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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by drxlcarfreak View Post
    That's true, and I don't see these motors losing position at all with their strength and the speeds I have dropped them to.

    True as well, unforunately, I need a version with the debounce option otherwise my vfd is tripping the limit switches.



    Hmm, I guess that is a decently long time. Unfortunately the software doesn't allow for decimals and 1ms was still tripping occasionally.


    UGH, all this is starting to sound like I need to just pony up and buy a new VFD instead of trying to limp this one along. Are there any decent 2.2kw VFDs out there for the money? My spindle still seems to be operating 100% fine.
    Another VFD is not going to change anything they all make EMI, if it is not wired correctly will play havoc with your whole system, a good test if you have everything wired correct is no debounce is needed, so need some photos of your wiring

    Do you have a input power filter in front of the VFD Drive this can help a lot with the EMI here is one that I think is best suited for your VFD TDK Lambda RSEN 2030L this would be a starting point

    Next is your cable from the VFD Drive to the Spindle 4 core Shielded or Double Shielded is required , and the shields correctly terminated at each end

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Z-axis overshooting sometimes-tdk-lambda-rsen-2030l-power-filter-png  
    Mactec54


  2. #22
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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Yes, sorry I forget that not everyone knows what I have been going through and forget to mention everything. The machine was running fine for about 2 years, then all of a sudden I got a weird issue where starting the spindle would occasionally trigger a limit, if I jiggled the spindle cable it would work. I just assumed that the wire for the spindle was too close to the Z axis inductance sensor. Then one day no matter what I did I couldn't get the spindle to turn on at all without triggering a limit. The only way to get the spindle to run without tripping a limit was to unplug everything from the control box minus the spindle, but then again when I did that, it was running in limit override mode because the servos were showing as tripped, so it may very well have still been tripping a limit. It was mentioned on the UCCNC forum that the cheaper chinese VFDs main capacitors dry out quickly and increase the noise. Updating the software to get the debounce parameter fixed it, but I think it possibly has introduced other issues.

    1. I do have dust collection, but with my issues, I use it very rarely, but, I will try grounding it to see if that helps with anything.

    2. I am looking for a decent EMI filter. For a 2.2kw spindle, will a 20amp filter do? Doing a quick calc at single phase 220v, the max it will pull is 10amps, plus losses in the VFD.

    3. I am using shielded and either 18/4 or 16/4 wire. Inside the case is a different story. For some stupid reason I stripped all of the wires to make it easier to terminate the wires so there isnt any shielded cables inside the case. I do plan to get clamp on ferrite rings to try and reduce the EMI in there as well. The grounding I will have to check, but I believe that I wired the ground to the spindle. and the other ground to the case.

    4. Looking at the webpage I got them from (https://www.automationdirect.com/adc..._cables/evc179) again, it doesn't look like it is shielded. Would ferrite rings on either end help out here?

    I only blame the VFD because it seemed to be the root of my other issues forcing me to update the software to an alpha release. Another problem I can think of is I put everything in one case and the breakout boards and directly above the VFD. When wiring it up, I had read to keep everything away from the power supply because it has noise, but heard nothing about a VFD until after everything was wired in. Would moving it out, or maybe adding sheet steel/aluminum between the top of the VFD and the control boards help keep noise separated?

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181110_010351-jpg

    If you think it is mechanical, what other items could it be? Losing steps I totally get in every direction, but gaining steps doesn't make sense to me, at least mechanically wise. The Z sort of made sense since if the coupler is slipping the weight on the acme thread just allows it to keep going into the board when the motor stops. I don't think it was slipping because before I welded the coupler to the rod I had the motor holding steady and used vice grips to try and make the rod slip, I put a ton of force on it and the rod didn't budge. That said, I am totally willing to have my horizons broadened.



  3. #23
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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Another VFD is not going to change anything they all make EMI, if it is not wired correctly will play havoc with your whole system, a good test if you have everything wired correct is no debounce is needed, so need some photos of your wiring

    Do you have a input power filter in front of the VFD Drive this can help a lot with the EMI here is one that I think is best suited for your VFD TDK Lambda RSEN 2030L this would be a starting point

    Next is your cable from the VFD Drive to the Spindle 4 core Shielded or Double Shielded is required , and the shields correctly terminated at each end
    I was only saying a new VFD based on the assumption from another forum thread that this one is on its way out (https://www.forum.cncdrive.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2092).

