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  1. #461
    Member StrawberryBoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Some pro cable management there!

    Looking forward to that video!



  2. #462
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Hi Strawb - some pro, some some amateur, but thanks for the praise. Viewers turn your sound down! Here's YaGs first cut. The ply had a small bounce in it, needed better hold down.... will need to learn a bit about its cut, Its different to Scoot-S1 can go deeper and faster... as it should.

    The underline is me being anxious and starting at the wrong Z when doing the boundary check, but the rest went well. I thought it was going to be the first divot in the bench...

    So the design and build journey has ended. Now we move to the development stage. Dust control, fine alignment. Oh by the way I found that UCCNC can home the A-Axis. So the envelope is 1240x900x153. Next one I'll add 60mm to Z and maybe a little to the 900mm now I can see where things are.... I'll set up a deflection test soon to follow up on how it compares to the FE model.... a little more mano / machine bonding is needed...

    https://fb.watch/85oy2Kd0-U/

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-yag-cut-2-jpg   Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-yag-cut-1-jpg  


  3. #463
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Wooohoooo! So good to see YaG up and running. Wonderful work Peter.



  4. #464
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Forgot I had recorded this for you Pete, this is the router at work cutting aluminum.







  5. #465
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Just for the inevitable questions...

    25krpm

    The .125" AL5000 series I have cut a lot so I run that at 36ipm slotting and 72ipm for adaptive with 0.018" radial DOC, full depth axial DOC. I run a 0.01" finish pass and a spring pass at 24ipm usually. Generally I get around +/- 0.0015", but since I don't bother with tool wear I just oversize the nominals by .002" and I usually get a nice tap in fit for bearings. Is it precision? NO. It's prototyping.

    For the slotting it hums along with much more noise but little to no chatter at 36ipm, full axial DOC. The other heavy user does a 10° max ramp with a 0.125" step down, but HSMxpress limits it to the stepdown for each profile pass. Starting 0.025" above the part due to an unsurfaced and highly chewed spoilboard, it takes two very chattery circuits on the profile before it completely and reliably breaks through. Bore-drilling at a 0.2" hole diameter at 14-24ipm and 25krpm gets me a nice hole with almost no noise, then I slot full depth. It is loud-ish (almost enough to wear hearing protection) but the ramp method is FREAKING LOUD.

    For the .250" I limited it to a 0.2" step because I'd not cut that deep with AL before with that 1/8" endmill. I also reduced the ipm to 48ipm for adaptive a at 0.018" RDOC and 24ipm for slotting. In the end I started pushing the feed rate up because it was fine at the normal rates.



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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi All - I have been whittling away at a heavy duty benchtoprouter . This thread is picking up close to the rough design completion. I'm about to compare a belt drive to a ballscrew drive and make the decision which way to go. The machine is intended for hobbyists and makers. It is a 1/4 sheet machine and will take a full sheet overhanging. So in theory if you register the setups you could cut a full sheet. Its for hobbyists who have a benchtop or small garage space. It's bigger then chinese machines and uses 20mm square rails for its motion control. I looked at 15mm miniature rails, 15mm std rails and the price was similar so went with the bigger rails and cars. This thread will be more about the build then the engineering. Its bench is a made from 19mm hardwood ply or birch ply. It's a high rail design so its stiff and contains dust well. It's a good size for guitar makers. I may extend the outer sheets to create a box to contain dust even better...All comments appreciated Peter
    same here with me.



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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Hi Strawb - When I started in the industry hearing protection was not "in" and most machinists were deaf. ALWAYS wear ear protection when machinery is on. Once ears are damaged they never recover and its accumulative. I have mild hearing loss from being in industrial environments for a long time and I've always worn muffs when on machinery. Thanks for the vids. Oh its dry cutting? no oil in the airline? Peter

    Hi Bent - enjoy the read its a looong one. Peter

    Last edited by peteeng; 09-18-2021 at 06:16 PM.


  8. #468
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    The coolant is isopropyl alcohol misted.



  9. #469
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Cut 0.25" thick 6061 today with a 2F 1/4" end mill at 1000SFM (~16krpm) and 100ipm on that router. The video is currently processing via flow WiFi.

    Summation: Helical plunging started to overtorque the spindle. It managed it, barely, but I already redid the program for future cuts on this part to fix a few mistakes (missing non-critical holes, not using a pre-bore before slotting resulting in a straight plunge with the 1/8" 1F). I decided to pre-drill with the 1/8" 1F in the future so the 1/4" 2F is just clearing. And clear it freaking does, with a full ADOC for the stock and 0.04" RDOC. Hogged that stuff out like pretty loud butter.

