What Part To Start ?


Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 77

Thread: What Part To Start ?

  1. #1

    Default What Part To Start ?

    Long time first time....

    Hi guys, I am in full blown paralysis through analysis in trying to get my first CNC router table started. This table will be used in cabinet making for our spec houses that we build (maybe two a year), and closet systems for clients (about eight a year). I currently build these in my basement with my beloved grandfathers table saw. My plan is to build a welded steel table, 50" x 98" capacity, linear slides, rack and pinion X & Y, ball screw on the Z, 5 - 7HP ATC spindle. I'm fully aware of distortion with a welded table and have no clue (except epoxy) on how to DIY grind it flat. That brings me to my first question, what is the first part of the puzzle to buy? My uneducated mind thinks the spindle and build out from there.

    Thanks for letting me ramble on, and any thoughts or opinions are greatly appreciated.

    -Jake

    Similar Threads:


  2. #2
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Shelby Township
    Posts
    35096
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Do you have plans or a CAD model? That's the first thing you need.

    You need the motion components so that you know all of their locations. But you can usually get that info without the components. Once you have a design, you can buy the steel and start building.
    You don't need the spindle until it's ready to run.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Oakland CA USA
    Posts
    5110
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    I'd say start by building the table. Even if you never finish that machine, a big steel table is bound to come in handy. And in the meantime, you can do more research on the various rail systems, gantry beams, ball screws or rack-and-pinion systems, and spindle options that will make it into the CNC router of your dreams. It's generally recommended to build the frame first, before buying motors and drivers. since things often change in the course of a build - either the machine itself can evolve, your expectations for it might change, or your budget might have to be adjusted up or down.

    Andrew Werby
    https://computersculpture.com/


  4. #4

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    I started out by studying a lot of DIY designs and then I just started drawing in Inkscape. I refined the design over several months with suggestions from the good folks on this forum. Motion components were pretty straightforward...at least for what I was going to use...stepper motors. Get motors with the lowest inductance you can find so your driver voltage stays reasonable. You'll need some sort of drawing I would think. Lots of examples on this site with boo boos and wish I'd had done it differently's.

    You'll have to have the motors, drivers (converts the controller signal to voltages for motor movement), controller (provides the signal to the driver), and computer. Then there's motion control software to control the controller, CAM software to make the gcode from drawings, drawing software to make the drawings.

    I used an all opensource approach...Inkscape for 2D drawings, MakerCAM for drawing conversion to gcode, Universal GCode Sender to send gcode to the controller, and an Arduinio Uno as a controller.

    Just dive in and don't be shy about asking for help or opinions.



  5. #5

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Thanks guys for the input.
    Would Fusion 360 work for modeling the machine? It seems to be all the rage these days on YouTube.
    My thinking originally was to size everything to handle a 25 pound spindle. I have pretty much settled on using 6” square and rectangular tube, 1/4” wall for everything. Then weld 3/8” x 1-1/2” strips to it for rail mounts. It’s getting heavy. Also, I don’t want to waste materials building a table that is ozersized for cabinet sheet material.



  6. #6

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    I really like the base in another thread. It looks like a 5' x 10' ??? Are the vertical grind marks on the upper side rail a sign of internal bracing?

    What Part To Start ?-frame-jpg

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Part To Start ?-frame-jpg  


  7. #7

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    I don't see why Fusion360 wouldn't work. I've started using it, or more to the point, slowly have been learning it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeInCharlotte View Post
    Thanks guys for the input.
    Would Fusion 360 work for modeling the machine? It seems to be all the rage these days on YouTube.
    My thinking originally was to size everything to handle a 25 pound spindle. I have pretty much settled on using 6” square and rectangular tube, 1/4” wall for everything. Then weld 3/8” x 1-1/2” strips to it for rail mounts. It’s getting heavy. Also, I don’t want to waste materials building a table that is ozersized for cabinet sheet material.




  8. #8
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Shelby Township
    Posts
    35096
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    My thinking originally was to size everything to handle a 25 pound spindle.
    I'd design it to handle 100lb loads on the tool in the spindle.



    Also, I don’t want to waste materials building a table that is ozersized for cabinet sheet material.
    I'd probably go for 52"x100" of cutting area. If you only have an inch extra, You may not be able to cut the edge of the sheet with larger tools. And most sheets come 49x97, which only gives you 1/2" to spare.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    East Anglia,England
    Posts
    692
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    That table in post #6 certainly isn't underbuilt in any sense.I remember the saying of a renowned engineer "It isn't hard to build a bridge that won't fall down but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that only just doesn't fall down".



  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    11443
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeInCharlotte View Post
    Long time first time....

