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  1. #121

    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    I think I made some mistakes in loading the balls in the screw. The screw is gripping which is causing wobble. witch hunt continues.

    -Rupesh


  2. #122
    Member peteeng's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Hi Rupesh - usually done with V blocks in a press. Do you have a garage press? Maybe you can hold it in a vice and gently bend, practice by straightening paper clips Peter



  3. #123
    Member peteeng's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Stark View Post
    Hi Pipik, Thank you for the advice. the web was suppose to counter any twisting moment acting on the columns. No doubt weight is important to absorb the vibration and having a heavy machine adds to the rigidity. That is why lathe bases are made of CI which is good in absorbing vibrations.

    Please share your drawing. That will definitely help.

    I can't download or see the attachment.
    Hi All - Sorry to bat on about this but 1) Weight does not absorb vibration, internal material friction converts movement to heat. Internal material hysteresis and friction is not related to weight or mass 2) Weight and mass is not related to stiffness or rigidity. Geometry is the driving factor (second moment of inertia) then couple that with material stiffness (youngs modulus). 3) Machines are made from cast iron because a) cast iron is easy to cast (primary reason) and has useful secondary properties b) CI is not much damper then steel or aluminium. Large cast parts are damp because they are not thin and are rounded and tapered (draft for casting). Many of the leading machine builders are moving towards mineral casting because it is very significantly damper then cast iron. Composites do not need to be aged to be stable (CI has many internal metallurgical process occurring over time that changes its shape) and has many useful properties like its cast shrinkage is negligible vs CI is about 5% linear .... cheers Peter

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxy_granite

    attached article quotes figures for steel damping vs CI and they are the same...

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by peteeng; 10-09-2020 at 02:16 AM.


  4. #124

    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi Rupesh - usually done with V blocks in a press. Do you have a garage press? Maybe you can hold it in a vice and gently bend, practice by straightening paper clips Peter
    Unfortunately I don't have these. sometime back I had planned to make a press using bottle jack to fit bearings and similar application. The project didn't start but i do have 5 ton press lying around.

    The shaft is the culprit and is now confirmed. I dis-assembled the nut in the morning and loaded them back carefully. This nut was not the one which I re-loaded before. I could see slight improvement but the wobble is there. The shaft is bent.

    Now I need to figure out if I can fix it myself or I have to seek professional help.

    Meanwhile I am learning the MACH3 UI and how to set things up. I also enquired about MDF, its available just 200meter from my residence but they are selling in 8X4 foot size only.

    -Rupesh


  5. #125

    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    1) Weight does not absorb vibration, internal material friction converts movement to heat. Internal material hysteresis and friction is not related to weight or mass 2) Weight and mass is not related to stiffness or rigidity.
    Damn!!! I was having misconception then.

    -Rupesh


  6. #126
    Member peteeng's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Hi Rupesh - and if you straighten a paper clip you will notice it gets warm. This is the internal friction between the metal grains (just like rubbing your hands together) resulting in heat. Peter



  7. #127
    Member mactec54's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Stark View Post
    Unfortunately I don't have these. sometime back I had planned to make a press using bottle jack to fit bearings and similar application. The project didn't start but i do have 5 ton press lying around.

    The shaft is the culprit and is now confirmed. I dis-assembled the nut in the morning and loaded them back carefully. This nut was not the one which I re-loaded before. I could see slight improvement but the wobble is there. The shaft is bent.

    Now I need to figure out if I can fix it myself or I have to seek professional help.

    Meanwhile I am learning the MACH3 UI and how to set things up. I also enquired about MDF, its available just 200meter from my residence but they are selling in 8X4 foot size only.
    You may be able to mount the Ballscrew in you lathe to straighten it, you will need to protect the screw in the chuck from any damage

    When screws are bent when you get them, the seller sometimes will replace them as this is a common problem with cheap Ballscrews

    Mactec54


  8. #128

    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Hi Mactec54,

    You mean, to mount in lathe between center and then use jack underneath to remove the bent? is that safe?

    I have been experiencing few things while I am learning the mach3 and the router itself.

    1. If the power supply is gone, mach3 keeps running on laptop. It doesn't detect motors not moving as power is gone. I have to stop it by using stop button. Once power come back it takes the last cutting position as zero and start all together ruining things.

    2. My Y axis has one slave. sometimes I see the master motor moves such that the slave couldn't follow resulting in bent in the X axis. It happened when I jack up the velocity and acceleration I think. I did it today and it went too far before I could stop it. Some bolt came loose. re-aligned and tightened all. Current setting is 150 step per, 2500vel, 200 acceleration. All in mm unit. Given 2005 ball screw and nema23 (3.1n-m) shouldn't it be higher then this ?