    And yes, as I always do, I was wearing hearing protection. Thank you pete for caring! I'm probably the only guy that reliably puts on PPE. It's always good to be reminded of why we wear this warm and annoying stuff.

    Here's some pics of the finished part. One of the mistakes was not doing a spring pass on the larger hole, which a bearing of course is going into. Had to smooth it out manually afterwards. Thankfully still just proto stuff, no critical locations. The dowel pin spots work great with the undersized dowels I got for them.

    EDIT: Apparently too large to process. Added 1 at a time and now they are attached.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-img_20210920_145747188-jpg   Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-img_20210920_145838929-jpg   Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-img_20210920_145736637-jpg  


  10. #470
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Some definite goofs on my part as I am rushing to finish the prototype by tomorrow AM while also not working outside my normal hours for family reasons.

    I bore drilled to do the slotting and then forgot to actually use the pre-drilled hole.

    I was too aggressive on the 1/4" helical bore for the adaptives.

    I didn't do a finishing pass on a dimensionally and finish critical feature.

    I have the outside contour cut set to 12ipm and not 36ipm so I had to manually adjust the feed rate and sloppy fingers hit the speed change buttons immediately adjacent and almost stalled the spindle on the slotting operation.

    A few of the regular users came and watched the clearing with the 1/4" and we're shocked at how much material was being removed. The endmill was barely above room temp at the end of the cycle. The spindle was warm to the touch.

    Overall quite pleased although I really puckered up on those helical dives...







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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Feeds and speeds are always helpful... the adaptive clearing certainly proves the benefits of loading up the tool.

    Just curious what kind of machine that is and what is being utilized for the spoil board?

    Adam,

    G540, Rack and Pinion Drives-X/Y axis, 1/2-Ball Screw-Z Axis w/THK HSR 25 Linear Slides, Steppers KL23H2100-35-4B, Power Supply-KL-600-48


  12. #472
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    It's a custom router built by one of the founders of the startup I work at.

    The spoil board is high density PVC.

    I ran the part again with the corrections I mentioned. I got a resonance on the material at the 36ipm slotting, 12ipm was a sweet spot on the first cut, I ran 36ipm on the final contour pass>

    Pre-drilling a 0.270" hole was magical for the 1/4" clearing. I pushed the feed up to the machine max under control which is 120ipm and it was absolutely gorgeous. I didn't record much of it because I was pushing it so I was watching carefully. No chatter this time because I did not helical bore with the 1/4".

    Found out after the fact that the 1/4" I put in was a few thousandths small and my two locating holes came in 0.001-0.002" small when they should have come in 0.001-0.002" large. Frustrating that I didn't check the hole diameters or post the g-code in control so I could go back and redo that pass, but again they aren't actually critical, I'm just getting used to these tools I've not had access to before. I've always been the designer for precision parts, never the machinist. I'm having a blast. Haven't yet worked up to the Matsuura VMC that's right next to the router, sitting there, silent, begging for me to cut stuff with it.

    Looking up the Accupro (endmill manufacturer for this endmill) SFM data, I'm seeing 800-2000SFM and 0.002" CPT. The machine limit would be 25krpm, so 1635SFM, which works out to 100ipm at that. Next time I'll try those settings instead.

    On the flip side, the little 1/8" can only achieve 818SFM and with 0.001" CPT that's only 25ipm... maybe I'll give the 1/8" 2 and 3 flutes we have a shot, but for now it's working really well.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-accuprosfm-png  


  13. #473
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Evening All - Today I used YaG in anger for the first time. Two objectives 1) to make a threshold for the washroom and 2) to check the squareness and cut size. The threshold was low tolerance enough for the job. The x was good the Y was 897mm when it should have been 930mm so a quick adjustment of settings. But it dropped in anyway and now I'll epoxy it. YaG is so much stiffer then Scoot cutting faster and deeper. Time to get some new sharp bits and see what it can do.... I put a curtain on the gantry for dust control seems to be a good thing....I'll bring my dust collector home and start figuring a hood... Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-washroom-jpg   Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-threashold-2-jpg   Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-threashold-1-jpg  


  14. #474
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Hi all - in prior entry I said the cut was 897mm must have been asleep. It was 927mm intended to be 930mm so a quick adjustment of parameters to fix that. Peter



