GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

[GME]

Got it. Thank you. I appreciate your weighing in.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

I was referring to the photo of the yellow router.

The "Yellow Router" or CAMaster is a very well made and selling commercial duty unit. Not a DIY or hobby model. If those legs keep the other parallel I would think that would be a big deal! Most commercial routers have those and are welded steel. Look whats on the market.

[skrubol]

The "Yellow Router" or CAMaster is a very well made and selling commercial duty unit. Not a DIY or hobby model. If those legs keep the other parallel I would think that would be a big deal! Most commercial routers have those and are welded steel. Look whats on the market.

It's most likely to prevent the router from getting damaged during transport and to help keep things square while (and after) welding. Ask any mech engineer, rectangles are weak, triangles are strong.

[ger21]

The "Yellow Router" or CAMaster is a very well made and selling commercial duty unit. Not a DIY or hobby model. If those legs keep the other parallel I would think that would be a big deal! Most commercial routers have those and are welded steel. Look whats on the market.

You could argue that the only reason it works is because it's welded steel. Parallelograms are nowhere near as rigid as triangles.

[wmgeorge]

I think CAMaster has it pretty well figured out by now, after how many years?

[GME]

I think CAMaster has it pretty well figured out by now, after how many years?

Bill,

You seem to really like the Camaster CNCs; you often speak well of them. Are you thinking about selling you Saturn 2 and dropping the big bucks for a CAMaster?


Could I ask a favor? Would you mind measuring the bracket thingy for me on your Saturn 2? It's the bracket for the rack & pinion drive that used with the tensioning bolt. Fineline calls it the "Spring Mount Plate." Here's a picture of it:




I still have the bracket from my old machine, but it was designed to fasten to a larger flat surface than the mounting plate affords. I suspect that is why Fine Line made the change. The original bracket came from CNCRP. Here's a picture of it:




I suppose I could accommodate the old support by adding a piece of flat metal behind where the bracket attaches to the interface plate, but that would look pretty mickey mouse. I'd rather something more like Fine Line uses. And yes, I suppose I could buy the bracket from Fine Line, but already poor service appears to be deteriorating even further. Since I'm already fabricating stuff anyway, a few more pieces won't be a big deal.

Gary

[GME]

For anyone who hasn't used a manual mill before, manual milling sucks. Yes, you can get remarkable accuracy and make some really functional and nice looking parts. However, with a bench top mill like I have, you are forever problem solving, e.g., figuring out how to do things on a small mill that would be straightforward on a full sized, or even a somewhat larger mill. Then, there is the question of how long it takes to mill stuff. Okay, I'm just a self-taught, hobby guy who happens to have a mill and can make stuff with it. I'm by no means a machinist. So, anything I do is bound to take way longer than someone with real skills. Still, most things seem to take forever.

The mounting/interface plates I'm currently working on involve facing, cutting slots, counter boring, drilling 3 sized holes, and threading. In case you may be wondering, I got bids for the having the plates made. The 4 pieces I wanted cut would cost about the same as my mill. Too rich for my blood.

One other thing. For the untrained, like me, a DRO is absolutely essential. No way I could make these plates without it.

Photos of the plates to follow in a few days.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

So you want the measurements of the black bracket? No plans to sell my Saturn 2 as its working great, but in the long run maybe I would have been better off with spending the the $14-15 K for the CAMaster?

[GME]

So you want the measurements of the black bracket?

Yes, please.

No plans to sell my Saturn 2 as its working great, but in the long run maybe I would have been better off with spending the the $14-15 K for the CAMaster?

Only you can answer that question. You got one of the good Saturns, so what would you really gain with the CAMaster? Customer service, if you needed it. A proven machine? Yes. You just have to work out the cost vs. benefit. For the first timer, the customer service aspect alone may be worth the extra cost. In my situation, while I could afford a CAMaster, I was not, and am not, willing to part with that much extra cash. I wasn't willing to part with the extra $$ for the CNCRP PNP electronics either. Fortunately, I'm pretty handy, have an eye for detail and was willing to put in the time researching, designing, sourcing and building. Would I rather spend my time cutting? Sure. However, it's all part of the cost vs. benefit analysis we all go through (to a greater or lesser extent) when we decide to enter the world of CNC.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

I would gain nothing in performance over the Saturn 2 with the CAMaster but it would be ready to go out of the crate when I got it. The Saturn 2 was more like a partly assembled kit. The CNCRP prewired control box and motors worked without tinkering. They have a well thought out system and it works, thousands of customers build their CNC routers and use without any issues. I would rather be cutting and engraving vs running a machine shop building parts. I have done my share of building things.