    3. I have asked the seller for replacement of that ballscrew. I has shipped one. I will machine that and check if the problem persists. Really disheartened to see it move life stuck-free-stuck-free kind off. Hiccups move.

    4. Got MDF 6mm and added 4 layer of it to make the wasteboard. Trammed the router (still not fully trammed). and flattened the bed. As It is my first experience with router, doing mistakes more often. Learning !!!.

    5 MDF is really dusty. So fine particles. I have ordered one powerful Vacuum cleaner for it.

    6. Got some ball nose bit, 2 flute. My router takes only 6mm and 8 mm shank bit. even 6.3 won't fit in the collet. I am searching for adapter but not able to find one. may be I will machine one on lathe. I don't know how accurate that would be.

    -Rupesh


  9. #129

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    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    A question here, does CNC 1310 engraving can apply on Aluminum nameplate? What is the minimum of font size can engrave?
    Or any best brand suggestion on CNC brand and model? Thanks in advance!
    Loy



  10. #130

    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Hi Loy, you can create a thread specific to this to get right answers.

    -Rupesh


  11. #131
    Member mactec54's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Stark View Post
    Hi Mactec54,

    You mean, to mount in lathe between center and then use jack underneath to remove the bent? is that safe?

    I have been experiencing few things while I am learning the mach3 and the router itself.

    1. If the power supply is gone, mach3 keeps running on laptop. It doesn't detect motors not moving as power is gone. I have to stop it by using stop button. Once power come back it takes the last cutting position as zero and start all together ruining things.

    2. My Y axis has one slave. sometimes I see the master motor moves such that the slave couldn't follow resulting in bent in the X axis. It happened when I jack up the velocity and acceleration I think. I did it today and it went too far before I could stop it. Some bolt came loose. re-aligned and tightened all. Current setting is 150 step per, 2500vel, 200 acceleration. All in mm unit. Given 2005 ball screw and nema23 (3.1n-m) shouldn't it be higher then this ?

    3. I have asked the seller for replacement of that ballscrew. I has shipped one. I will machine that and check if the problem persists. Really disheartened to see it move life stuck-free-stuck-free kind off. Hiccups move.

    4. Got MDF 6mm and added 4 layer of it to make the wasteboard. Trammed the router (still not fully trammed). and flattened the bed. As It is my first experience with router, doing mistakes more often. Learning !!!.

    5 MDF is really dusty. So fine particles. I have ordered one powerful Vacuum cleaner for it.

    6. Got some ball nose bit, 2 flute. My router takes only 6mm and 8 mm shank bit. even 6.3 won't fit in the collet. I am searching for adapter but not able to find one. may be I will machine one on lathe. I don't know how accurate that would be.
    You can mount it in the chuck ( Protecting the Screw with aluminum ) near where the bend is and slide a piece of pipe over the Ballscrew and just pull or push on it a little at time, checking it with an indicator until you have it straight, ( go gentle on it as they can bend very easy and you don't want to over bend it ) clean and reassemble

    Mactec54


  12. #132

    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Thank you Mactec. I got that shorted out.

    But a new problem came to the fore. Screwed my Makita Router. I was test cutting the aluminum at 0.3mm depth every pass at not much high velocity (1600mm/s). The job was almost finished when the unfortunate thing happened. The tool got loose and stuck while cutting. The router was making a X movement at that time. Due to this, the router mount got twisted along with router. By the time I stopped, they were like twisted 30 deg from the vertical. The makita router chocked as it was not able to spin. I stopped it and pulled it out. I found out the speed controller is no longer working. The router will run like fast-slow-fast-slow at any speed setting and would produce lot of smell of varnish or something. The aluminum mount were twisted along with bolts. I fixed those but router went to the graveyard. As this is jus a month old router and barely clocked 3-4 hrs, I took it to the service center. They opened it and told that both armature and field coil are shorted and gone which would need replacement & a weeks time.

    Now when I reflect back on the sequence of event, I am not sure if the tool became loose first or the Makita speed controller malfunctioned while running which led to this. When I pulled the router out the tool came loose. So my first belief was that this is tools doing but it may be possible that speed fell way below cutting speed and so the twisting happened and as a result tool came out too.