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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Afternoon All & Sultry - Hope your all playing with your CNCs to shake off the lockdown blues. Today I installed a small insurance policy for my fingers. I've been lucky so far and still have all my digits. I did take the side of my thumb off once with a hand saw, still has a flat spot but I'm cautious with things that can remove flesh. I'll start planning the spindle upgrade soon...Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-switch-jpg  


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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Morning All - Starting to do systems checks on YaG and noticed the drivers are set to half current. So I'll have a look at the drivers in more detail. Have to find their manuals. So I decided to check the drive tolerance. neglecting backlash and CAM settings, the C7 ballscrew is the driving low tolerance component. See calcs attached. The stepper is a mechanical system that "corrects" its position every mechanical step. Electronic micro steps are fuzzy positions with no known tolerance. Plus the CAM system has to decide how to "end and start" things. I'm not sure if they round up or truncate steps. So the basic ballscrew systems tolerance is decided in this case by the motor mechanical tolerance, the ustep tolerance (+/- 1) or the ballscrew tolerance. On my little router I use 400 step/rev motors that give twice the accuracy of the 200 step ones. You can get higher grade motors then 5% as well. So in the end at 1000usteps/rev YaG gets +/-0.050mm / 300mm which for my stuff is spectacular. So those building mills and want to get better then 0.01mm you need very good ballscrews... Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-system-tolerance-jpg   Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-ballscrews-jpg  


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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Evening all - Did a small job for my wife today. She's a beekeeper and wax foundation is scarce so she is going to use plastic ones. They needed to be trimmed 3mm to suit the frames so I set up YaG and she loaded-unloaded and operated YaG (25 to do). Now YaG is working I want to pull Brevis down and paint it and rebuild, then move onto Argus the laser cutter and get it talking to the software. So many things to get done. Peter

    edit - YaG and I are getting comfortable now so its time to give it a good test. Perhaps some Frankenrouter parts....

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-frame-trim-1-jpg   Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-brevis-1-jpg   Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-frame-trim-2-jpg   Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-argus-1-jpg  



  18. #478
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Some drivers have a "half current" switch for use when the motors are stationary, you might have that type. Others have "current limits", typically a few different levels.

    With regard to microstepping and accuracy, I prefer to have the motors geared down to allow the use of coarser microsteps, the high microstep counts lose torque, and I believe ( I'm open to comments otherwise) that machines are more likely to miss steps with high microstep numbers.

    On my 10x5ish router I set the microsteps to give the smoothest results at my typical feed rates, because I dislike the sound of the motor resonance ( possibly a side effect of the aluminium extruded bed ).



  19. #479
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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    I have no idea from a PMSM motor designer perspective if the microsteps will make it more likely you miss the physical steps, but steps are very sharp differences in torque vs motor position. Microsteps are using fast control to hold at a point that is unstable whereas PMSM and induction motors usually have small to no variation in torque by rotor position by design. I would imagine without direct experience that the stepper motors are 'softer' (less inherent torque pulling them back to the micro-step position) in a microstep position. It should be the worst near a physical step increment. Depending on the controller the microsteps may not even be linear in position, there may be a difference in actual position throughout the microsteps between hard steps.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the magnetic field works very similarly to a spring too, so even at a hard step, torque will shift the motor angle until the field is applying sufficient torque to prevent further movement. The movement might be small, but it's real. Only feedback can provide the controller the ability to accurately correct rotor position, otherwise it only knows load.



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    Default Re: Designing a new router called Brevis-HD

    Hi Zorbit - Yes I looked up the manual and S4 is the standing current. In some applications you want full current when stationary. In a router if a motor is stationary its unlikely you need full torque (maybe on the Z thats not true) so limiting current limits the motor heating up. My Brevis2 uses gearboxes 5:1 and 10:1 with Nema17 400step motors. Very impressive performance from those little things. I like the big output shaft they have suitable for a belt drive. "High" ustep count is relative. I'd like to know who uses 25000 usteps... These N17's are going to go on Frankenrouter.

    In YaGs case you can see that going to 1600, 2000 or 3200 usteps would not change the system accuracy. It may make the motion smoother. So use the least usteps to get smooth motion. YaG has a slight gantry rumble midspan. I may change the usteps to see if this is acoustic rumble or structural vibration.... machines make all sorts of noises, takes a while to figure out whats what.

    The ustep is achieved by controlling the relative strength of opposing magnetic coils. I imagine the more usteps the more difficult it is for that current to be controlled and hold a spot in space, included in that puzzle is the inductance of the system making things fuzzier. That's all up to the electronics wizzes. I just plug them in and they work!! Peter

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Designing a new router called Brevis-HD-brevis2-gearboxs-jpg  


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