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  1. #121
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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sray View Post
    For the Mesa board:
    I have read it can be powered using both 24v and/or 5v. Do I just need one 24V PS? Will this run everything that board can run or will I require multiple PS's?
    I also read "There is also the option of using separate field and FPGA logic power if you want isolation between the FPGA section and the field I/O section". More lingo I need to wrap my head around. LOL.
    Questions:
    1. Will one PS run both?
    2. Do I need to isolate the power between the two?

    Thanks ALL!
    I prefer to have seperate 5v & 24v but you can do this image below with a single 24v.
    If daughter cards are going to be used on the IDC26 expansion headers then I'd use seperate ones.



    Search 'Mesa 7i76e' in google images and loads of stuff comes up:









    NPN 3 pin inductive switches:
    https://www.rainydayprojects.ch/user.../Mesa7i76e.svg
    NOTE... looks to be wired to analog in. Should be wired to digital in.
    You get the jist though.










    Last edited by dazp1976; 12-06-2021 at 08:01 PM.


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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    My first machine I used separate 5 v I but won't do it again.
    The other advantage is it gives you 100% isolation between 5v logic and 24v field power sections but if you want to use a MPG, you have to common the 5v and 24v grounds so there is no point as it breaks the isolation.
    So you are just left with extra cards possibly needing the extra power

    Rod Webster
    www.vmn.com.au


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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by rodw View Post
    Its generally accepted that the total motor amperage can be about 140% of the power supply amperage so you only need about 16 amps. I think I first read that on the Gecko site.

    Its not well understood that the motors only need 100% power when working at capacity. That does not happen often and rarely with all motors working together.
    On my Plasma table I have no cutting forces so the drives are only working on acceleration. So I cut the amps by 50% when they are at a constant velocity when required power is < 15% of the maximum (motor dependent).. I've been meaning to try 30%.of full amps. This lets them cool so I can work them harder when needed. Not many drives support this.
    Interesting. Maybe I will step the PS down a little then. Thanks



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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    I prefer to have seperate 5v & 24v but you can do this image below with a single 24v.
    If daughter cards are going to be used on the IDC26 expansion headers then I'd use seperate ones.
    I will keep this in mind as I need to add other boards.

    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    Search 'Mesa 7i76e' in google images and loads of stuff comes up.
    Thanks for all the diagrams. I also downloaded some myself. I will have to dissect them as I start to put things together.


    Thanks



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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by rodw View Post
    My first machine I used separate 5 v I but won't do it again.
    The other advantage is it gives you 100% isolation between 5v logic and 24v field power sections but if you want to use a MPG, you have to common the 5v and 24v grounds so there is no point as it breaks the isolation.
    So you are just left with extra cards possibly needing the extra power
    I have read others that say they would not do them separate again.

    Thanks



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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by rodw View Post
    Its generally accepted that the total motor amperage can be about 140% of the power supply amperage so you only need about 16 amps. I think I first read that on the Gecko site.

    Its not well understood that the motors only need 100% power when working at capacity. That does not happen often and rarely with all motors working together.
    On my Plasma table I have no cutting forces so the drives are only working on acceleration. So I cut the amps by 50% when they are at a constant velocity when required power is < 15% of the maximum (motor dependent).. I've been meaning to try 30%.of full amps. This lets them cool so I can work them harder when needed. Not many drives support this.
    Would it be better or more advantageous to go with a 72V/20A or a 80V/18A PS? I believe the max voltage for the drivers is 80V.



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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sray View Post
    Would it be better or more advantageous to go with a 72V/20A or a 80V/18A PS? I believe the max voltage for the drivers is 80V.
    If going with the max 80v drivers I'd go no more than 72v supply.
    (I prefer 60v with them for added caution but 72v fine).

    If going with the max 110v drivers I'd go up to 90v supply.


    I've only tested my nema 24 (with 3mh inductance) on 60v up to 700rpm so far. Not a peep from them. That's 3500mm/min on 5mm screw pitch directly driven on a mill with tapered gibs.



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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    I agree 72 volts is a safe upper limit.

    Rod Webster
    www.vmn.com.au


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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    All my main components are ordered! Now it is the waiting game.

    I ended up going with a 1200W 60V 20A PS for the steppers and the Mean Well MDR-60-24 for the Mesa board.

    Things I still need to purchase:
    1. New couplers (6.35mm to 10mm) since the steppers I bought are the 6.35mm shaft. Grrrr. Is there a preferred type? Flexible or Rigid?
    2. Cables/wiring
    3. End stop sensors


    Any suggestions for the above items?
    Am I missing anything?