    Hi guys, I am in full blown paralysis through analysis in trying to get my first CNC router table started. This table will be used in cabinet making for our spec houses that we build (maybe two a year), and closet systems for clients (about eight a year). I currently build these in my basement with my beloved grandfathers table saw. My plan is to build a welded steel table, 50" x 98" capacity, linear slides, rack and pinion X & Y, ball screw on the Z, 5 - 7HP ATC spindle. I'm fully aware of distortion with a welded table and have no clue (except epoxy) on how to DIY grind it flat. That brings me to my first question, what is the first part of the puzzle to buy? My uneducated mind thinks the spindle and build out from there.

    Thanks for letting me ramble on, and any thoughts or opinions are greatly appreciated.

    -Jake
    Good thought and starting point is the Spindle and Zaxes, one main point do you have the Power supply to drive a spindle that Big, this should be your first requirement, how much power you have single phase or 3phase

    Mactec54


  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    11443
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeInCharlotte View Post
    I really like the base in another thread. It looks like a 5' x 10' ??? Are the vertical grind marks on the upper side rail a sign of internal bracing?

    What Part To Start ?-frame-jpg
    That is steel plate on the sides which gets machined for Linear Rails and helical Rack mounting

    Mactec54


  12. #12

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Good thought and starting point is the Spindle and Zaxes, one main point do you have the Power supply to drive a spindle that Big, this should be your first requirement, how much power you have single phase or 3phase
    I have single phase 200 amp service at the house where I will be building the machine. I figured I would use a VFD or rotary for now. I'm trying to find a piece of property in Charlotte right now to move my equipment to since I have outgrown the basement. Hopefully I can get 3 phase there.

    The plate for the slides and rack and pinion make sense. What about these welds?

    What Part To Start ?-frame-jpg

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Part To Start ?-frame-jpg  


  13. #13
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Shelby Township
    Posts
    35096
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Maybe to hold the middle of the plate down to the tube, rather than just around the perimeter?

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    11443
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeInCharlotte View Post
    I have single phase 200 amp service at the house where I will be building the machine. I figured I would use a VFD or rotary for now. I'm trying to find a piece of property in Charlotte right now to move my equipment to since I have outgrown the basement. Hopefully I can get 3 phase there.

    The plate for the slides and rack and pinion make sense. What about these welds?

    What Part To Start ?-frame-jpg
    If you have a big plate like that and only stich welded on the edges you want to plug weld through the plate as is shown in the photo, and grind it off before machining

    Another way they do it also is short lengths of plate and weld each plate, and fill the gap and grind it ready for machining

    The Tubing wall thickness is 3/8" and 1/2" or metric 10mm and 12mm

    Mactec54


  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3920
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Some companies moments below.

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeInCharlotte View Post
    Thanks guys for the input.
    Would Fusion 360 work for modeling the machine? It seems to be all the rage these days on YouTube.
    Realize that part of that YouTube popularity is aggressive marketing by Autodesk. That may or may not be a bad idea but you need to consider carefully. I’ve only played with Fusion a few times and frankly the good (it is actually very good) don’t outweigh the bad. To put it simply I don’t have 24/7 access to the internet.

    As far as more mundane concerns, learning a CAD program while designing a machine will slow you down. If you are in a hurry to get the machine built that may be a problem. On the other hand learning the software may keep you out of trouble if you can catch errors early. I still find it faster to do a rough sketch on paper Or even cardboard before working the details.
    My thinking originally was to size everything to handle a 25 pound spindle. I have pretty much settled on using 6” square and rectangular tube, 1/4” wall for everything.
    That will get extremely heavy and frankly would have a hard time leaving a basement. For example I recently built(actually retasked a machine frame) in 2” square tube for a work bench and that frame got to be very heavy. Got heavier every time I welded something on to it. That was a bench frame even before the top was put on it.

    I’m not trying to knock a good well designed and stiff frame. Rather just pointing out that simply handling such a frame is a major task. If you have the equipment great, even better is having a local machine shop and heat treat shop to help with the build process.

    One important thing to realize is that after you properly size the tube wall thickness for strength (structural) you need to consider screw holding properties for anything that might get bolted to the tube. 1/4” would be a bit thin for linear rails mounting screws especially if machined for flatness. This is why you see a lot of steel tubing frames have pads welded on so that threads can be ran into them.
    Then weld 3/8” x 1-1/2” strips to it for rail mounts. It’s getting heavy.
    Heavy is right! Heavy = expensive! I’d make sure such a frame really makes sense for your needs. Also transportation of such a large frame is troublesome. I’d almost certainly put the off the build phase until a decent shop is found.
    Also, I don’t want to waste materials building a table that is ozersized for cabinet sheet material.
    Well that might be the case here. I’d prefer smaller cross section tubing for most of the frame. On the other hand a big tube on the gantry is justified,I might even suggest 8” square there. You can accomplish a lot with 3 & 4” square tube.