    I was just there when this happened and stopped it in may be 1 sec or 2 but that was enough to cause damage. While I am contemplating on this, I have few questions which I would need some direction/help on:

    1. How long the router should run in one go while cutting wood or aluminum.
    2. For wood I was using 2 flute 6mm end mill, for aluminum I was using 4 flute 6mm flute which I changed in between to 2 flute as 4 flute was creating fine particle. is it ok?
    3. I learnt that I should use two wrench to tighten the tool bit and not use the lock knob to do it.
    4. The rpm on router was around 15-16k while cutting aluminum. I judge base on tool sound while cutting. The same goes with the feed rate, I start slow and move up tillI see it comfortable. Is the approach right?

    I am trying to avoid such catastrophic even in future. Your valuable suggestion will count.

    The exact moment of this happening and tool position is there in the pic attached. snapped just few sec before the event.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)-img_20201018_002939-jpg  
    -Rupesh


  13. #133
    Member peteeng's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Hi Rupesh - I abused a Makita like yours for about 2 years and 600 hrs until the brushes failed. Put in new brushes and it was off again like new. 1) The tool should never move in the collet even in a crash. You say 6mm tool was the collet a 1/4" collet? In Oz they come with a 1/4" collet. If so you would not be able to do the bit up tight enough. 2)The Mak will run continuous in any material as long as it is cutting. The cnc router has to be very stiff to cut aluminium and your feedrate needs to be much faster then 1600mm/min (I assume you mean mins and NOT mm.sec? wow that would be fast) Look up some chip load tables to find out what I mean. A single flute tool is the go with fast spindles if you can't move at the correct speed. 3) if the bit is making fine particles and not chips it means its rubbing not cutting. In the case of Al this means imminate particle welding and bit failure is about to happen... you probably won't cut Al effectively with this set up. Peter



  14. #134
    Member routalot's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    I'm sorry to learn of your accident.One further thing to keep in mind is that the tool should not be seated too deeply in the collet before tightening the collet nut.You need 2-3mm of space behind it so that the collet grips tightly because it the tool is inserted until there is contact behind it,the friction of trying to move the collet on the shank can prevent the correct grip being developed.Which can lead to the tool working loose and if you are using an upcut tool,the problem is amplified.Most of my CNC experience has been gained with ER32 collets and at that size there isn't a problem with holding a 6mm shank in a 1/4 inch collet.With the much smaller router collets there is a much smaller range of shank diameter that can be accommodated.



  15. #135
    Member peteeng's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Hi Routalot - The ER collets have many slits in them allowing the collet to accommodate a range of sizes. The makita collet has 4 slots and from experience a 1/4" collet won't pull up on a 6mm bit (unless you gorilla it) I bought a 6mm makita collet for my 6mm bits and they are easy to pull up. ER32 thats quite big in my world actually thats very big! One of my machines has an ER11 collet and I like it as its small and long....My world is 1/8", 1/4" and 6mm..Peter



  16. #136

    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    The collet they give here is 6mm and 8mm. My 1/4" shank tool doesn't go into it. Only 6mm would go in 6 mm collet.

    On feedrate, I checked it was 500mm/min in solidworks setup and I was running it at around 120% of this. 1600mm/min was my motor tuning.

    When I realized it Producing fine particle i stopped and changed to 2 flute and did some rpm adjustment on mak. After that it was producing chips as a mill cutter should.

    One of the main objective to build this was to cut some aluminum. Looks like I need to find a sweet spot of all values to get it work. As the Mak is in service center, I have re-focused on the machine now. greasing guides tightening bolts, checking squareness, re-aligning rails and couplings/motor and setting up the motor vel/acceleration etc.

    As mentioned the motor was kept to 1600mm/min velocity. I saw it chocking at 2500mm/min. After all of the above maintenance/adjustment, now X is clocking 4500mm/min and Y is clocking 3500mm/min without chocking/stalling. I will keep the setting may be 70% of these value. Also adjusted "steps per" using dial gauge. It was 150 now its accurate at 160.

    I am also bolstering the X axis support to make it more rigid. I measured the vibration of X while jogging at different speed and acceleration setting. Also saw the columns vibrating. Trying to provide restrains to arrest these issues.

    Can you elaborate why this would not cut Al effectively. I will try addressing those if I can or at least learn about it.

    Last edited by Tony_Stark; 10-22-2020 at 04:44 AM.
    -Rupesh


  17. #137

    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Quote Originally Posted by routalot View Post
    One further thing to keep in mind is that the tool should not be seated too deeply in the collet before tightening the collet nut. You need 2-3mm of space behind it so that the collet grips tightly because it the tool is inserted until there is contact behind it, the friction of trying to move the collet on the shank can prevent the correct grip being developed.
    My tool bit was not long, so out of necessity I had not inserted it too dip. If this happened due to tool coming loose, may be when I changed the tool mid-flight I didn't tightened it to the required level.