    I have no input filter yet. I was planning on picking one of those up as well as some ferrite rings for the VFD output and the stepper motor outputs.

    Sure, here are a bunch of pictures from when I upgraded to servos.

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181101_220300-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181102_231706-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181106_210517-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181106_215453-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181106_215458-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181106_215503-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181107_172302-jpg



  4. #24
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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by drxlcarfreak View Post
    Yes, sorry I forget that not everyone knows what I have been going through and forget to mention everything. The machine was running fine for about 2 years, then all of a sudden I got a weird issue where starting the spindle would occasionally trigger a limit, if I jiggled the spindle cable it would work. I just assumed that the wire for the spindle was too close to the Z axis inductance sensor. Then one day no matter what I did I couldn't get the spindle to turn on at all without triggering a limit. The only way to get the spindle to run without tripping a limit was to unplug everything from the control box minus the spindle, but then again when I did that, it was running in limit override mode because the servos were showing as tripped, so it may very well have still been tripping a limit. It was mentioned on the UCCNC forum that the cheaper chinese VFDs main capacitors dry out quickly and increase the noise. Updating the software to get the debounce parameter fixed it, but I think it possibly has introduced other issues.

    1. I do have dust collection, but with my issues, I use it very rarely, but, I will try grounding it to see if that helps with anything.

    2. I am looking for a decent EMI filter. For a 2.2kw spindle, will a 20amp filter do? Doing a quick calc at single phase 220v, the max it will pull is 10amps, plus losses in the VFD.

    3. I am using shielded and either 18/4 or 16/4 wire. Inside the case is a different story. For some stupid reason I stripped all of the wires to make it easier to terminate the wires so there isnt any shielded cables inside the case. I do plan to get clamp on ferrite rings to try and reduce the EMI in there as well. The grounding I will have to check, but I believe that I wired the ground to the spindle. and the other ground to the case.

    4. Looking at the webpage I got them from (https://www.automationdirect.com/adc..._cables/evc179) again, it doesn't look like it is shielded. Would ferrite rings on either end help out here?

    I only blame the VFD because it seemed to be the root of my other issues forcing me to update the software to an alpha release. Another problem I can think of is I put everything in one case and the breakout boards and directly above the VFD. When wiring it up, I had read to keep everything away from the power supply because it has noise, but heard nothing about a VFD until after everything was wired in. Would moving it out, or maybe adding sheet steel/aluminum between the top of the VFD and the control boards help keep noise separated?

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181110_010351-jpg

    If you think it is mechanical, what other items could it be? Losing steps I totally get in every direction, but gaining steps doesn't make sense to me, at least mechanically wise. The Z sort of made sense since if the coupler is slipping the weight on the acme thread just allows it to keep going into the board when the motor stops. I don't think it was slipping because before I welded the coupler to the rod I had the motor holding steady and used vice grips to try and make the rod slip, I put a ton of force on it and the rod didn't budge. That said, I am totally willing to have my horizons broadened.
    Yes you have a problem, the VFD Drive cable must be shielded all the way to the VFD Drive and the shield clamped to the metal case which would have a Ground connected, Twisting the wires can also help with noise, by your photo you have a lot of problems

    Yes you could put a Aluminum cage around the electronics, it really is a big problem the way it is, the power supply will be nosy as well, you may be able to move the electronics into another smaller cabinet on top

    Ferrite rings are not going to help with your cabinet layout

    Your VFD will be drawing Double the Amps that the spindle max is so you need a 30A EMI filter

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    And a few more...

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181110_010325-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181110_010351-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181110_010356-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181110_010404-jpg



  6. #26
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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by drxlcarfreak View Post
    I was only saying a new VFD based on the assumption from another forum thread that this one is on its way out (https://www.forum.cncdrive.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2092).

    I have no input filter yet. I was planning on picking one of those up as well as some ferrite rings for the VFD output and the stepper motor outputs.

    Sure, here are a bunch of pictures from when I upgraded to servos.

