Spindle power choice


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  1. #1
    Member xtalxtal's Avatar
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    Default Spindle power choice

    I am in process to build full size CNC router, to be able to cut 1200 x 2400 mm plywood. Mostly it would be cut medium hardwood for doors with vbit and pocketing toolpath strategy up to 10mm depth. And sometimes it should be carve 3d (nights job) using ball nose.

    How do you think about Chinese spindle:
    1. Air cooled or water cooled?
    2. 2.2 kW or 3.2 kW

    Any thoughts will be appreciated.

    Cliff

    Sent from my SM-A507FN using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    You can cut wood with any cnc spindle or router. It's just a question of how fast you need it to be.

    A more powerful spindle may enable deeper cuts with larger tools. If you need to do 10mm depth cuts in one pass you'll need more power than if you do five 2mm cuts.

    Just saying 2.2kw or 3.2kw on it's own doesn't tell you how powerful a spindle is. You need to know the speed where it hits peak power.

    A 2.2kw spindle that hits peak power at 12,000rpm had twice the torque of a 2.2kw one that hits it at 24,000rpm. The 12,000rpm would be twice the size too.

    Download the free trial of Gwizard to get an idea of how much power and torque is needed for each cut.

    For air vs water cooled. The water cooled will be quieter and have better cooling at low speed. But, you'll need extra kit.

    I'd go with water cooled as I can't stand loud fans. The Chinese shaft fan spindles are super loud.



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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Hi,
    the more power you have the more flexibly you can use the mill, until you run into the rigidity limit where the machine flexes because of the cutting forces
    anyway.

    What sort of power supply do you have?. Most domestic supplies are pretty much tapped out at 2.2kW and can draw as much as 20A. If you have, or are prepared to
    have an electrician install a beefier circuit and circuit breaker, say 32A, then 3kW -3.5kW maybe in order. VFD's are notorious for drawing very high peak currents and can
    stress electrical circuits.

    Craig

    Craig



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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    You can go a good bit larger than 2.2kw on domestic power.

    I run a 5.6kw / 7.5hp spindle from a regular 50a 240v outlet in my garage. My oven is on a 60a one.

    You can install a 100a+ outlet in a home. Some have them in my neighborhood for charging electric cars.

    More power isn't always useful though. Sometimes it's better to match the spindle / power curve for the application.



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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    You can go a good bit larger than 2.2kw on domestic power.
    I run a 5.6kw / 7.5hp spindle from a regular 50a 240v outlet in my garage. My oven is on a 60a one.
    You can install a 100a+ outlet in a home. Some have them in my neighborhood for charging electric cars.
    More power isn't always useful though. Sometimes it's better to match the spindle / power curve for the application.
    I guess servos are a bit different then.
    Our AC service only has a 80A main fuse.
    Servo (for mill) is on a 50A breaker (1.8kw servo). It's peak power draw is 52A according to spec.



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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Hi,
    I run a 5.6kw / 7.5hp spindle from a regular 50a 240v outlet in my garage. My oven is on a 60a one.
    Are you saying that 50A is a normal domestic circuit?

    Here a 'normal' single phase three pin socket is 15A. You are required to have a larger cable, breaker and socket if you want 20A or more.

    Craig



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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,


    Are you saying that 50A is a normal domestic circuit?

    Here a 'normal' single phase three pin socket is 15A. You are required to have a larger cable, breaker and socket if you want 20A or more.

    Craig
    He's talking about a 240 VAC circuit in his garage, most likely wired as a 50 amp circuit. I've got 2 - 240 VAC 100 amp input CB's in my box in the shop, with a number of 240 VAC circuits running anywhere from 30 to 50 amps running off them.

    Mark



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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,


    Are you saying that 50A is a normal domestic circuit?

    Here a 'normal' single phase three pin socket is 15A. You are required to have a larger cable, breaker and socket if you want 20A or more.

    Craig
    Yes that can be normal for some to have a 240v 50A circuit in the USA, the normal 3 pin outlets though are 120v 15A /20 Amp, the domestic supply on the average new home is 240v 200A I have a 400A single phase supply at my home, and can have more if I want / need it.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Quote Originally Posted by xtalxtal View Post
    I am in process to build full size CNC router, to be able to cut 1200 x 2400 mm plywood. Mostly it would be cut medium hardwood for doors with vbit and pocketing toolpath strategy up to 10mm depth. And sometimes it should be carve 3d (nights job) using ball nose.