    -Rupesh


  18. #138
    Member peteeng's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Hi Rupesh - By effectively I mean by how a mill would cut. Your DOC is 0.3mm. A std mill cut would be one diameter so 6mm deep. By using small DOC you will wear the tool out fast by using just 0.3mm of it. Machine rigidity is very important in cutting metals. From info supplied your chip load is 0.050mm see attached (or chip width per tooth). Correct if wrong. So the cutter is trying to cut a 0.050mm thick chip. If the machine deflects more then 0.050mm which your machine probably does then it skips or slides and the next tooth tries the same and may dig in due to the router springing away then bouncing back. ie its a really rough cut may even be a chatter vs a cut.

    https://cimquest-inc.com/what-is-chi...ugh%20to%20cut.

    The CL chart I have here says that for Al it should be 0.130mm or bigger say 0.180mm. So you need to cut at slower spindle speed (which the Mak can't) or double or triple your feedrate or use a single flute tool or combinations of these. In any case your machine has to be able to deflect much less then the CL to cut effectively. The chip load is related to the gullet size of the tool. The chip has to be created (it curls) and it has to move through the gullet and be ejected. If the chip is too big it jams or stalls in the gullet then the next chip piles on and suddenly you have a galled tool. A single tooth cutter has the biggest clearance. I'm not a fan of these but they have a place.

    If you have a dial guage and a scale you can measure the load required to move your tool the chip load distance say 0.2mm then you know the load. To cut aluminium you need 15-25kg of force at least (depends on your cutting speed Power = force x speed) if the measured load is less then 10-15 kg then your machine can't cut cleanly at the required chipload... That's why VMC's are at least 100N/0.001mm stiffness so they deflect very small amounts enabling shallow finishing cuts to be done and heavy roughing cuts to be stable.

    So the VMC if tool deflects 0.01mm which means it can cut the 0.050mm has an applied load of 1000N or 100kgf some VMC can cut at 3 tonnes of force...

    Also are you cutting conventional or climbing? or both? if climb cutting the machine is trying to cut an infinitely small cut to begin with to the calculated CL at the end. This is effectively a ramp if the machine is not stiff enough to start the cut. Then the edge just rubs and dulls then picks up and its All Over, Red Rover as we say down here... Peter

    By the way the tool supplier will provide a chart for tested chip loads so you have a starting point. My experience trying to cut AL with a Makita is poor, its too fast and my router was not stiff enough... I am building a new machine to sort that now...

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)-chip-load-jpg   CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)-cl-jpg  
    Last edited by peteeng; 10-22-2020 at 05:31 AM.


  19. #139
    Member peteeng's Avatar
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    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Hi Rupesh - I got the conventional vs climb back the front and can't edit the entry. Thinking and writing sometimes does not work. So conventional cutting starts at the thin side and the cut gets thicker. Climbing, the cut starts thick and gets thin, This is why the machine may want to rush fwd (when climbing) as its digging in and has to start a cut with heavy shear forces. conventional starts gentler but needs a sharp stiff tool to break through the thin "ramp". By the way what alloy and temper do you have? The hard alloys are easier to cut as they chip rather then smear. T6 T8 are best.. Peter



  20. #140

    Default Re: CNC router build to machine wood and aluminium (1mX1mX0.4m)

    Thanks peter.

    The calculation make sense to me and at the same time gives me some idea on how to machine and what to expect. 0.3mm DOC was me being conservative or say uncertain as this was a test cut in aluminum. I can also feel its not that rigid to machine aluminum like pro but I believe I can improve the design as I learn and grow. Your explanation gives me a fair understanding of how the feed/DOC/rpm etc. are interlinked and play out while machining.

    The aluminum you see was the clamp in making. The internal slot was of 8mm which turned out to be 7.8 to 7.9mm after the machining. one reason was when I changed the tool I had to reset and zero again which led to some misalignment and I could see a new ridge on the slot (power supply went off and I had to re-zero). plus I figured out later that my "steps per "is not set right. It was 150 later I corrected to 160. I understand the design is not that rigid but I will have to find a sweet spot of compromise. I am not going to machine a lot of Al but I will do it often.

    I plan to make modifications as I progress. Its a stiff learning curve for me. Your idea of adding stiffness to column is there in my mind. I also plan to mount sensors/accelerometers to columns/gantry and measure vibrations Realtime and do modifications. After all its hobby, its should be fun. (except Makita tragedy, that's too much fun).

    I was doing both side milling. Shall I restrict to conventional?

    -Rupesh


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