It was my understanding that FLA used all CNCRP accessories?


Its also been my experience in the past, homemade or shop built has little or no resale value.

[GME]

It was my understanding that FLA used all CNCRP accessories?

I think mostly true. The gantry interface plate on the Saturn 2 is definitely not CNCRP. Also, I believe Fineline either made up new R & P drives, or made major modifications to CNCRP's. That bracket I asked about is also all Fine Line. The silver one from my original machine was CNCRP. Seems like the Saturn series brought about a departure from using CNCRP stuff.

Its also been my experience in the past, homemade or shop built has little or no resale value.

Probably true. I didn't undertake this build with an eye toward resale downstream. If, at the end of the day, it turns out like I hope, I plan to keep it until I'm too old or frail to run it. At that point, I will have gotten my moneys worth.

In the unlikely event I change my mind and want to dispose of it, I can either get a reasonable price for it, or repurpose the 80/20. I've already repurposed some of the 80/20 from my first CNC. Also, 80/20 may have more value in individual pieces than as part of an assembly. 80/20 is expensive stuff.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

So you want the measurements of the black bracket? No plans to sell my Saturn 2 as its working great, but in the long run maybe I would have been better off with spending the the $14-15 K for the CAMaster?

Its a sketch not a drawing, sorry. Bracket is bolted to the bearing mount plate. The metal is .250 thick and it seems to be Imperial or inch dimensions. Hole size, sorry I did not remove any bolts....

[GME]

Its a sketch not a drawing, sorry. Bracket is bolted to the bearing mount plate. The metal is .250 thick and it seems to be Imperial or inch dimensions. Hole size, sorry I did not remove any bolts....

Thank you, Bill. Just what I needed. Bolt size, where it attaches to the mount, can be anything I want it to be. The old mount used a 3/8" bolt. I'll stick with that.

Thanks again,

Gary

[Ntl]

Do you have the gantry plates done yet? Did you think about using gear boxes instead of the pulley reduction? I wonder how durable the drives are that we have. Just curious since you're building it from scratch.

Dan

[stuarttaylor00]

This is great reading thank you Gary - I almost pulled the trigger on the FLA Saturn some time ago, but the stories of warped frames and quality issues scared me off..

Your design is quite similar to what I have been drawing up, I took a lot of inspiration from the CNCRP machines - unfortunately in Australia postage is about 30% of the cost of the machine...

Thanks for sharing!

[GME]

Do you have the gantry plates done yet?
Dan

Nope. Still cutting them. It's slow, slow, slow going.

Did you think about using gear boxes instead of the pulley reduction? I wonder how durable the drives are that we have. Just curious since you're building it from scratch.

I thought about it, but it was too costly - at least for now. At Automation direct, gear boxes for NEMA 34s start at $360 each. That's over a Grand for what may or may not be a net overall gain. They start at a 5:1 ration, which would give me a higher resolution, but I'm not sure that would net out as a gain. I'd also have to design new a completely new mounting system, which I don't want to get into right now. Maybe later. I already have the racks and R&P drives from my first machine. They worked well. Lots of use with no discernible wear. The CNCRP machines, both standard and pro, have used them for years. Folks seem happy with them. My current machine is built to much tighter tolerances than my first. I expect to have maximum life out of the pulley system - whatever that turns out to be.

What kind of life you can expect from your machine is an open question. But then, without fixing the underlying problems, I predict that any type of drive system will wear prematurely.

Gary

[GME]

This is great reading thank you Gary - I almost pulled the trigger on the FLA Saturn some time ago, but the stories of warped frames and quality issues scared me off..

Your design is quite similar to what I have been drawing up, I took a lot of inspiration from the CNCRP machines - unfortunately in Australia postage is about 30% of the cost of the machine...

Thanks for sharing!

Thank you, Stuart. I cannot imagine having a Saturn shipped to Australia only to find out it's seriously defective. Yikes!


Stay tuned. More to come.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

This is great reading thank you Gary - I almost pulled the trigger on the FLA Saturn some time ago, but the stories of warped frames and quality issues scared me off..

Your design is quite similar to what I have been drawing up, I took a lot of inspiration from the CNCRP machines - unfortunately in Australia postage is about 30% of the cost of the machine...

Thanks for sharing!

Not all the Saturn 2 machines are bad, I have one that works fine. No warping or otherwise. You have to realize that the CNCZone Forum only gets the few who have issues, posting. I think if you went over and looked you would maybe find 10 posters who have had negative reviews. Who knows how many have been sold without problems as it seems Nate is always busy and behind. Very poor customer service and shipping delays are the norm, but the machines are decent. Given the fact your overseas I would pass. His machine is very much like the CAMaster, in design, anyway!!