    How do you think about Chinese spindle:
    1. Air cooled or water cooled?
    2. 2.2 kW or 3.2 kW

    Any thoughts will be appreciated.

    Cliff

    Sent from my SM-A507FN using Tapatalk
    If you have a good power supply, then look at the larger spindle 3.2Kw if the spindle is say 12A then you will want a 30A supply to the VFD Drive

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Hi,
    in New Zealand its very common to have a 63A or 85A connection to the property. In years past a 100A was common but not so now.

    Single phase plug circuits for domestic appliances are 15A, or rather the breaker is C curve 16A. If you have a larger demand then a 20A socket is used,
    its a rather heavier duty arrangement with three circular pins and a hinged flap that covers the socket when not in use.

    The next step up is 32A. There are two common socket types, one looks like a regular three pin appliance socket but the pins are heavier. This style of plug is used
    to connect a domestic oven to its supply. Usually a 6mm2 cable diameter with a C curve 32A breaker. The other style is an industrial socket, like an enlarged
    20A socket with bigger pins. This is used for welders and other high demand equipment. Usually fitted with a D curve breaker.

    Next step up again is 50A, 10mm2 or 16mm2 cable and a D curve breaker. We are about to shift our business premises and this is the style of
    supply I am going to use for my new mill.

    Next step is 63A, uncommon in New Zealand, but increasingly used for charging electric vehicles.

    Craig



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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    in New Zealand its very common to have a 63A or 85A connection to the property. In years past a 100A was common but not so now.

    Single phase plug circuits for domestic appliances are 15A, or rather the breaker is C curve 16A. If you have a larger demand then a 20A socket is used,
    its a rather heavier duty arrangement with three circular pins and a hinged flap that covers the socket when not in use.

    The next step up is 32A. There are two common socket types, one looks like a regular three pin appliance socket but the pins are heavier. This style of plug is used
    to connect a domestic oven to its supply. Usually a 6mm2 cable diameter with a C curve 32A breaker. The other style is an industrial socket, like an enlarged
    20A socket with bigger pins. This is used for welders and other high demand equipment. Usually fitted with a D curve breaker.

    Next step up again is 50A, 10mm2 or 16mm2 cable and a D curve breaker. We are about to shift our business premises and this is the style of
    supply I am going to use for my new mill.

    Next step is 63A, uncommon in New Zealand, but increasingly used for charging electric vehicles.

    Craig
    Do they still have Reyrolle locking Plugs and sockets, or similar in NZ for these higher Amp plugs and sockets.

    In the US we use these self locking Plugs and sockets, these are good up to 30A 3 and 4 pin, there are others that have higher Amp rating, this should be the norm that most should be using in NA

    It gets to a point when high Amp Plugs become unreliable and the machines should be wired direct to the Breaker and have a disconnect

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spindle power choice-30-amp-locking-plug-png   Spindle power choice-30-amp-locking-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Hi,
    the old style Reyrolle plugs are not illegal in New Zealand ....yet, but it is illegal to fit them as new, and that's not an issue as they have not been manufactured for twenty plus
    years. You can still find them in farmers workshops and other out-of-the-way places but now increasingly rare.

    The current style is based on an IEC design standard, and its this style installed throughout the commercial and industrial sectors, see the attached pics as examples.
    They are not common in domestic situations and many domestic plug/socket combinations are 10A or in some cases 15A. Only time a 32A socket is used is for connecting
    a domestic oven.

    The upshot is that if you want a larger single phase connection than the 10/15A standard for CNC for instance, then you will require an electrician fit a dedicated circuit.
    As an example, when I rewired my house, I had a new 6mm2 cable fitted for my domestic oven, but I also had had a loop such that I could fit a 32A socket
    'out-back'. The circuit is protected by a 32A C curve breaker. In reality I can use the CNC mill OR I can use the oven, using both at once is likely to cause a breaker trip.
    Additionally all new domestic electrical work in New Zealand must be covered by RCD protection. A domestic oven supply is exempted because the intention is that no-one
    would ever use the oven socket for anything else than an oven. Little do they know that I have a general purpose socket as part of that same oven circuit and thus its not
    protected by an RCD either. When I get my larger spindle (3kW) up and running I will have to change the breaker to D curve.