  16. #16

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Thanks everyone!!
    My plan is to build it in my garage upside down and then flip the base over. I have a bobcat and can rent a forklift if necessary to flip it over. I thought 1/4" was solid, but I see your point on heavier is better. How about 3/8" wall 6" x 8" for the top sides and 1/4" on the rest of the base base?

    I'm itching to start welding for sure, but I have lurked long enough to know when Gerry says you need a plan, you need a plan. The Fusion tutorial book showed up today!



  17. #17
    Member peteeng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    dum dum
    Posts
    1731
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Hi Jake - You are going down a well worn path. People jump in and build a bench then start plugging things in and run out of room and do not achieve their required size. It's really tempting and fun to build the bench, benches are easy to make, machines in total are not. But about 1 year after that and your still not got a machine working and it turns out it can't cut the size you want its really disappointing. I suggest you a) look at the kits that exist and if you can buy one then do it. You will be cutting material much earlier than developing a machine yourself b) look at existent machines very carefully of the size you want and compare the footprint to actual cutting size it will surprise you how much bigger the footprint is to actual cutting size c) Do not build anything until you have it sorted it on CAD. There are many knock on effects of changing various things and it's much easier to sort this on CAD vs in reality. d) read some of the build threads right through. It takes over a year (perhaps 2) to build a machine in your "spare" time. If you want to make sawdust on a timeline buy a kit or search for second hand!! In one of my threads I'm designing a machine from scratch from the spindle back vs from the bench up. It's already bigger than expected and I'm not at the bench yet.

    Also since you are a cabinet maker? and obviously have timber tools consider a plywood machine and bench. These are very successful for a cabinet making task and you can then make you next metal machine on that, if you need to....the secret with timber machines is to seal them very well to stop moisture ingress/egress Cheers Peter



  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    11443
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeInCharlotte View Post
    Thanks everyone!!
    My plan is to build it in my garage upside down and then flip the base over. I have a bobcat and can rent a forklift if necessary to flip it over. I thought 1/4" was solid, but I see your point on heavier is better. How about 3/8" wall 6" x 8" for the top sides and 1/4" on the rest of the base base?

    I'm itching to start welding for sure, but I have lurked long enough to know when Gerry says you need a plan, you need a plan. The Fusion tutorial book showed up today!
    That will work fine for material, yes it is always good to do a drawing even if it is just a sketch to start with and more detailed once you get into it

    Make sure you have everything level when you start putting that big frame together especially the top, you don't want any twist in it either once those big tubes are together they don't move very much so you only get one chance to get it right

    Mactec54


  19. #19

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    Fusion is a lot of fun. NOT!!! I have spent last few nights studying how the big manufacture's build their machines looking for inspiration. I really like the Onsrud machine base for its simplicity. Their designs seem to have changed from side mount linear slides to top mount. They also are building a triangle foot base now instead of the standard rectangle tube they used before. The triangle seems like a lot more welding to me so I will stick with the rectangle. I am shooting for a 34" table to to floor design with 10" of gantry clearance.

    It's by no means done, but I thought I would post it now and get some feedback.


    What Part To Start ?-table-design-jpg

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Part To Start ?-table-design-jpg  


  20. #20
    Member Ntl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    621
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: What Part To Start ?

    That's one heavy machine lots of special order steel $$$$$ . I'm curious when it's done where the cost comes in vs buying one? The small machine I bought when I did a cost of the material it didn't make sense to build one vs buy one. Even then it came in a lot higher than I thought it would.

    I guess if you have really good pricing from your supplier or already have the material just laying around from a old job then you could save some dough. Are you building vs buying just for the experience, or do you think you will save money?

    I just always wanted to ask someone that built a industrial router if they did it just because they could. Or if they did it because they thought it would be cheaper. Not being negative by any means, I'm just curious since steel is so expensive. You're going to have probably 8-10k just in steel for that machine.

    I know that the industrial machines are very expensive, but when you buy it you have a warranty. I'm guessing you're going to be over 20k with labor and all the parts pieces and electronics and that's probably on the low end. Just a word of advice after doing a build recently, add 25-30% to the estimated cost. Unless you have done it before and really know exactly what your BOM consists of. Don't just wing it like I did because I guarantee you will be underestimating how much all the little things cost.

    Good luck and I look forward to seeing the finished machine, it's going to be a beast.

    Dan



Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


About CNCzone.com

    We are the largest and most active discussion forum for manufacturing industry. The site is 100% free to join and use, so join today!

Follow us on


Our Brands

What Part To Start ?

What Part To Start ?

What Part To Start ?