You might look at the CNCRP Pro machines. I have the Plug and Play electronics and control system on mine and I have built panels in a past career. They did a good job and it worked out of the box so to speak. I have since gone from Mach3 to Mach4, and that was a good improvement.

Since the CNCRP is a kit you might get a break on your Import duty and VAT?

[GME]

Progress!!!


I've finished milling the gantry mounting/interface plates. I wish I had a CNC to cut the plates. Would have taken no time, as compared to manual milling. Oh well. Make do with what you have.






These are the angle brace plates. Note that the hole down the center of the two in the foreground are tapered for flat head cap screws. The two lines of holes on the outside of the piece on the right are threaded.



Same pieces, only the ones in the foreground are flipped over. The piece on the left are counterbored.



This photo shows the angle brace assembly mounted to the plate that attaches to the underside of the gantry. The 8 screws go into blind threaded holes. 8 screws are probably overkill, but I took the opportunity to add stiffness to the 3/8" mounting plate. The open area adjacent to the angle brace is where the the plate mounts to the gantry extrusion. Note the six holes adjacent to the black flat head cap screws. They are slots, which allow way more adjustment than I need to square the gantry.



Same as the photo directly above, but at a different angle.





Same as above, only showing the plate and support assembly from the top side.




This photo show where the mounting plate will mount to the gantry. The mounting plate mounts to the bottom of the gantry, while the vertical piece mounts to the front face of the gantry.


Continued next thread

[GME]

Just another angle on the mounting plate and brace.



This photo shows the 3/4" plate on the right, which attaches to the linear rail bearing blocks. Note the 8 counterbored holes down the center. They are where the plate attaches to the bearing blocks. The six holes on the outside edge, in the foreground, are threaded. The four in back are slots. Again, they allow adjustment of gantry square.




Six screw added mounting the upper plate to the lower one. The slots in the upper plate are covered by the washers. Note that the lower plate extends about 1.5" beyond the upper plate. It extends beyond the side of the extrusion and aligns the R&P drive with the gear rack.



This photo shows the entire assembly mounted to the extrusion. Both the upper and lower plates are attached.



In this photo, I rolled the gantry over on its face to give a different perspective.




This shot shows shows the four screws that go through both the lower and upper plates and attach in the gantry extrusion slots. There are slots in the lower plates and plain holes in the upper. Again, this preserves gantry adjustability for square. You can see the ends of the screws passing through from the top. The screws are a little long, but since they don't interfere with anything, I'm going to go ahead and use them. I like the idea of utilizing the full 3/4" thickness of the lower plate. The eight holes left open is where the lower plate attaches to the bearing blocks.

There is a definite assembly order. The angle plate must be assembled first. Then the angle assembly is attached to the upper plate. The whole upper assembly is then attached to the gantry. The lower plate is screwed the the bearing blocks, and the upper assembly is attached to the lower. It all has to do with access, since adding a part out of order results in not being able to get to some of the mounting screws.

You may have noticed that most of the aluminum does not show milling marks from facing. That's because I sanded them out with a random orbit sanding. The two pieces to which the angle plate are mounted still show milling marks. That's because I was concerned with narrow (2") width. There was no way to ensure that my sander would stay flat on the surfaces. It was likely (nearly a sure thing) that I would round over the faces. I didn't want to go there. I could have mounted some paper on a perfectly flat surface, e.g., thick plate glass and worked out the marks that way. While it would worked, this stuff takes a lot of paper changes and doing it totally by hand would have taken forever.

I've read about a number of ways to sand aluminum. Trying without lubricant renders the paper useless in seconds. I've ready about WD-40. For some reason, I couldn't find mine and wasn't going to make a trip into town for one item. Water has been mentioned. My random orbit is electric and my paper wouldn't take hold up to even small amounts of water. Anyway, I'm not risking the shock hazard. So, what to use? Paint thinner. I used the low odor variety. I soaked some paper towel with it, wiped it on and sanded away, I still went though many disks, but the paper lasted a good deal longer than without the thinner. I started with a quick hit of 60, then 150, then 220 and stopped at 320. Did a nice job.

If I had this to do over (thank goodness I don't), I wouldn't have bothered to face the pieces. Rather, I would have just sanded them and called it good. I have some more pieces to make, e.g., end covers for the extrusions. I will not be facing those pieces.

Next up: Installing the 25mm Hiwin HG Linear Rails.