    I am still giving considerable thought to the proposition of building-in an electronic power factor correction circuit into my spindle servo drive OR whether I use a largish
    single phase line reactor. Even with a 32A circuit a spindle drive WITHOUT some power factor correction would still stress my supply. I use smaller line reactors on
    my other VFD and spindle servo drive and they have proven to be great at improving power factor but especially reducing the electrical 'hash' that propagates throughout
    the rest of my machine and household.

    Craig

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spindle power choice-pdl_plugs-png   Spindle power choice-pdl_sockets-png  


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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    the old style Reyrolle plugs are not illegal in New Zealand ....yet, but it is illegal to fit them as new, and that's not an issue as they have not been manufactured for twenty plus
    years. You can still find them in farmers workshops and other out-of-the-way places but now increasingly rare.

    The current style is based on an IEC design standard, and its this style installed throughout the commercial and industrial sectors, see the attached pics as examples.
    They are not common in domestic situations and many domestic plug/socket combinations are 10A or in some cases 15A. Only time a 32A socket is used is for connecting
    a domestic oven.

    The upshot is that if you want a larger single phase connection than the 10/15A standard for CNC for instance, then you will require an electrician fit a dedicated circuit.
    As an example, when I rewired my house, I had a new 6mm2 cable fitted for my domestic oven, but I also had had a loop such that I could fit a 32A socket
    'out-back'. The circuit is protected by a 32A C curve breaker. In reality I can use the CNC mill OR I can use the oven, using both at once is likely to cause a breaker trip.
    Additionally all new domestic electrical work in New Zealand must be covered by RCD protection. A domestic oven supply is exempted because the intention is that no-one
    would ever use the oven socket for anything else than an oven. Little do they know that I have a general purpose socket as part of that same oven circuit and thus its not
    protected by an RCD either. When I get my larger spindle (3kW) up and running I will have to change the breaker to D curve.

    I am still giving considerable thought to the proposition of building-in an electronic power factor correction circuit into my spindle servo drive OR whether I use a largish
    single phase line reactor. Even with a 32A circuit a spindle drive WITHOUT some power factor correction would still stress my supply. I use smaller line reactors on
    my other VFD and spindle servo drive and they have proven to be great at improving power factor but especially reducing the electrical 'hash' that propagates throughout
    the rest of my machine and household.

    Craig
    That is much the same as here, if they are doing everything to code, protection is required here also, so not much that is different, there are similar Plug to you photo's here as well

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    The only limitation (besides any local laws) to the size of the circuit is the size of the main breaker box and the availability of compatible breakers for it.

    The main box in my house is 250a. It was 200a in my old house. They are usually sized for the home as larger houses sometimes need more power. You can get 400a or 600a if you need it.

    Assuming you have capacity in your main box, adding new outlets is easy and (should be) inexpensive. I did it myself in my old place. It cost me $200 for an electrician to add two 50a outlets in my current house.

    Anything up to 240v 60a is "normal" in America and the UK. I don't know about other countries.

    By "normal" I mean common, inexpensive and easily available receptacles exist. The 100a+ single phase receptacles I've seen are the industrial kind which cost hundreds instead of tens of dollars.

    The part that matters when sizing a single phase circuit for 3ph spindles is how much the VFD will draw, not how many 3 phase amps go to the spindle.

    E.g. My 5.6kw spindle needs 20a 3ph but the VFD draws closer to 34a single phase 240v so a 20a vfd would be too small.



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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    The part that matters when sizing a single phase circuit for 3ph spindles is how much the VFD will draw, not how many 3 phase amps go to the spindle.

    E.g. My 5.6kw spindle needs 20a 3ph but the VFD draws closer to 34a single phase 240v so a 20a vfd would be too small.
    Correct, but the power supply and cable / wiring needs to be rated for 150% more for it to be to code.

    A simple calculation is 20 x 1.73= 34.6 x 150%=51.9 A Breaker and wiring to suit is needed, so you may get away with a 50A circuit for it to pass Code.