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181101_220300-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181102_231706-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181106_210517-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181106_215453-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181106_215458-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181106_215503-jpg

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-20181107_172302-jpg
    You should not take to much from what you read, they are all in the same boat as you are, they try different things instead of doing the build how it should be done from the start, what I can see by your photo's is wiring plugs Etc which are all problems for a system like this, a layout like this will always have a noise problems

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Yes you have a problem, the VFD Drive cable must be shielded all the way to the VFD Drive and the shield clamped to the metal case which would have a Ground connected, Twisting the wires can also help with noise, by your photo you have a lot of problems

    Yes you could put a Aluminum cage around the electronics, it really is a big problem the way it is, the power supply will be nosy as well, you may be able to move the electronics into another smaller cabinet on top

    Ferrite rings are not going to help with your cabinet layout

    Your VFD will be drawing Double the Amps that the spindle max is so you need a 30A EMI filter
    Ok, so:
    1. No ferrite rings
    2. 30A EMI filter
    3. Redo the VFD cable with shielded cable inside the cabinet.
    4. Faraday cage separating the top half from the bottom half of the electronics?
    5. Twist signal wires

    Honestly, looking at the wiring, I may not have the case grounded at all. I will need to look at that.

    I'd like to get away with not having to rewire the entire case if possible. This sounds hokey, but if I wrapped the bundle of signal wires running from the board to the quick disconnects in aluminum foil and somehow grounded it to the case, would that mimic shielded cables?



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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You should not take to much from what you read, they are all in the same boat as you are, they try different things instead of doing the build how it should be done from the start, what I can see by your photo's is wiring plugs Etc which are all problems for a system like this, a layout like this will always have a noise problems
    What is a preferred layout? Are plugs not good to have? Are there other quick disconnect options?



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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You should not take to much from what you read, they are all in the same boat as you are, they try different things instead of doing the build how it should be done from the start, what I can see by your photo's is wiring plugs Etc which are all problems for a system like this, a layout like this will always have a noise problems
    I saw that you said that this cable was a requirement for a 2.2kw spindle in another thread: https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ed/cf6-15-04-1

    Should I replace my current cable with this and run it directly from the VFD right to the Spindle, no disconnect in between?



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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by drxlcarfreak View Post
    I saw that you said that this cable was a requirement for a 2.2kw spindle in another thread: https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ed/cf6-15-04-1

    Should I replace my current cable with this and run it directly from the VFD right to the Spindle, no disconnect in between?


    Yes. And you cut off a small section of the outer cover inside the box, exposing the shielding. Using some sort of fixture, ground the shielding to the box's ground plane. Although not idea, you can take a copper plumbing mounting strap shaped like this:

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-plumber-s-choice-pipe-hangers-112cpstg-64_1000-a

    Then, flatten it out and reshape to look this this:

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-plumber-s-choice-pipe-hangers-112cpswg-10-a

    Be sure that the circle fits the cable shielding, i.e., when the screw is tightened down on the ground plane, the circle closes tightly over the cable shielding.

    As I indicated before, I'm a fan of Igus CF6 cable. That's what I'm using.

    Gary


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Z-axis overshooting sometimes-plumber-s-choice-pipe-hangers-112cpstg-64_1000-a   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-plumber-s-choice-pipe-hangers-112cpswg-10-a  
    The Old Man and the C -----NC


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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    [SIZE=4][FONT=times new roman]

    Yes. And you cut off a small section of the outer cover inside the box, exposing the shielding. Using some sort of fixture, ground the shielding to the box's ground plane. Although not idea, you can take a copper plumbing mounting strap shaped like this:

    Then, flatten it out and reshape to look this this:

    Be sure that the circle fits the cable shielding, i.e., when the screw is tightened down on the ground plane, the circle closes tightly over the cable shielding.

    As I indicated before, I'm a fan of Igus CF6 cable. That's what I'm using.

    Gary
    Fair enough I ordered the input power filter that Mactec recommended, I will buy 30' of that shielded cable that you recommended, abandon the plug and run the wire directly to the VFD. I also plan to wrap the low voltage signal wires in the case with EMI shielding tape and possibly, put in a faraday cage around the controller and breakout boards. Is there anything else I should look into doing before I put it back in service?