    Thanks everyone for all your assistance so far! Much appreciated.

    Last edited by Sray; 12-07-2021 at 01:52 PM.


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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Been researching flexible vs rigid couplings and this is what I read:

    [quote]
    Rigid couplings provide several advantages over their flexible alternatives that make them the preferred choice for many projects. Some of their key advantages include:
    1. Excellent torque transmission: Rigid couplings can efficiently transfer torque from one shaft to the other connected shaft.
    2. Low cost of production: Manufacturers can produce standard and custom rigid couplings at cost-effective rates.
    3. Precision, with nearly zero windup and zero backlash
    4. Torsional stiffness: High torsional stiffness allows for better positioning.
    5. Simplicity: Flexible couplings often have more components and/or are more complex. This can make operation and maintenance more complicated. Rigid couplings are more simple and straightforward in comparison.
    6. Alignment capabilities: Rigid couplings can be used to establish shaft alignment between the motor and connected components.
    7. Easy assembly, disassembly, and maintenance operations throughout the life of the coupling
    8. Rigid couplings work best for high-torque requirements, shaft support applications, and push-pull use cases.


    Looks like one of the only downside that I have found so far for the rigid is that they do not absorb vibration as good as the flexible couplings. So there is more maintenance needed and things can wear quicker due to the vibration.

    What do you guys use?



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    [QUOTE=Sray;2484692]Been researching flexible vs rigid couplings and this is what I read:

    Rigid couplings provide several advantages over their flexible alternatives that make them the preferred choice for many projects. Some of their key advantages include:
    1. Excellent torque transmission: Rigid couplings can efficiently transfer torque from one shaft to the other connected shaft.
    2. Low cost of production: Manufacturers can produce standard and custom rigid couplings at cost-effective rates.
    3. Precision, with nearly zero windup and zero backlash
    4. Torsional stiffness: High torsional stiffness allows for better positioning.
    5. Simplicity: Flexible couplings often have more components and/or are more complex. This can make operation and maintenance more complicated. Rigid couplings are more simple and straightforward in comparison.
    6. Alignment capabilities: Rigid couplings can be used to establish shaft alignment between the motor and connected components.
    7. Easy assembly, disassembly, and maintenance operations throughout the life of the coupling
    8. Rigid couplings work best for high-torque requirements, shaft support applications, and push-pull use cases.


    Looks like one of the only downside that I have found so far for the rigid is that they do not absorb vibration as good as the flexible couplings. So there is more maintenance needed and things can wear quicker due to the vibration.

    What do you guys use?
    I'm using those plum type ones with the red inserts. Clamp type not grub screw type. Work well for me.
    I think the disc insert ones are good. Forget what they're called.



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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    I've got some of these on order https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3289...b01b4c4dVcvgL4

    I won't use the Plum style ones with plastic inserts again because I just found the plastic spider was missing from my Plasma Z axis!
    And to think I paid $70 AUD for a quality one!

    Rod Webster
    www.vmn.com.au


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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Hi,
    for my mini-mill I used the small aluminum barrels with a spiral slot cut into them, they were cheap, I think I got 1/2 dozen for $12.00 including postage.
    I found they had a small amount of radial flex which is not so good. It increased the perceived backlash by 4um, but what I also found was that if you crashed
    the stall torque would shear them off like a carrot, like a 'fuse' rather than break anything else. I liked having a mechanical fuse. I managed to shear three off in seven years.

    For my new build mill I bought double disc couplers between the ballscrew (20mm) and the servo shaft (19mm). They are great, but there will be no shearing these off!
    For three I paid $60 including postage from China, no sweat. The quality was all that I could ask for.

    Not these exact ones, but very similar:
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000...bcac44a1725455

    Craig



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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by rodw View Post
    I've got some of these on order https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3289...b01b4c4dVcvgL4

    I won't use the Plum style ones with plastic inserts again because I just found the plastic spider was missing from my Plasma Z axis!
    I always wondered about the plum ones. The ones you have on order look nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    for my mini-mill I used the small aluminum barrels with a spiral slot cut into them, they were cheap, I think I got 1/2 dozen for $12.00 including postage.
    I found they had a small amount of radial flex which is not so good. It increased the perceived backlash by 4um, but what I also found was that if you crashed
    the stall torque would shear them off like a carrot, like a 'fuse' rather than break anything else. I liked having a mechanical fuse. I managed to shear three off in seven years.

