bridges.

    I am thinking I want to pour the epoxy, with the weight of the T Slot table on the area it will sit. I can sit it on pads so the epoxy will still run past replacing the pads with the 100/16mm bar once hard. I guess the table is 680kg so better run the epoxy with it on????? Yes?? Surely it will have some impact although the frame is 5mm thick 150/76mm steel.

    Pic attached. I'm quite happy with progress. Always keen to hear advice either critical or helpful.

    Oh and my mate (professional) said mix the epoxy in a large bucket with a large flat paddle. Large so the heat escapes allowing bubbles to not form. He said if the container is too small it will get too hot and bubble. So minimum 10L bucket. He said a word I can't remember.

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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Braced front side and back.

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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Input on this new frame

    Hi Boyadage - What thickness are you going to pour the 105/209 ? Exotherm comes to mind... add a little pigment to the mix so you know when its mixed. Can be some paint if you have it just a few drops to tint. Peter



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