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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by drxlcarfreak View Post
    What is a preferred layout? Are plugs not good to have? Are there other quick disconnect options?
    Plugs are always a source of problems, direct wiring as it is done in CNC machines Etc is less work and less problems

    Start with the filter and new cable, a shield would be very beneficial in your case as every thing is very compact

    Some Ideas on how to Ground the Shields

    Some VFD Drives already have built in Shield Ground clamps snips below

    EMI Glands perform the best for through Cabinet mounting and Spindle mounting for Shield Grounding

    So lots of snips for you to look at

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Z-axis overshooting sometimes-grounding-shields-6-jpg   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-grounding-shields-7-png   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-shield-clamp-png   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-vfd-shield-ground-motor-cable-png  

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-shield-clamp-3-png   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-shield-clamp-9-png   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-shield-grounding-png   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-shield-grounding-1-png  

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Some more as there are many examples of how to do things better if you know what is and can be used

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Z-axis overshooting sometimes-vfd-shield-ground-motor-cable-2-png   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-gounding-post-case-png   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-ground-buss-png   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-metal-gland-wire-restraint-png  

    Z-axis overshooting sometimes-shield-gland-cable-restraint-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by drxlcarfreak View Post
    I saw that you said that this cable was a requirement for a 2.2kw spindle in another thread: https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ed/cf6-15-04-1

    Should I replace my current cable with this and run it directly from the VFD right to the Spindle, no disconnect in between?
    Yes that is the cable to use from the VFD to the Spindle, make sure the Spindle Ground is attached in side the Spindle to the 4th pin of the plug the other alternative is to not use a Spindle plug and use a Gland for Shield clamping built in this is the best for EMI protection, you crimp all 4 wired joining them to the Shielded cable

    Cable prep is also important that you only expose enough wire length to do your connection, make sure all wires and shield are cleanly trimmed

    Twist all wires where ever you can Filter to the VFD Do not twist in the Ground wire only Power wires, a photo of Twisted wires

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Z-axis overshooting sometimes-metal-gland-wire-restraint-png   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-shield-gland-cable-restraint-png   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-cable-prep-shield-clamping-png   Z-axis overshooting sometimes-hpim2919-jpg  

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    If I ever get that far where I'm using a VFD I'll be putting it in it's own separate case as far as poss from both the PC and controller case.



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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Yes that is the cable to use from the VFD to the Spindle, make sure the Spindle Ground is attached in side the Spindle to the 4th pin of the plug the other alternative is to not use a Spindle plug and use a Gland for Shield clamping built in this is the best for EMI protection, you crimp all 4 wired joining them to the Shielded cable

    Cable prep is also important that you only expose enough wire length to do your connection, make sure all wires and shield are cleanly trimmed

    Twist all wires where ever you can Filter to the VFD Do not twist in the Ground wire only Power wires
    Fair enough. I will have to look into my spindle to see if the connector will come out easily enough to do that. I also need to find a wire gland that is actually metal inside, and hopefully available on amazon prime so I can get it in the next couple days to get this thing back up and running again.



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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    If I ever get that far where I'm using a VFD I'll be putting it in it's own separate case as far as poss from both the PC and controller case.
    Good idea.... When I put mine in I didn't read about it anywhere and tried to mimic other cases that I had seen that apparently didn't have issues. I am actually beginning to wonder if my old nema23 steppers were not an issue and were powerful enough, but because of the added drives in the enclosure I was getting random EMI issues with lost steps...



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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    If I ever get that far where I'm using a VFD I'll be putting it in it's own separate case as far as poss from both the PC and controller case.
    It is not a problem if everything is wired correctly, a separate cabinet does not always solve an EMI problem, so using a separate cabinet in most cases it can create other problems

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    It is not a problem if everything is wired correctly, a separate cabinet does not always solve an EMI problem, so using a separate cabinet in most cases it can create other problems
    When you say wired correctly, what do you mean exactly? Shielded cables, no disconnects to the case but emi shields instead, all grounds go to one spot, keep shields on wires inside case especially low power signal cables. What else am I missing? Is there a picture of a perfectly wired control panel with a VFD out there to reference?



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    Default Re: Z-axis overshooting sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by drxlcarfreak View Post
    Good idea.... When I put mine in I didn't read about it anywhere and tried to mimic other cases that I had seen that apparently didn't have issues. I am actually beginning to wonder if my old nema23 steppers were not an issue and were powerful enough, but because of the added drives in the enclosure I was getting random EMI issues with lost steps...
    Most likely where not the problem as many use steppers without problems, it all come's down to wiring in most cases, steppers also are noisy and need shielded cables and good Grounding practice for Shields and Ground wires

    Simple Aluminum shields around noisy parts like stepper drives , VFD Drives low voltage Electronics can save the day, the Shield needs to be Grounded

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Z-axis overshooting sometimes-working-principle-grounded-shield-png  
    Mactec54


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