    1.73 is the only number you need to know, for what the input Amps will be for Single Phase to 3 Phase use, like for a VFD Drives Etc.

    Anything over 30A / 50A in the work shop should be hard wired, receptacles become unreliable after that for machine use.

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    What makes larger (than 50a) receptacles unreliable? I haven't heard that before.

    If I paid close to $400 for a 100a one like this and it didn't work, I ask for a refund:

    https://www.platt.com/platt-electric...x?zpid=0249984



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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Hi,
    I worked for a number of years servicing and repairing welding equipment.

    Old style, large TIG welders are single phase, or rather two phases of a three phase supply, so 400VAC single phase. They would often draw 80A-100A,
    they had such poor lagging power factor. It was a common occurrence for even the smallest amount of contact resistance in the plug/socket combination
    to cause one or both to melt.

    As a consequence a number of our customers had their machines permanently wired to the isolator. Inconvenient if you want to shift a machine but overall
    more reliable, and most of these machines work hard with high use rates, reliability is absolutely required.

    Craig



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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    What makes larger (than 50a) receptacles unreliable? I haven't heard that before.

    If I paid close to $400 for a 100a one like this and it didn't work, I ask for a refund:

    https://www.platt.com/platt-electric...x?zpid=0249984
    Only someone with no electrical knowledge would buy such a plug and socket, they last for a while, once the pins become loose in the sockets then they over heat and burn up, this can even burn your building down, electrical code also would not allow the use of these high amp plugs in some areas

    100 Amps you are looking at a minimum of #2 Gauge copper wire or #1 for aluminum wire, in being practical about this, you would not be able to move the cable around, very well or bend it in any way, 3 or 4 wires of #2 or #1 Gauge wire is very rigid


    ( 119A ) Copper #1 gauge wire is .289" or 7.3mm diameter x 3 = a large cable.

    ( 95A ) Copper #2 gauge wire is .257" or 6.5 mm diameter x 3 = a large cable.

    So you can see why a Plug for100A supply is not very practical to use.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spindle power choice-wire-amps-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    I see what you mean. I don't see how it's different with a direct connect (to the breaker box) with a shut off switch though.

    You'd have all the same issues with wire thickness and risks with contacts coming loose over time. I have one of those high voltage / high amp shut off switches (to avoid constantly unplugging the VFD). Inside they aren't a whole lot different to a plug + receptacle.

    They are more convenient with less friction on the contacts though. And less expensive. I can see why they'd be preferable.

    I'm familiar with the issue of wire flexibility even with my spindle. The shielded 12g cable is so thick it barely fits through the m20x1.5 cable gland.

    The "flexible" servo cable is so inflexible that it was pulling itself out of the screw terminals in my spindle until I clamped it down.

    The 8g cable that goes from the outlet to the VFD is less of an issue as it doesn't need to be flexible.

    At one point I wanted to mount the VFD to the back of the Z axis so it moved with the spindle. I wasn't sure if it would get destroyed by vibration though.



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    Default Re: Spindle power choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    I see what you mean. I don't see how it's different with a direct connect (to the breaker box) with a shut off switch though.

    You'd have all the same issues with wire thickness and risks with contacts coming loose over time. I have one of those high voltage / high amp shut off switches (to avoid constantly unplugging the VFD). Inside they aren't a whole lot different to a plug + receptacle.

    They are more convenient with less friction on the contacts though. And less expensive. I can see why they'd be preferable.

    I'm familiar with the issue of wire flexibility even with my spindle. The shielded 12g cable is so thick it barely fits through the m20x1.5 cable gland.

    The "flexible" servo cable is so inflexible that it was pulling itself out of the screw terminals in my spindle until I clamped it down.

    The 8g cable that goes from the outlet to the VFD is less of an issue as it doesn't need to be flexible.

    At one point I wanted to mount the VFD to the back of the Z axis so it moved with the spindle. I wasn't sure if it would get destroyed by vibration though.
    That's what you get when you buy poor quality cable, a 12G IGUS cable designed for this application, is only .510" or 13mm Diameter, cables that don't flex won't last very long for a Z axis

    Mactec54


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