    For my new build mill I bought double disc couplers between the ballscrew (20mm) and the servo shaft (19mm). They are great, but there will be no shearing these off!
    For three I paid $60 including postage from China, no sweat. The quality was all that I could ask for.
    How much flex do the disc couplers have?

    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    I'm using those plum type ones with the red inserts. Clamp type not grub screw type. Work well for me.
    I think the disc insert ones are good. Forget what they're called.
    I am looking into the disc ones as well as the rigid.

    Thanks for your comments.



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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Hi,
    How much flex do the disc couplers have?
    Not a lot, or rather it takes some force to deflect them from straight. Given that the size of my ballscrew and servo shafts are substantial that's fine.
    With your much smaller steppers and ballscrews you'll want flex but at lower force levels, I should imagine the smaller size couplings would do just that. You want
    double discs as they provide for axial mis-alignment in two planes, rather than single disc.

    The bellows types are good but if there is substantial mis-alignment the repeated flexing causes them to break eventually. I suppose the double disc types could break eventually,
    I've been using them for several months....no problems thus far.

    Despite the minor torsional flexure the spiral cut ones are perfectly good as well, and cheap as chips.

    Craig



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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,


    Not a lot, or rather it takes some force to deflect them from straight. Given that the size of my ballscrew and servo shafts are substantial that's fine.
    With your much smaller steppers and ballscrews you'll want flex but at lower force levels, I should imagine the smaller size couplings would do just that. You want
    double discs as they provide for axial mis-alignment in two planes, rather than single disc.

    The bellows types are good but if there is substantial mis-alignment the repeated flexing causes them to break eventually. I suppose the double disc types could break eventually,
    I've been using them for several months....no problems thus far.

    Despite the minor torsional flexure the spiral cut ones are perfectly good as well, and cheap as chips.

    Craig
    Good info. Maybe I will start with buying a handful of the spiral ones so I have some extras on hand in case they break. Thanks



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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sray View Post
    I was wondering about that. I think I have seen mounts that are for 23/24s.



    I know servos are the way to go but unfortunately they are no longer in my price range. I guess I was hoping that the hybrid closed loop setups were a step up and offered some added protections/features. So all the hype is just marketing rhetoric?



    I will look into these but it sounds like they are not in my budget.

    Thanks
    Nema 24 do not fit nema 23 mounts. I used NSK linear actuators for my first build and they came with Nema 24 Yaskawa AC servos.

    It was really annoying because I couldn't simply drill new holes for the Nema 23 motors because they were too close to the nema 24 holes.

    It's one of the reasons I switched to the 465 oz in nema 34 3.5amp motors.

    I'm glad I went with the 34's though because they have a 1/2" shaft which is considerably more robust and easier to mount (as they're longer) than the 1/4" shaft on my 23's.

    A twig-thin shaft is definitely a source of weakness in the drive. If you go with 23's, I'd suggest going with the 3/8" shaft versions as a minimum.



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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Hi,

    'The good thing about standards is....there is so many to choose from'

    Craig



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    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    Nema 24 do not fit nema 23 mounts. I used NSK linear actuators for my first build and they came with Nema 24 Yaskawa AC servos.

    It was really annoying because I couldn't simply drill new holes for the Nema 23 motors because they were too close to the nema 24 holes.

    It's one of the reasons I switched to the 465 oz in nema 34 3.5amp motors.

    I'm glad I went with the 34's though because they have a 1/2" shaft which is considerably more robust and easier to mount (as they're longer) than the 1/4" shaft on my 23's.

    A twig-thin shaft is definitely a source of weakness in the drive. If you go with 23's, I'd suggest going with the 3/8" shaft versions as a minimum.

    They fitted on mine.
    I've got 566oz/in.
    I did start off with 34's initially but they kept over travelling because of their inertia.



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    Default Re: Controller Advice Needed

    Hi,
    whether we like it or not the largest share (75% plus) of CNC components are metric.
    Japan=metric
    Europe=metric
    China=metric.......and the Chinese do the manufacturing for so many companies from all over the world, so even if the 'company' is US say, the actual product is made in China often to metric standards.

    If you restrict yourself to those manufacturers that stick strictly to NEMA sizes, well the good news is that there are plenty of them, US made in the main. The bad news is that they tend
    to be over-priced, and more often than not under-perform.

    If want the widest range of products from the widest range of manufacturers to secure the best price/performance trade-off then metric is the best choice.

    Craig



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